More 38-200 installation pics (storm sails, solar/wind, radar, monitor self steering)

[Ryan L]

Solar/wind is by Solar Stik

Sails are by North Sails

Radar and MFD are by B&G

Sat phone antenna is by PDQ

Radar tower by Garhauer

Self steer windvane by Monitor

We sail tested today and found the solent stay / working jib and storm jib systems work amazingly well! Pacific Offshore Rigging designed an ingenious system for the solent stay that enables us to easily rig it and then tension it from the cockpit with almost no metal parts. The North Sails are incredibly well built and I was surprised at the improvement in performance.

As always if anyone is thinking about going down these roads I'm happy to answer any questions or share info. I'll try to post more pics soon, these are just a few quick ones out of dozens that were taken.

Six weeks and counting...

 

[MMLOGAN]

Well done

Ryan,

You and your boat appeared to be squared away. True inspiration! Great job!

 

[Joliba]

Ryan and Nicole,
Perfect! It appears that all is finally coming together as you envisioned. Looking forward to seeing Naoma myself.
Mike

 

[tcooper]

Ryan, what supports the radar tower, can't tell from photos is your railing supporting or did you add some additional support? I have similar setup but my railing isn't going to support it well enough in heavy weather. Just looking for ideas.. Thanks


Tom RH36

 

[Ryan L]

Ryan, what supports the radar tower, can't tell from photos is your railing supporting or did you add some additional support? I have similar setup but my railing isn't going to support it well enough in heavy weather. Just looking for ideas.. Thanks


Tom RH36

Hi Tom - A LOT has changed since those pics... The tower is now supported by two 1" stainless steel poles (Garhauer) and is rock solid. The supports attach to the pole a little over 1/2 way up and just below the lifting davit. One runs forward and other runs athwartships where it is mounted onto the sloped part of the stern. Garhauer makes an excellent mount that is not listed on the website. Just call and ask for Mark. They can also custom make their support braces to fit any diameter pole. I'll try to post a pic soon of the completed installation. We're in sea trials now and have limited internet access. Before we put the support braces on the pole was way too wobbly. Actually, the pole itself was strong, the pushpit was too wobbly when trying to support the force of the pole.
R

 

[tcooper]

Ryan, if I go forward with my 1" support bar it takes a good sitting spot and makes it smaller. I have it all measured, just haven't made it up yet. I think you went a little higher, I didn't think of that. It might help get it out of the way. Thanks

Send picture if you get a chance, no hurry it's snowing here!




Tom RH36

 

[gadangit]

Hi Ryan-
I would love to see more pics of the Solent stay and your storm sail set up. I just recently added structure under our deck for a inner forestay attachment point. I plan on rigging up something for a storm sail as well.

Chris

 

[EGregerson]

Main sail

This is an older thread but I think still viable so I'll pop my question. Do my eyes tell me that you have a small main ('storm' main ? ) hoisted over the 'stock' main (flaked on the boom)? What advantages does this provide over 'normal' reefing? Looks like; drop main into lazy jacks, attach halyard to storm main, insert 8 or so slides, run up sail, sheet it in. And voila? (obviously I have never seen this type of set up).

 

[u079721]

This is an older thread but I think still viable so I'll pop my question. Do my eyes tell me that you have a small main ('storm' main ? ) hoisted over the 'stock' main (flaked on the boom)? What advantages does this provide over 'normal' reefing? Looks like; drop main into lazy jacks, attach halyard to storm main, insert 8 or so slides, run up sail, sheet it in. And voila? (obviously I have never seen this type of set up).

That's a storm trysail, the mailsail equivalent of a storm jib. And it is considered best practice to have a dedicated mast track just for the trysail. As for the advantage, for one thing it is built absolutely bullet proof. But also it keeps you from damaging the main in a storm. It's also probably smaller in size than a triple reefed main.

 

[Rocinante33]

That's a storm trysail, the mailsail equivalent of a storm jib. And it is considered best practice to have a dedicated mast track just for the trysail. As for the advantage, for one thing it is built absolutely bullet proof. But also it keeps you from damaging the main in a storm. It's also probably smaller in size than a triple reefed main.

Ryan (last known position South Pacific) has his storm trysail sheet led to the rail in that picture. I imagine he would tell us that picture was just a test of the hoist of the sail. But how should the sail be sheeted? Is there a small track on the boom to provide an attachment for an "outhaul?" A simple loop around the boom could secure it vertically, but to tension the foot one would need to pull it aft. Or is there some othe way to properly secure the clew for close haul sailing? One would need that desperately if one had to claw off of a lee shore in a storm.

BTW, to secure the clew to the boom, I can see that the flaked mainsail would likely be in the way.

 

[Joliba]

Occasionally storm trysails are sheeted to the end of the main boom. However, more typically they are cut to be sheeted to both the port and starboard rails. If there is no obstruction such as a high boom or a dodger, both sheets may be trimmed simultaneously to keep the sail more inboard. In practice, though, I doubt that this is done, as pointing that high in a storm is likely not possible even if clawing off of a lee shore.
Although not authoritative, I found this discussion of trysails interesting. http://www.oceannavigator.com/January-February-2003/Storm-sails/

Mike Jacker

 

[Ryan L]

We're currently at anchor in Tahiti with limited internet access and I happened to see your post. Mike (Joliba) is correct as usual, trysails nearly always sheet to the rails. You generally want to position the blocks so the line leading from the block to the clew "points" to a spot midway down the luff. We use the same blocks we use for our spinnaker sheets. The blocks are "permanently" attached to strong d-rings installed as far aft and outboard as possible and provide a fair lead forward to the main cockpit winches.

Sheeting to the boom is not really feasible as in a storm situation the boom and mainsail are lashed securely in place or in rare cases removed completely. Before hoisting the trysail we run spectra "preventers" to stay the boom and lash the sail with a spare line. Plus trust me, you won't want to be trying to rig stuff to the end of the boom in rough conditions, it's hard enough just to lash the main!

Mike is also correct that in conditions where you need a trysail you do not need to worry about sheeting in any closer than the above description allows. Even when sheeted to the quarters the trysail (at least ours) allows you to head upwind better than you might imagine.

All our sails (including our storm sails) are made by North. Our storm sails are from North Direct (their website) and are impressively well built.

By the way, I had a chance to sail with Mike a few times out here. He knows his stuff and has an impressive resume of blue water sailing experience.

If you're interested in following along our blog is published on the North Sails website at http://www.northsails.com/us/news-and-events/news/two-afloat-cruising-adventure-log

Happy to answer any other questions (when I'm able to get online...)

 

[Rocinante33]

Mike & Ryan,

Thanks for clarifying and thanks much for the tutorial on the storm trysail. Very informative!

Keep on keeping on out there & thanks for checking in! I will check out your blog.

 

[Jason G]

I am very interested in the solent stay / working jib and storm jib systems you came up with. Can you elaborate on those? I have a 1987 E34-2 which is similar to your boat.

-Jason

 

[Joliba]

Currently, Ryan is on a passage between Fakarava and Hiva Oa, in order to remain well clear of potential tropical cyclones in French Polynesia during this El Niño year storm season. I have seen and deployed Naoma's Solent stay while aboard with Ryan and Nicole. You will need to wait to get Ryan's take on the actual practicality of this set up while cruising. He may also share pictures of the clever yet simple rigging and stowing of this removable stay. My impression is that sailing can be accomplished on the 38-200 in most conditions very well using a jib on the forestay without having to hank on, hoist, drop, fold, and stow a staysail (Solent jib.) The staysail might add some efficiency in very specific conditions. However, this inner stay could be quite useful for flying the storm jib or as an emergency backup to the forestay.
Your boat is very similar, though the mast section is slightly smaller than in the 38. You could rig something similar to Ryan's, but I would wait to benefit from his experience before considering it.
Mike Jacker

 

[Christian Williams]

There is an argument against storm jibs, storm trysails, short stays and all of it, which I think always ought to be part of the conversation.

In my (limited) experience, shorthanded crews will have trouble rigging any of it.

If you can sail, reefed sails work well. In a real storm, sailing stops and survival commences--probably running off dead downwind with a series drogue.

It is exceptionally hard to rig and control any sails in a gale. A passing front may appear with 40 knots and little notice, and digging out a storm trysail will be problematic.

In Force 10 with big seas and a crew of nine on deck, we had a difficult time rigging a storm trysail. It took hours, at night. And the guys were supermen.

It can be argued that a cruising boat should stick with easy rig. Sails will likely be furled in survival conditions, or a scrap of jib or very deep mainsail reef.

Skip Novak is persuasive on the topic, at least to me:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=P66FPQhRwy8

 

[Jason G]

There is no denying skips experience and knowledge. I will be ordering a new mainsail soon and will talk with the loft about adding a third reef to it. I already have a 90 high cut yankee which I'd like to add a foam luff to and some reinforcements added for furling. What is the consensus on the later 32,34,35,& 38 hulls ability to effectively heave to or hove to in big seas or a string wind?

I have not been out in anything above 25kts yet and with the tired bagged out main on its second reef and the 120 slightly reefed up front it was hours of fun zipping around the puget sound. I didn't even consider practicing any storm techniques at the time. The boat was nice and light on the helm and only briefly pushed to 30deg heel in puffs to see what it was like.


Jason

 

[Christian Williams]

There are so many factors--wind, sea, cross seas, water depth, and so on--that I think every tactic has its place, and we may have to try them all to fit our boat to the precise situation.

I recently bought HANDLING STORMS AT SEA: The 5 Secrets of Heavy Weather Sailing by Hal Roth Hardcover $22.19 which I found to be a really good summation of techniques.

And in looking up the title I typed my own name, and instantly was delivered this story of Roth visiting in Annapolis, written by me in 1979. Ain't the new Internet grand....

https://www.washingtonpost.com/arch...he-mast/3731b904-6e90-49fc-a4a8-fdcc7ce4e2e7/

 

[Jeff Asbury]

In Force 10 with big seas and a crew of nine on deck, we had a difficult time rigging a storm trysail. It tooks hours, at night. And the guys were supermen.

I remember reading some where that trying to rig a storm trysail in as gale is a lot like trying to change a tire on a big rig truck going down the freeway at 60 miles an hour.

 

[Joliba]

storm sailing thoughts

I have never sailed in "survival" conditions. It would be unusual these days, with all of the weather forecasting tools, as well as old fashioned watch keeping, to be hit suddenly, without warning, by huge seas and storm winds. Of course, no one can rig a trysail (or probably even reef) short handed in the thick of those conditions. A cruising boat properly rigged with a trysail keeps it stowed in a cover at the mast base on its dedicated track with a dedicated halyard standing-by. Just as with reefing during short handed sailing, the trysail needs to be deployed early, BEFORE the worst conditions.
Many great books by very experienced sailors are available and should be required reading for anyone headed where heavy weather is possible. K. Adlard Cole's classic, Heavy Weather Sailing, was one of the first to compile storm experiences and recommendations. Many subsequent volumes including Hal Roth's discuss this topic sensibly. I recently have changed my thinking after reading Larry and Lin Pardey's book, Storm Tactics. They make a very cogent argument for heaving to, with a proper drogue on a bridle in any gale. They speak against running off with drogues. All of these books also discuss the other preparations for heavy weather including food, clothing, communication, stowage, etc.
What is clear, as Christian noted, is that the best tactic is dependent upon the boat, the crew, and all of the factors unique to each situation. I think it is incumbent upon someone heading offshore to have options in their armamentarium, and to have practiced their "Plan A" in at least moderately heavy conditions, to be fully prepared to execute the plan in a real gale.
For my own sailing on Lake Michigan, I use a triple reefed main and a storm jib. Occasionally, I have been out in 35+ knot sustained winds, and a few times in gustier thunderstorm squall lines. But when a true gale blows on the lake, there is almost always adequate warning to remain in port or get to a safe harbor. So, I have no need to prepare for extended survival conditions here. Racers here tend to get into more trouble than cruisers because they push harder and sometimes remain out when it is no longer prudent. I've spent many years racing and know the temptations. There are many days that I could not sail comfortably, even while daysailing, without my 3rd reef.
Mike Jacker