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28+ engine replacement

Dave G.

1984 E30+ Ludington, MI
Greg that is interesting for sure. That does not work with your system ? I would guess the motor becomes a generator and the prop(s) become the hydro power. I wonder how that process effects boat speed while under sail ? There would have to be some load/resistance involved to generate sufficient power to charge the batteries no ?
 

grmiller

Junior Member
Greg that is interesting for sure. That does not work with your system ? I would guess the motor becomes a generator and the prop(s) become the hydro power. I wonder how that process effects boat speed while under sail ? There would have to be some load/resistance involved to generate sufficient power to charge the batteries no ?
We do have regeneration, but with two props and motors and. 47-ft boat’s hull speed, you can do some serious regeneration (like a wind turbine the power available goes like the cube of the velocity). At the same time, the percentage of power harvested for regeneration relative to that used by the sails to drive the boat is really small, so from what I’ve read the effect is negligible. On our boat we don’t see any change in SOG when we toggle the regeneration off and on.

By the way, the other thing about electric power is it can be generated all kinds of ways. If you run out of fossil fuel, you’re out, but solar, regeneration, separate wind power can all be used to generate electricity to keep you going. In fact, there is another electric sailboat in the area that left in a diesel generator, and so they have yet another Plan B as needed

Greg
 

grmiller

Junior Member
A diesel shouldn't smell, gentleman. Exhaust when the wind blows it into the cockpit, OK. Otherwise, something is wrong, no?

On neither of my boats would you know there was a diesel by nose evidence. What am I missing?
I can’t help but believe you must be right, and you all have much more experience than I. However, boats also shouldn’t leak, but they do, and if you google ”boat diesel smell” (which of course I did early on), it’s clearly not an uncommon phenomenon. I think the pernicious issue is that once the smell gets settled in your cabin, it is really hard to eradicate and some people are really sensitive to it. It’s admittedly a brute force solution to get all the diesel off the boat, but it’s pretty bulletproof. I wish there was a similar way I could guarantee I’d never have another rain leak (without moving away from Seattle)...

Again, this is only one of the factors we took into account, and as noted earlier, our accounting is idiosyncratic to us. Just sharing our experience to date.
Greg
 

Dave G.

1984 E30+ Ludington, MI
So sounds like you need to get a bigger boat ! :) I'm guessing there is a lot of upside to your conversion and obviously a lot I don't know. If you are happy with it cost and all that's what matters. Be interesting to see how it all works in the real world after a year or so. Please keep us updated periodically on how it's working out.
 

SusanSMiller

Junior Member
Susan here. Greg's wife. I am so much happier without the very loud noise, vibrating seat, the overheating alarm from the Volvo going off or it just not starting, the smell (I can smell a diesel a slip away), the smell, the smell, the smell that permeates everything on the boat. I might be high maintenance with my nose, but am so happy with the changes made on Aditi. (Did you know soaking a cushion in diluted listerine in a backyard kiddy pool gets rid fo the diesel odor?) I love docking smoothly and quietly, the great control. We went fishing for the first time, and it was so quiet, so pleasant. My work is very noisy, so my ears appreciate the quiet. I am thankful we (Greg) were able to make the changes. I am always game to go out on the boat. The new odor free head was the second problem for me and that is also solved. Fun seeing all this conversation.
Happy Sailing All!
Susan
and also driving the Leaf EV is a blast, hard to go slow in it.
 

Christian Williams

E381 - Los Angeles
Senior Moderator
Blogs Author
Congrats from an extended family of five Priuse hybrids, one a Prius Prime (Electric range 25 miles; my wife did not buy gas in the Year 2021).

For the record, the point about diesel smell is that it indicates either an ongoing or ancient fuel spill, or an exhaust leak, or an overheating engine. Smell is a warning that something is wrong and smell should not be ignored or tolerated.

Yeah, diesels are loud and they do vibrate, no doubt about it. Sound insulation and RPM selection helps.
 

Gaviate

Member III
Once again, I find visiting this site so rewarding and full of useful information. The only add that I have to this topic is that there will come a time when fuel is no longer for sale, or so prohibitively expensive, that we'll all wish we had made the same 'switch' to electric!
 

Kenneth K

1985 32-3, Puget Sound
Blogs Author
There is a big difference in what will be "someday," what we may see during our lifetimes, and what is now. A gallon of diesel fuel generates the equivalent of about 40.7 kW. That means I have about 900kW of energy stored in my boat at any time, at a cost of about $80, refillable in about 5 min.

Until batteries and electric engines can realistically compete with that, IC engines are a long, long way from the history museums.
 

1911tex

Sustaining Member
Greg a very well thought out, educated analysis and presentation! Proud of you. Thank you.

I too believe gas/diesel will be largely interim replaced (may take a decade or two) by electric and electric will be replaced by hydrogen (my favorite largely untapped power source that has a pure water by-product) and ultimately, long after I am history, atomic energy.

I have been studying the hydrogen Honda cars that have been on the roads in California for some time. I have been on their list for purchase for a few years now. I can see hydrogen trucks, busses as well as automotive in the near future nationwide. Wish a major would build several hydrogen stations in Texas like California. I'd be on it like a tick.

I have an '85 Ericson with a Universal M25, 5421 Kubota that is original to the boat. Runs like a champ. No odors, squeezes a gallon of diesel to an amazing degree, just a hum of below deck noise and for all practical purposes, vibration free...at least it is not overtly noticeable, and leaves no smoke or glaze on the water. I am very happy with it. However, if it should bite the dust under my tutorship, I honestly do not know what direction I would go. By the way, she (yes a she, the engine is beautiful in my eyes) starts without hearing the starter on a fraction of revolution. My experienced friends are always amazed.

That's my story.
 

gabriel

Live free or die hard
Brushless motors are superior to IC engines in pretty much every way. Their problem has always been (and still is) their darn “fuel tank” which is expensive, heavy and holds less energy for its weight. There are also real environmental and social issues related to the mining of materials, manufacture and disposal of lithium batteries (though I admit this is somewhat mitigated with your lithium iron batteries).
 

grmiller

Junior Member
There is a big difference in what will be "someday," what we may see during our lifetimes, and what is now. A gallon of diesel fuel generates the equivalent of about 40.7 kW. That means I have about 900kW of energy stored in my boat at any time, at a cost of about $80, refillable in about 5 min.

Until batteries and electric engines can realistically compete with that, IC engines are a long, long way from the history museums.
A Diesel engine is not as efficient at harvesting that energy as an electric motor is at getting useful energy out of a battery, especially if one is looking at a range of operating conditions (e.g., slowing down in an ICE boat is not as useful in extending range because you move out of the sweet spot of the power efficiency curve—even idling you are burning fuel). Diesel engines tend to have an efficiency of about 35% when running well, electric motors more like 85-90%, so not all stored KW-hrs are equally available at the shaft. Liquid fuels do store tremendous amounts of energy, though—there’s no doubt about that.

I think the interesting thing from an engineering point of view is the special set of challenges and opportunities there are in the specific context of sailboats: things like auxiliary versus primary (wind) power, marine versus land-based optimization (inertia, drag, duty cycles, etc.), in-field energy generation, relative cost of propulsion system to overall system cost, and so on. Lots of room for innovation, so it will be interesting to see what the future brings.

Greg
 

G Kiba

Sustaining Member
I think many of you forgot that these are sailboats. If you sail more, you will use the engine less -regardless of type. As for diesel vs. electric. My viewpoint, FWIW, replacing something that still works for something new just adds to the amount of stuff we put into the natural world. Not that I am super green, but it has been shown that banning single-use plastic bags has resulted in increased sales of new plastic bags to line waste containers that previously lined with single-use bags. I think the idea of re-purposing and/or repairing are valid conservation measures.
 

K2MSmith

Sustaining Member
Interesting discussion..(as mentioned I am also an x-leaf owner. I will definitely be getting another e-car when I am due).

The PO of my boat (SF bay area) told me that he filled the diesel tank every year. I filled it a few months ago and the fuel gauge still shows full :) (I should actually check the tank level :)

I think early adoption electric sailing really depends on your "mission". I think for us, it would be ideal because I have not "yet" required that much range - we just use the diesel to get us out of the marina, to troll while putting up the mainsail etc. - , but for others that depend on range for long-distance cruising and crossing oceans, I think having a hybrid system with some sort of backup generator is the way to go.

There is the cost-benefit analysis. Does it make sense to put a 30-40K electric power system in a 28K boat ? I think that will depend on your purpose and the personal value you will get from it. . Certainly, you can 't buy a new 33' boat with electric power for 60-70K - that's for sure, but you may not be able to sell if for that much either.
 

K2MSmith

Sustaining Member
and also driving the Leaf EV is a blast, hard to go slow in it.
I loved my leaf. I had a 1st generation. I elected not to renew my lease on a 2nd generation because it did not have a significant range improvement but the current models have gotten much better.
 

Mark F

Contributing Partner
Blogs Author
The comments on EP auxilary sailboat resale are interesting. The only experience I have had with that is selling my 1968 E23 (Coaster) with EP for $2500 more than I bought it for in 2006. Just sayin. (edit) The buyer said the reason she wanted to see the boat was because it had EP.
 
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K2MSmith

Sustaining Member
The comments on EP auxilary sailboat resale are interesting. The only experience I have had with that is selling my 1968 E23 (Coaster) with EP for $2500 more than I bought it for in 2006. Just sayin.
My resale comment pertained to the resale value vs total cost of investment including the boat plus the cost to convert. If you bought a boat with EP power already , I would imagine you could sell it for close or even more than you paid . The owner who took the loss wasn’t you , it was the previous owner that did the conversion.
 
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