HerbertFriedman
Member III
How do you inspect the chain plates on a E34 with the triaxial grid hull. I cannot even see the attachment points in the hull let alone inspect them for corrosion.
Chainplate Inspection [Master Thread]
- Thread starter HerbertFriedman
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Charlie B.
Member II
Do your chainplates connect to a large stainless rod below deck?
Last year I had some suspicious white powder appearing on the upholstery under the chainplates. As a result, I spent a great deal of time exploring the chainplates connections.
The chainplates on the Olson 34 are deck mounted and through bolted to a thick (1") piece of aluminum plate which is in turn connected to a large stainless rod which is threaded to a big glassed in stainless cylinder (nut) hidden beneath the settee berth. Access to these areas required removal of the headliner and some careful sawing around the rod where it entered the settee back. What I found was a very solid connection to the hull grid system.
However, the origin of the white substance was a slight deck leak that was severely oxidizing the chainplate aluminum backing plate. This connecting plate was being attacked galvanically by dissimilar metals and presence of salt water. Both plates showed signs of oxidation and gave me some concern that they might fail. I ended up removing the port and starboard plates and replacing them with custom made stainless ones.
If you have the same type of chainplates that I described, I would definitely look at the under deck aluminum plate that connects the chainplate to the rod. I believe these plates were made by Navtec and were commonly used in the late 1980's.
Last year I had some suspicious white powder appearing on the upholstery under the chainplates. As a result, I spent a great deal of time exploring the chainplates connections.
The chainplates on the Olson 34 are deck mounted and through bolted to a thick (1") piece of aluminum plate which is in turn connected to a large stainless rod which is threaded to a big glassed in stainless cylinder (nut) hidden beneath the settee berth. Access to these areas required removal of the headliner and some careful sawing around the rod where it entered the settee back. What I found was a very solid connection to the hull grid system.
However, the origin of the white substance was a slight deck leak that was severely oxidizing the chainplate aluminum backing plate. This connecting plate was being attacked galvanically by dissimilar metals and presence of salt water. Both plates showed signs of oxidation and gave me some concern that they might fail. I ended up removing the port and starboard plates and replacing them with custom made stainless ones.
If you have the same type of chainplates that I described, I would definitely look at the under deck aluminum plate that connects the chainplate to the rod. I believe these plates were made by Navtec and were commonly used in the late 1980's.
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HerbertFriedman
Member III
thanks for sharing your experience. On my E34, not an Olsen design, I do not see any plate but it may be hidden under the headliner but I will see if I can feel any plate. On my E34, it looks like the rods attach somehow to the chain plates and then the rods go directly to the grid system in the hull. How did you access the connection of the rods to the grid system, what did you have to remove to see them?
Charlie B.
Member II
I am not familiar with the interior of the E34, so I will describe how it looks on mine. Attached are two pictures that show the rod attachment at the chain plate and also how it disappears behind the settee berth. All I did was enlarge the hole where it enters the seat back. For my project, I had to remove the rod. This allowed me to look down the hole and see the fiberglass that holds the cylinder nut for the rod. I did not have a need to tear into it anymore than that.
After removing the through bolts going through the deck, plate and chainplate I was able to turn the rod and completely unthread it. It took a lot of penetrating oil and leverage to move it. Stainless is notorious for galling and stripping threads, not for the faint of heart. As I mentioned above, fiberglass looked solid from my vantage point, which was a relief considering the condition of the aluminum plate under the deck.
Where do you keep your boat on the Bay? We keep ours in Richmond.
After removing the through bolts going through the deck, plate and chainplate I was able to turn the rod and completely unthread it. It took a lot of penetrating oil and leverage to move it. Stainless is notorious for galling and stripping threads, not for the faint of heart. As I mentioned above, fiberglass looked solid from my vantage point, which was a relief considering the condition of the aluminum plate under the deck.
Where do you keep your boat on the Bay? We keep ours in Richmond.
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HerbertFriedman
Member III
your O34 looks very similar to my E34, at least in the construction aspects. Two questions, in the first photo, that ugly grey mass is the oxidized aluminum plate, how does the rod actually connect to it, threads? and second, your headliner looks like mine, did you just cut it to expose the aluminum plate (probably no zipper there) and if so how did you repair it after the chain plate repair.
I am at Brickyard Cove, B34, friedman33@comcast.net, let's meet to compare notes.
I am at Brickyard Cove, B34, friedman33@comcast.net, let's meet to compare notes.
Charlie B.
Member II
Sorry the photos are sideways. I guess you figured out which way was up.
Yep, that oxidized block is the aluminum plate! The rod has a "cold molded" head on one end and the other is threaded. The rod slides through a hole in the middle of the plate and sits in a socket that allows the rod to move into the proper angle for attachment to the cylinder nut. In order to remove the plate, I used a torque wrench to turn the nuts on the 4 bolts. The bolts were impossible to remove and were made of bronze. This added to the cocktail of dissimilar metals. In addition, I found out that the chainplate and bolts were 5200 bonded to the deck! Taking a tip from someone at KKMI, I used a grinding wheel to remove the bolt heads which enabled me to bang the bolts through from up above. Once apart, it was possible to remove the rod!
I took this opportunity to replace the original headliner with Naugahyde that has been contact cemented to plastic corrugated "sign board" (purchased at Tap Plastics). The board is just like corrugated box material except it is waterproof. I covered the seams where the boards meet with trim that matches the rest of the interior.
I keep my boat at RYC which should make it easy to compare notes. I will send you a separate email.
Charlie
Yep, that oxidized block is the aluminum plate! The rod has a "cold molded" head on one end and the other is threaded. The rod slides through a hole in the middle of the plate and sits in a socket that allows the rod to move into the proper angle for attachment to the cylinder nut. In order to remove the plate, I used a torque wrench to turn the nuts on the 4 bolts. The bolts were impossible to remove and were made of bronze. This added to the cocktail of dissimilar metals. In addition, I found out that the chainplate and bolts were 5200 bonded to the deck! Taking a tip from someone at KKMI, I used a grinding wheel to remove the bolt heads which enabled me to bang the bolts through from up above. Once apart, it was possible to remove the rod!
I took this opportunity to replace the original headliner with Naugahyde that has been contact cemented to plastic corrugated "sign board" (purchased at Tap Plastics). The board is just like corrugated box material except it is waterproof. I covered the seams where the boards meet with trim that matches the rest of the interior.
I keep my boat at RYC which should make it easy to compare notes. I will send you a separate email.
Charlie
HerbertFriedman
Member III
I would like to meet to compare notes,do you ever do the Wednesday beer can race, or could we meet some other time. Contact me at friedman33@comcast.net. thanks,
Charlie B.
Member II
Additional photos of Olson 34 chainplates
Fred,
These photos are all that I have. Sorry they are sideways.
The two photos are of the underside of the deck where the chainplates attach. One shot shows what the deck looks like after the bolts, plate and rods were removed.
The second shows the finished chainplate. After this picture was taken, I filled the holes with epoxy after reaming out the damp balsa core. I added a few layers of glass mat for additional support before connecting it all again. The caulking was polysulfide based and I sealed the deck area parts completely and dabbed the bolts before attaching the lower support plate. My plan was to be able to disassemble everything if any leaks develop.
Charlie
Fred,
These photos are all that I have. Sorry they are sideways.
The two photos are of the underside of the deck where the chainplates attach. One shot shows what the deck looks like after the bolts, plate and rods were removed.
The second shows the finished chainplate. After this picture was taken, I filled the holes with epoxy after reaming out the damp balsa core. I added a few layers of glass mat for additional support before connecting it all again. The caulking was polysulfide based and I sealed the deck area parts completely and dabbed the bolts before attaching the lower support plate. My plan was to be able to disassemble everything if any leaks develop.
Charlie
I rotated the pix. Same deck/shroud set up on our boat.
Nice to see the way it's done, since I was not there when the yard removed ours to check for moisture, in '02.
Loren
Nice to see the way it's done, since I was not there when the yard removed ours to check for moisture, in '02.
Loren
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HerbertFriedman
Member III
thanks Charlie for the photos, detailed explanation and nice ride on the Wed nite race. The Olsen/Ericson 34 and the E34 are indeed quite similar in constructions details. My E34 has the the four side stays set up differently, two in the middle, one fore and one aft, so if mine leak, there is the possibility of having to change 6 blocks not just two, ugggh. I have no indication of any leak, or appearance of white powder, probably aluminum oxide, unfortunate that Ericson would have chosen to use aluminum blocks with SS rods and deck fitting, just asking for trouble. I can access the aluminum blocks via the zippers in the headliner but I can only reach them, not see them but I do have a nifty endoscope camera and I will look shortly.
Thanks again.
Thanks again.
Charlie B.
Member II
Great sailing with you also! We managed to win a bottle of wine for our efforts.
Endoscope, the sight of one of those makes me cringe! :0
Hope what you find down there looks solid. Please share pictures if you are able to get any.
Charlie
Chain plate U bolt and tie rod block corrosion, E-34
I've read the posts on this issue and appreciate all your efforts. I have a 1988 E-34 and I've been finding corrosion dust beneath my wood trim on the shelf for some time now at some of the rods. I investigated further and have found that I have some visible corrosion issues around the outer edges of the tie rod blocks where they meet the underside of the deck. I can't see inside the block where the tie rod is inserted, but suspect same. Some of the blocks show very little corrosion, the two aft chain plate blocks show the most extensive corrosion damage, but not as bad as the O-34 pictured. All the rods feel solid, no movement. I've also followed the posted link to Rig-Rite and tried to get a quote on line, but one of the requested numbers kept coming back as "incorrect format" and it wouldn't take my submission. I've left a phone message for contact.
I'm interested in learning what has happened with Herbert Friedman's repair efforts and if he has torn into the panel behind the settee to get into the tie rod U-bolts and what he found inside the tie rod blocks when they were pulled. Also, I can only see one stamped number on the tie rod blocks that Rig-Rite asks for and that is for the aft ones (13S). Does any one have info on Rig-Rite vs. Garhauer bolts. I'm a big fan of Garhauer in general. It just seems to me that if I'm going to replace one on each side now's the time to do them all.
I'm on the boat in Barra de Navidad, Mx, and will have to travel several hundred miles to get to a yard for assistance. And I'll have to order parts in the States and then fly home to get them and hand carry back. Any and all comments and information are appreciated. Thanks for your help.
I've read the posts on this issue and appreciate all your efforts. I have a 1988 E-34 and I've been finding corrosion dust beneath my wood trim on the shelf for some time now at some of the rods. I investigated further and have found that I have some visible corrosion issues around the outer edges of the tie rod blocks where they meet the underside of the deck. I can't see inside the block where the tie rod is inserted, but suspect same. Some of the blocks show very little corrosion, the two aft chain plate blocks show the most extensive corrosion damage, but not as bad as the O-34 pictured. All the rods feel solid, no movement. I've also followed the posted link to Rig-Rite and tried to get a quote on line, but one of the requested numbers kept coming back as "incorrect format" and it wouldn't take my submission. I've left a phone message for contact.
I'm interested in learning what has happened with Herbert Friedman's repair efforts and if he has torn into the panel behind the settee to get into the tie rod U-bolts and what he found inside the tie rod blocks when they were pulled. Also, I can only see one stamped number on the tie rod blocks that Rig-Rite asks for and that is for the aft ones (13S). Does any one have info on Rig-Rite vs. Garhauer bolts. I'm a big fan of Garhauer in general. It just seems to me that if I'm going to replace one on each side now's the time to do them all.
I'm on the boat in Barra de Navidad, Mx, and will have to travel several hundred miles to get to a yard for assistance. And I'll have to order parts in the States and then fly home to get them and hand carry back. Any and all comments and information are appreciated. Thanks for your help.
Plan B ?
Regarding those original aluminum pieces. They look like bar stock to me, and that caused me to ponder if one were might be removed and sent over to Garhauer to be duplicated/machined up in SS.
While galling might possibly be a concern when torquing the inside tie rod, you could put some lube in the socket when you assemble it. The nature of the connection is that you likely will never again have to mess with it anyhow.
Loren
Regarding those original aluminum pieces. They look like bar stock to me, and that caused me to ponder if one were might be removed and sent over to Garhauer to be duplicated/machined up in SS.
While galling might possibly be a concern when torquing the inside tie rod, you could put some lube in the socket when you assemble it. The nature of the connection is that you likely will never again have to mess with it anyhow.
Loren
HerbertFriedman
Member III
[h=1]chain plate inspection of E34[/h]
I never did expose the underside of the chain plate blocks, I never actually had a problem just was curious as to how to access them and the attachment to the hull. But in the above thread, there is fellow Charlie B with an olsen 34 of about the same year who has accessed both the blocks and the hull attachment points. Charlie is still active so I would contact him via his e-mail.
I never did expose the underside of the chain plate blocks, I never actually had a problem just was curious as to how to access them and the attachment to the hull. But in the above thread, there is fellow Charlie B with an olsen 34 of about the same year who has accessed both the blocks and the hull attachment points. Charlie is still active so I would contact him via his e-mail.
Reply to both
Thanks for your responses. I was taking a break, it's 89 in the cabin, so topside with a cold beverage of the same name and it's much nicer outside in the breeze. I will contact Charlie B if he does not post. I'm new at this posting thing for this forum, and it's very worthwhile. I'm thinking if I get the Rig-Rite aluminum replacement parts, of which the tie rod block is also anodized aluminum like the original, I'll coat it with Lanocote or similar on installation. This boat is almost 27 years old, so even with the anodized aluminum that takes it well past my life time, just requires full disclosure upon sale.
As to the Friedman post lucky you, you didn't have to pull and replace. I'm assuming you inspected from below as much as you could, so my question is how much corrosion damage did you see around those blocks? I have no idea if this rig is safe for 1 day or 10,000, but suspect it is not in imminent danger of coming down. I'm thinking of continuing south perhaps next year, if not that then at some point I'll have to 'bash' it back up, those are my real concerns.
Thanks again, and any thing else you can think of.
Dave
s/v Pacifico
Barra de Navidad
Thanks for your responses. I was taking a break, it's 89 in the cabin, so topside with a cold beverage of the same name and it's much nicer outside in the breeze. I will contact Charlie B if he does not post. I'm new at this posting thing for this forum, and it's very worthwhile. I'm thinking if I get the Rig-Rite aluminum replacement parts, of which the tie rod block is also anodized aluminum like the original, I'll coat it with Lanocote or similar on installation. This boat is almost 27 years old, so even with the anodized aluminum that takes it well past my life time, just requires full disclosure upon sale.
As to the Friedman post lucky you, you didn't have to pull and replace. I'm assuming you inspected from below as much as you could, so my question is how much corrosion damage did you see around those blocks? I have no idea if this rig is safe for 1 day or 10,000, but suspect it is not in imminent danger of coming down. I'm thinking of continuing south perhaps next year, if not that then at some point I'll have to 'bash' it back up, those are my real concerns.
Thanks again, and any thing else you can think of.
Dave
s/v Pacifico
Barra de Navidad
stainless vs aluminum blocks
If your U-bolt chain plates are not leaking at the deck the stainless and aluminum will not have the third element (salt water) necessary to cause the galvanic corrosion that caused the trouble in the first place.
If your deck is leaking you should fix it straight away anyhow, because it will cause more problems than just some corrosion.... deck core rot, bulkhead rotting, mold, ugliness, loss of friends willing to sail with you, ect.
That being said.... I too thought it would have been nice if they could have been built from staleness originally, but the part would have cost Ericson at least six times the the price and people would have bought a Catalina instead.
If properly maintained they should not be a problem, so I wouldn't be able to justify fixing something wasn't going to give me further troubles.
Some Lanocote between the dissimilar metals would help keep them isolated though.
If your U-bolt chain plates are not leaking at the deck the stainless and aluminum will not have the third element (salt water) necessary to cause the galvanic corrosion that caused the trouble in the first place.
If your deck is leaking you should fix it straight away anyhow, because it will cause more problems than just some corrosion.... deck core rot, bulkhead rotting, mold, ugliness, loss of friends willing to sail with you, ect.
That being said.... I too thought it would have been nice if they could have been built from staleness originally, but the part would have cost Ericson at least six times the the price and people would have bought a Catalina instead.
If properly maintained they should not be a problem, so I wouldn't be able to justify fixing something wasn't going to give me further troubles.
Some Lanocote between the dissimilar metals would help keep them isolated though.
Your aluminum blocks would have to be in quite bad shape to fail. (Not saying they're not) The u-bolts that pass through them however, should be replaced or at least closely inspected on a regular schedule along with your standing rigging. There are several documented instances here on the site where they have failed.
Several of us have replaced them.
http://www.ericsonyachts.org/infoex...te-U-Bolts-and-Replacements&p=90313#post90313
Several of us have replaced them.
http://www.ericsonyachts.org/infoex...te-U-Bolts-and-Replacements&p=90313#post90313
Alan Gomes
Sustaining Partner
Agreed. I think it might be worth adding that testing the u-bolts with a dye penetrant might be prudent vs. relying on a visual inspection alone. Another option might be sending them out for magnaflux testing. Sometimes small cracks may be difficult to spot with the naked eye
A few of mine looked dodgy through a simple visual inspection. At $35/U-bolt to just replace them I couldn't see messing with testing the others, even though perhaps some of them could have been reused.
Thanks for your comments. I have not seen any leaks at the deck or underneath, but obviously there has been some over the years or I wouldn't be in this fix. I just tossed my dried out tube of silicone sealant and have Life Caulk and Marine "Goop", on hand. I have found the "Goop" product to be a great sealant and adhesive, not sure about this application though, but I swear by it as a general fix all. I have some Permatex liquid silicone windshield sealant too, which might work very well to get into the crevice of the U bolt at the deck joint, then top with something heavier. Other than that it's an hour's bus ride over to Manzanillo to Casa de Pescador to see what they have. No West Marine or similar handy here.
One of the things I'm concerned about is getting access to the "tie rod nut" assembly at the base of the tie rod to be able to put liquid wrench or similar on it and heat or tap to get the tie rod to break free without galling. That connection is hidden behind the back board of my settee and I'll have to cut or disassemble to get access. I can just barely see it using a mirror and flashlight from inside the cupboard the rod extends down through. Hoping someone has some experience with that they would care to share.
Thanks,
Dave
s/v Pacifico
One of the things I'm concerned about is getting access to the "tie rod nut" assembly at the base of the tie rod to be able to put liquid wrench or similar on it and heat or tap to get the tie rod to break free without galling. That connection is hidden behind the back board of my settee and I'll have to cut or disassemble to get access. I can just barely see it using a mirror and flashlight from inside the cupboard the rod extends down through. Hoping someone has some experience with that they would care to share.
Thanks,
Dave
s/v Pacifico
Charlie B.
Member II
Access to the tie rod nut
Greetings Pacifico!
In order to turn the tie rod, I dripped some penetrating oil on the rod just above the nut and let it soak in. There are two flats machined into the middle of the rod that will accept a large wrench. I used a 14" Crescent wrench to turn it. There was not a way to applyheat to the nut, but a little banging and cursing finally persuaded it!
In my setup, the rod enters just behind the settee through a shelf. I enlarged the slot that the rod goes through in order to give me room to angle the rod downward for removal. I inspected the rod and found it in good shape. When I reassembled it, I used Tuffgel on all the threaded connections. This stuff came highly recommended from a rigger friend.
Everyone's situation is a little different. In mine, there was significant oxidation in the aluminum, and some moisture in the core adjacent to the bolts. It seemed prudent to me to make the upgrades in materials s/s vs aluminum and to stop the leaks. Another thing to note, removing the bolts going through deck and the aluminum was far more difficult than turning the rod.
Charlie
Olson 34
Greetings Pacifico!
In order to turn the tie rod, I dripped some penetrating oil on the rod just above the nut and let it soak in. There are two flats machined into the middle of the rod that will accept a large wrench. I used a 14" Crescent wrench to turn it. There was not a way to applyheat to the nut, but a little banging and cursing finally persuaded it!
In my setup, the rod enters just behind the settee through a shelf. I enlarged the slot that the rod goes through in order to give me room to angle the rod downward for removal. I inspected the rod and found it in good shape. When I reassembled it, I used Tuffgel on all the threaded connections. This stuff came highly recommended from a rigger friend.
Everyone's situation is a little different. In mine, there was significant oxidation in the aluminum, and some moisture in the core adjacent to the bolts. It seemed prudent to me to make the upgrades in materials s/s vs aluminum and to stop the leaks. Another thing to note, removing the bolts going through deck and the aluminum was far more difficult than turning the rod.
Charlie
Olson 34