2 stroke ? 4 stroke ?

[Desiderata]

We're gathering info on small outboard engines to power a 9-10 ft. inflatable (yet to be chosen as well). Thereare some differences in opinion about 2 stroke vs 4 stroke. With 2 strokes, theres the hassle with mixing or at least maintaining oil for the fuel- but 2strokes are lighter to carry and seem to develop more power per pound. Offering of 4 stroke engines (3-4 hrsprw) seem to be gaining popularity in that market- but reportedly can't be upended or even laid down (in the back of the truck for ei for fear of crank case oil contaminating powerhead. Could this really be true?
We need a tender that is lightweight and foldable for weekends on our E-27.

 

[wurzner]

Hmmm, can't be laid down...not sure why that would be. The weight issue is directly proportional to the lack of weight in your wallet...4 strokes are more bucks. That being said, in the low hp band you are talking about, they aren't too expensive.

I have never owned a 4 stroke outboard, but have in other applications like motorcycles and so forth. I would definately go with the 4 stroke for noise, less smoke, and dependability.


Shaun

 

[Bolo]

I vote for a Honda!

Hot ticket: We use a Mercury inflatable about the size you're thinking about. Just a real "vanilla" dingy. No hard or inflatable bottom and just big enough to hold three adults. I push it along with a Honda 2HP (four-stroke) engine.

The combination of the dingy size and just a 2hp is perfect for my wife and I when we go cruising. We just wanted something to get us from point A to point B, which usually meant from our anchorage to the nearby shore. The dingy is small enough so we can tie it down to the foredeck of our E32-3 with room to spare to get to the anchor or we can easily tow it. When we launch or pull the dingy up onto the fore deck I use the spinnaker pole topping lift. The Honda 2hp is small enough to carry around and usually my wife hands it to me while I'm in the dinghy, but I always tie a line off to it just in case it slips over the side. Thank God, that has never happened. I (and she) can carry the engine with one hand using the well designed handle at the front of the engine.

You can lay the engine down on it's side for transport in the trunk of a car (or in the back of a truck) without spilling any oil and it even has small "feet" built into the case for that purpose. We don't go speeding around in our dinghy but it always gets us to where we want to go. I use to have an old Evinrude (2 stroke) which was noisy and smoked. It worked OK but mixing the gas and oil was a real pain. We're also planning on getting a small Honda generator that we saw at the boat show, which is also a four stroke, so we can stay out "on the hook" longer without having to go to a marina to charge up or run the diesel. So having to use the same fuel for both is a plus for us.

 

[sleather]

No Problemo

Hot ticket, When it comes to inflatables I would tend to make an exception to my love of 4strokes. The weight would seem to be the "bigger" issue.
As far as transportability my Honda 8-4str, which I use as a kicker on my fishing boat, is "always" carried "in" my car when trailering. No problems, just follow the recommended placement.

 

[rwthomas1]

Consider this:
Two strokes=lighter, more powerful but more emissions-they are also no longer made/banned, being phased out by the EPA. Generally cheaper however the used market prices have remained high due to demand from folks that don't want to tote a heavy four stroke. They are thirsty.

Four strokes=heavier, clean emissions, quiet, run smooth but more expensive. Use very little fuel.

Currently I have a 10ft inflatable with an older 8hp two stroke Mariner that runs like a Swiss watch. I consider the ability/power to plane the dinghy important. I have tried a smaller outboard, a 4hp and while it was adequate it did not push the inflatable very well against a 15-20kt wind and over long distances. The 8hp is the most I want to muscle onboard and I will be sorry to see it go as the 8hp 4 strokes are even heavier. I will likely end up with a 4-5hp four stroke and not be able to plane off the dink. Everything is a compromise.

The four strokes are considerably more complex than their two stroke brothers. One of my concerns is longevity. I am guessing that in 10 years the replacement rate will far exceed two strokes as there is a lot more to go wrong.

Yes the 4 strokes require they only be laid down on one side due to the crankcase oil. I can only see this being a problem for those going offshore who want to store the outboard at some angle in a locker. I would think that there would be a way in almost any boat to accommodate this. RT

 

[sleather]

Longevity

The four strokes are considerably more complex than their two stroke brothers. One of my concerns is longevity. I am guessing that in 10 years the replacement rate will far exceed two strokes as there is a lot more to go wrong.

My '79 E23 came w/ a '79 Honda 8-4str. and I didn't replace it "in kind" until '97.
The only thing that was wrong w/ it was the power-shaft into the lower unit "galled" and wouldn't maintain a seal($300 fix). It "never" had any issues prior to that!
It's in the basement(bathed in oil) awaiting a "rebirth"!!!!

Also, my engine gets used "alot" as I have a 2 mile round trip to get to the "sailing grounds" unless the winds cooperate. It also serves as a "kicker" on my Great Lakes fishing boat!

 

[Shaggy]

Hot Ticket -

I used to sell the Honda 4-stroke outboards years ago. They were very reliable, well-made and yes, heavy.

Yes you can lay them down, but only on the side specifically designated (the Hondas had little metal feet protruding on the lay-down side). If you lay the motor down any other way, the crankcase oil will flood the cylinder(s) and temporarily trash your motor.

Had a client not understand this concept, even after explicit instructions, and managed to strand himself in the gulf of Mexico for many, many hours...not a happy sailor!

I don't personally own one now, as I have not yet bought a dink.

Anyone had any luck with rechargeable battery-operated outboards? Probably only useful for slow-speed, short-range use.

What are your specific needs? Good luck with your research.

 

[Seth]

Surprise

The new 2 strokes from Evinrude (Bombardier) are the cleanest outboards in the business-I am in the emissions testing biz and they have been recognized globally for this achievement.
Check out www.evinrude.com, and go to press releases..
Honda is not happy after all the hype about how clean the 4 strokes are. The 2 strokes do all of this without the APC equipment 4 strokes need.
The only bummer is I think the smallest of these engines is about 65 hp..

Cheers,
S

 

[sleather]

Hang On!

The only bummer is I think the smallest of these engines is about 65 hp..

They do make a 40hp-E-tec, makes for one "kick-butt" inflatable!

 

[Guy Stevens]

Not to disagree but,

When we were out cruising the only outboards that consistently ran were two strokes. All of the four strokes were unreliable. This was about 4 years ago. They were heavy really heavy, which meant that they needed more HP to do the same thing as the lighter engines needed.

I can count without thinking about 5 boats that got rid of 4 strokes and went back to 2 strokes because they were sick and tired of trying to fix the four strokes.

YMMV.
Guy

 

[Desiderata]

wide ranging thoughts

Wow, Opinions on this topic are wide-ranging. As always, our site comes to my rescue with useful information. Thanks to all for your input!

Mike & Cheri

 

[sleather]

More like confusion!

Mike,You're being too polite!LOL ----I'm confused!
If you got any useful info out of these varied responses then,GOOD!

It used to be that Yamaha 2 strokes were the way to go, especially in "remote locales".
Now they don't even market a 2 stroke below 8hp(too big)
In fact ALL the "baby" 2 strokes have been "phased out"!

The 4stroke bashing, I DO NOT understand! I (and many others) have had "very good" service from them!
The weight issue is a valid argument(40% heavier), but it's a moot point!
It appears that for your application you have NO choice, unless you want to shop around for a used 2-stroke of ? condition & reliability!

GOOD LUCK w/ your NEW 4-Stroke!

P.S. The easiest way to store your "baby" 4-stroke is "upright"(no oil hassels) on a bracket, attached to a stanchion. You could even rig a GIZMO to use it as a "backup" kicker(inboard?)

 

[rwthomas1]

I wouldn't consider this "4 stroke bashing" at all. Each engine type has its merits and problems. 2 cycles are inherently more reliable. There are simply less moving parts. For example a single cylinder 2 cycle has THREE moving parts in the powerhead. A twin has FIVE. 4 cycles have easily 3 times that amount. I have lost 2 cycles overboard. Simply pull them up, remove the plugs, flush thoroughly, fresh fuel and they usually start right up. At least the older ones did. The new computer controlled may not be like that but I know for a fact that flushing out a 4 cycle is much more involved. I have no doubt that many folks have gotten great service from 4 cycles. Yes we are stuck with them for the future. I have my eye out for nice used 2 cycles though. When I see what I want I will purchase and pickle the engine until I need it. If I get a couple good engines now I should be good for 10-20 years or so. RT

 

[sleather]

Apples & Oranges!

Each engine type has its merits and problems. 2 cycles are inherently more reliable. There are simply less moving parts..........If I get a couple good engines now I should be good for 10-20 years or so. RT

After having a '98-175hp Johnson Salt(2-stroke)-FRY w/o warning in '03, and the replacement '00-150hp Evinrude Ficht(2-stroke) cost me a "half-season" of boating and OVER $1,500 in repairs! I'm still open minded enough to "consider" purchasing a Evinrude E-TEC, sometime in the future.

Modern 2-strokes have been able to comply w/ EPA requirements only by adding "high tech/prone to failure" components(failed oil injectors in the 175)! Hence NO small 2-strokes.--Gone are the days of the "simple" 2-stroke.

That being said my single "original" Honda 8 was good for 18 yrs. w/ NO problems! That's less than $100/yr & 2/3 the gas!
Modern 4-strokes are routinely exceeding 2,000hrs of operation w/ NO problems(computer downloads)!

GREEN is HERE, whether we like it or not, and in some locations(Lake Tahoe & some Yacht Basins) it's "illegal" to use older 2-strokes(which I admit were reliable, but stinky)!
I sure don't miss the 2-stroke "slime" in my docking area!

Sideline, I'm thinking about giving up on "outboards" PERIOD! and converting my E23 to"electric"! I'm also thinking about selling my OB powerboat and "reverting" to a V8 straight inboard(something I can work on). I'll still need a Honda 8 for a "kicker" though(fish must be caught).-----Enough said!

 

[Bill Upchurch]

Hot Ticket

Do you have an appetite for another opinion? I bought a new Tohatsu 4 horse about two years ago for my Cal 20. You can't buy a new 2 stroke in California. I bought a new motor because I wanted to make sure it would start with one or two pulls. I have had my share of lawn mowers and old English motor cycles that required a few hundred pulls or kicks to start. I love the Tohatsu but it is heavy. A few months ago I bought a new 3 and a half horse two stroke Mercury for the ten foot Zodiac inflatable that we use with Golden Girl, the E35 II. I bought the small Merc because of weight. It does not have a reverse gear so it is very light and easy to handle. It pushes the Inflatable just fine and the grand kids can handle it without me having to worry too much about them.

 

[Desiderata]

We took the plunge

Thanks again to everyone for all the input. In anticipation of a 4-5 day jaunt to Boca Grande or thereabouts, we found a closeout on 2007 a 2hp Honda (4 stroke) for $750 and couldn't pass it up. Then found a new 9' Bombard Typhoon inflatable by Zodiac on sale for $900 and snapped it up. The most influential response we felt mirroring our circumstances was from Bolo regarding my wife's ability to lift the engine etc. They also sold us on the Honda brand being air cooled and avoiding the problems with the (market prevalent) raw water cooled Tohatsu. Thanks Bob & Beverly.
Whe we asked the Tohatsu salesman about the lack of 2 stokes available, he said that the EPA had banded any 2 strokes below 8 hp starting in 2006.
I must admit tho, the testosteroned side of me liked Sleathers' idea of a 40hp. E-tec. LOVED the "scared" icon. Thanks Steve!

Mike & Cheri McNulty

 

[sleather]

2 vs 4

ENJOY!:clap: Air cooled? WOW! Never read the fine print in the Honda brochure!
May you enjoy your Honda as long as I have!

Sorry if we got a "bit" off track, this 2 vs 4 thing is one of MY triggers

 

[rwthomas1]

After having a '98-175hp Johnson Salt(2-stroke)-FRY w/o warning in '03, and the replacement '00-150hp Evinrude Ficht(2-stroke) cost me a "half-season" of boating and OVER $1,500 in repairs! I'm still open minded enough to "consider" purchasing a Evinrude E-TEC, sometime in the future.

Modern 2-strokes have been able to comply w/ EPA requirements only by adding "high tech/prone to failure" components(failed oil injectors in the 175)! Hence NO small 2-strokes.--Gone are the days of the "simple" 2-stroke.

That being said my single "original" Honda 8 was good for 18 yrs. w/ NO problems! That's less than $100/yr & 2/3 the gas!
Modern 4-strokes are routinely exceeding 2,000hrs of operation w/ NO problems(computer downloads)!

GREEN is HERE, whether we like it or not, and in some locations(Lake Tahoe & some Yacht Basins) it's "illegal" to use older 2-strokes(which I admit were reliable, but stinky)!
I sure don't miss the 2-stroke "slime" in my docking area!

Sideline, I'm thinking about giving up on "outboards" PERIOD! and converting my E23 to"electric"! I'm also thinking about selling my OB powerboat and "reverting" to a V8 straight inboard(something I can work on). I'll still need a Honda 8 for a "kicker" though(fish must be caught).-----Enough said!

Green is here? Hey, whatever floats your boat. Buy and use what you like and I'll do the same. In fact, I think I may just fire up my 1969 British Seagull that runs on a 10-to-1 oil mix to celebrate. RT

 

[Jeff Asbury]

Better late than never.

Better late than never. Late in jumping into this debate but I do have some experience with newer 4 strokes. Before I bought my E-27 I had a 22' trailer sailor. When I bought the boat it had a corroded and frozen up old Chrysler 6 hp OB. That old motor was toast, so it was time to go shopping. That was 2001 and California had just outlawed the sale of 2 Strokes. I could have bought one out of State and saved a bundle compared the cost of a 4 Stroke. I was impatient and wanted a new motor, so I bought a Yamaha 4 hp. All the research I did at the time suggested that a 4 hp 4 Stroke put out as much torque as a 6 hp 2 Stroke. I bought a long shaft to power the little 1800 lb 22' trailer sailor. I motored all the way off shore to Santa Cruz Island more than once with that little Yamaha (18 miles and it took about 4.5 hours running).

You can transport or store it laying down, but it has to be handle (or tiller / throttle) side down.

I still have this motor 7 years later and I use it all the time with my Achilles 8'6" dink. It has been incredibly reliable and always starts even cold with no more than 3 pulls. Heck, the Coast Guard uses them (only bigger) out here in So Cal. I have seen a lot more trouble with the 2 Strokes friends of mine have. It doesn't matter what brand it is. Often carburetor problems because of bad oil & gas mixtures.

I love not having to mix fuel.

IMHO.

 

[sleather]

Green is here? Hey, whatever floats your boat. Buy and use what you like and I'll do the same. In fact, I think I may just fire up my 1969 British Seagull that runs on a 10-to-1 oil mix to celebrate. RT

The Seagull was the only British engine that EVER ran right!LOL Had one, loved it!
Hope it starts! Just don't take it to Tahoe, if it does start!