32-3 Dorade Leak

[Kenneth K]

Anyone out there had a leaky dorade hose on an E32-3 or similar configuration?

I pulled the old, unused cabin heater exhaust stack off the stbd deck a few weeks ago in hopes of resealing the 3" hole it left. There was a little bit of wood core damage inside, but only about an inch +/- in any direction. I sealed the deck thoroughly from above with tape and let it sit for a few weeks until I had time to work on it further.



When I went back to look at it again, I found that the water is coming in from a source above the exhaust stack hole and the only other thing up there that could be causing it seems to be the dorade hose that leads to the clam shell vent on the side-sloped wall of the deck.

It's a bit of a mess from underneath--the hose/vent connection is covered in a blob of epoxy/fiberglass that's going to require some serious excavation.



Anyone tackle this job or have tool recommendations for exposing the hose without causing undue damage to the deck?

 

[Martin King]

Before you go tearing into that blob of glass, are you absolutey sure it's not just a bedding issue? I would rebed that exhaust stack, or whatever you are putting back on the deck to cover that hole first, after you fix the damaged core. Then put some water in the dorade and see if it's getting out of the hose somehow. Otherwise you are talking cut off wheels, grinders, and a respirator to clear a path. My skin is itching just thinking about it.

Martin

 

[windblown]

We’re having Intermittent water incursion and suspect the dorade/hose might be the source. The moisture shows up at the base of the bulkhead between the port settee in the salon and the head. We noticed it first as some white mildew (or frost) on the teak around the bolts when the boat was on the hard. We’ve ruled out Rain/snow water coming down the mast, but we haven’t been able to trace a source. It dries out and seems to resolve for weeks or months, and then comes back.

 

[GrandpaSteve]

I suspect my dorade hose is leaking on the port side into the headliner in the head. Overtime has caused a 2" portion of the teak veneer under the opening port in the head to turn black and rot. I thought it was the port leaking and attacked that but later traced the leak to the wet dorade hose. It looks impossible to remove/replace. I am thinking of replacing the dorade scoop with some kind of passive vent.

 

[Kenneth K]

Interesting that other 32-3 owners are finding the same problem. This isn't one I've read about before.

I did a little more digging into my leak. The "blob" surrounding the dorade hose turned out to be all thickened epoxy (and no glass), so it chipped away easily with a hammer and chisel.

Here's what I found:

The brass tube is what exits the decking (I have already removed it and patched the hole in this photo). The poly tubing (where I now added the splice and longer hose) is fastened to the brass with the hose clamp (see original post).

My first guess is that the hose clamp just gets loose after 30 years and allows a leak where the poly and brass meet. Due to the sloped angle of the deck the "low point" of the brass tube is not where it exits the boat, but in the bend in the brass tube--close to the (loose?) hose clamp.

I damaged the brass tube with my chisel, so I'm going to replace it. I also might drill a lower exit hole in the deck so the exit point is lower than the bend/hose clamp.

Anyone else doing this might just try chiseling away enough epoxy to get access to just tighten the hose clamp.

I didn't know my port side was leaking as well, until I left the headliner zipper open during a few rainy days. The head floor collected quite a bit of water that had likely been previously leaking down the sidewall.


The red-pen lines show the trail of water from the hose, through the epoxy blob, to where it drips from the ceiling to the headliner.

I'm going to try just chiseling enough epoxy away to try to tighten the hose clamp here and see if that solves it.

My current method of catching the port-side leak:



Damn leaks.....

 

[Loren Beach]

An owner of an E-38-200, here, sealed up both of those molded in raised parts (vents) on either side of the front of the mast.
Leaks and a threat to the coring.

One of those ideas that is perfect in the design stage, but required more careful execution in the construction phase than they could budget time for. (IMHO)
If you access, completely, the inside part - beneath - and can reach into the hole on top to re-epoxy the wood, and do some subtle re-routing of the drain, you could probably make it useable and water proof again.
The forward part of any housetop is a good place for a vent, as long as spray and rain can be kept out, like the original "Dorade" vent idea, but trying to integrate this into a once piece deck mold is tricky.

Dorade box - Wikipedia

en.wikipedia.org

Idea is to bring in air and exclude water.
The Nicro vent and the Beckson Vent-O-Mate (model C-6SS) both perform a similar function. We have used the Beckson product on two of our boats, spanning almost four decades, with total success. Note also that the streamlined low vent shapes do *not* need an SS tubing guard to shed lines.

While I love the "engineering coolness" of the EY concept, my personal opinion is that Bruce King was asking more from the production folks than was really possible on a given budget. (IMHO, and YMMV, as we say on the 'net)

 

[windblown]

An owner of an E-38-200, here, sealed up both of those molded in raised parts (vents) on either side of the front of the mast.
Leaks and a threat to the coring.

One of those ideas that is perfect in the design stage, but required more careful execution in the construction phase than they could budget time for. (IMHO)
If you access, completely, the inside part - beneath - and can reach into the hole on top to re-epoxy the wood, and do some subtle re-routing of the drain, you could probably make it useable and water proof again.
The forward part of any housetop is a good place for a vent, as long as spray and rain can be kept out, like the original "Dorade" vent idea, but trying to integrate this into a once piece deck mold is tricky.

Dorade box - Wikipedia

en.wikipedia.org

Idea is to bring in air and exclude water.
The Nicro vent and the Beckson Vent-O-Mate both perform a similar function. We have used the Beckson product on two of our boats, spanning almost four decades, with total success. Note also that the streamlined low vent shapes do *not* need an SS tubing guard to shed lines.

While I love the "engineering coolness" of the EY concept, my personal opinion is that Bruce King was asking more from the production folks than was really possible on a given budget. (IMHO, and YMMV, as we say on the 'net)

Loren,
Thank you so much for all your insight and wisdom which many of us devour for hours, but may not acknowledge regularly enough. You and the other Moderators of this forum, along with the community that gathers here, transform the sometimes overwhelming challenge of owning and maintaining an aging sailboat into a delightful adventure as we learn and discover how to care for and enjoy our beautiful and classic Ericsons.
I don’t understand this sentence above, “Note also that the streamlined low vent shapes do *not* need an SS tubing guard to shed lines.“ Could you clarify for me what shed lines are? Is that the tubing that vents to the SS clamshell on deck?
When you say you sealed up “both of those raised in parts on the deco”, can I assume there is a thread about that here somewhere?

 

[windblown]

Interesting that other 32-3 owners are finding the same problem. This isn't one I've read about before.

I did a little more digging into my leak. The "blob" surrounding the dorade hose turned out to be all thickened epoxy (and no glass), so it chipped away easily with a hammer and chisel.

Here's what I found:View attachment 35795

The brass tube is what exits the decking (I have already removed it and patched the hole in this photo). The poly tubing (where I now added the splice and longer hose) is fastened to the brass with the hose clamp (see original post).

My first guess is that the hose clamp just gets loose after 30 years and allows a leak where the poly and brass meet. Due to the sloped angle of the deck the "low point" of the brass tube is not where it exits the boat, but in the bend in the brass tube--close to the (loose?) hose clamp.

I damaged the brass tube with my chisel, so I'm going to replace it. I also might drill a lower exit hole in the deck so the exit point is lower than the bend/hose clamp.

Anyone else doing this might just try chiseling away enough epoxy to get access to just tighten the hose clamp.

I didn't know my port side was leaking as well, until I left the headliner zipper open during a few rainy days. The head floor collected quite a bit of water that had likely been previously leaking down the sidewall.

View attachment 35796
The red-pen lines show the trail of water from the hose, through the epoxy blob, to where it drips from the ceiling to the headliner.

I'm going to try just chiseling enough epoxy away to try to tighten the hose clamp here and see if that solves it.

My current method of catching the port-side leak:

View attachment 35799View attachment 35800

Damn leaks.....

Kenneth K:
Thank you for daring to break through the epoxy on our behalf. I believe you’ve found the source of an E 32-3 leak that will become more and more common as these boats head toward their 40th birthdays. If this proves to be the source of the water at the base of my bulkhead, your post may save Tradewinds from significant rot and damage! Thank you.

 

[Loren Beach]

I don’t understand this sentence above, “Note also that the streamlined low vent shapes do *not* need an SS tubing guard to shed lines.“ Could you clarify for me what shed lines are? Is that the tubing that vents to the SS clamshell on deck?
When you say you sealed up “both of those raised in parts on the deco”, can I assume there is a thread about that here somewhere?

I was referring to the shape of the "aeolian" or "platter" vents. They evolved to easily shed lines like sheets that whip over them.
A conventional Dorade vent or any vent that uses metal or vinyl on top can have that top part ripped off by a flailing sheet.
I am not sure about your question about "deco". And the reference to sealing up the openings, was to a friend's Ericson, and he put a solid polished SS plate over each one on his 38.
"Shedding" lines refers to having the line be able to pass over the vent device without catching on it.

(As for wisdom -- HA! .... I did not follow my inclination, at the time, to buy Apple for $13. a share back in the 90's. Big Sigh.)

 

[windblown]

I was referring to the shape of the "aeolian" or "platter" vents. They evolved to easily shed lines like sheets that whip over them.
A conventional Dorade vent or any vent that uses metal or vinyl on top can have that top part ripped off by a flailing sheet.
I am not sure about your question about "deco". And the reference to sealing up the openings, was to a friend's Ericson, and he put a solid polished SS plate over each one on his 38.
"Shedding" lines refers to having the line be able to pass over the vent device without catching on it.

(As for wisdom -- HA! .... I did not follow my inclination, at the time, to buy Apple for $13. a share back in the 90's. Big Sigh.)

Aha! You were referring to that whole stainless steel structure over the Dorade box that sheds the sheets and lines. Of course! I thought that structure was such a convenient place to secure unused halyards, and a handy step-ladder for shorter sailors to use when covering the mainsail. . . Now I understand it’s intended purpose! Thank you. My typo: “deco” was supposed to have been “deck.”

 

[Kenneth K]

If this proves to be the source of the water at the base of my bulkhead......

I found some early evidence of staining & water damage on the v-berth side of the stbd bulkhead that I would not have noticed if I hadn't found this leak first.



On the port side, I think the water must have been draining along the sidewall. It makes me wonder if what often appears to be leaky portlights is sometimes water leaking from above and then simply running along and underneath the portlight frames.

 

[Loren Beach]

If the "upstream" cabin geography puts you near the mast penetration, have a good long look at the underside on a rainy day.
unzip and pull back the headliner adjacent, and some staples may have to be extracted. Shine a strong light on the underside.

Most of us focus, rightly much of the time, on leaks down the spar, i.e. rain getting thru, under the outer collar cover.

Actually the sealant can fail where the large SS plate that surrounds the mast penetration is thru-bolted with about 5 or 6 1/4-20 bolts per side. We found some leakage there, and I know of a sistership where they had to replace the original plywood with G10 and thickened epoxy.
Since our plywood was solid, albeit discolored, I over-drilled all holes and filled them with thickened epoxy, and re-drilled all.

Since our spar is presently off, instead of just raising up the large SS piece, I was able to move it over to a work table and buff it to a shine. (!)
This will not make the boat go any faster, but it will look cool.... a little bit of bling for our Ericson/Olson !

 

[Kenneth K]

If the "upstream" cabin geography puts you near the mast penetration, have a good long look at the underside on a rainy day.
unzip and pull back the headliner adjacent, and some staples may have to be extracted.

This is my first foray into removing headliner/staples. Something no one wants to do, but it's the only way to gain access to some of these areas.

The next problem will be putting it back together. Like having an easily removable cabin sole, a removable headliner would be a great help. And, I just can't see putting all those staples back in. I'm wondering if the headliner fabric could be stretched over a flexible sheeting material (plywood? starboard?) that could be velcro-ed or snapped back into place.

 

[Kenneth K]

This will not make the boat go any faster, but it will look cool....

But it WILL make the boat FEEL faster, which is almost as good

 

[Loren Beach]

Removing staples. Much trial and error. Some methods work better. Opinions vary.

After several hundred of them, over the years, I am using a very small screw driver with a sharpened blade. These staples were air-driven and are about 3/8" deep or a tad more. Original wire may break due to decades of slow corrosion. Idea is to get the center to lift enough to get a point under it and rock it out. Best is to get a sharp and well-fitted plier to grip it and pull. You often have to deal with one side breaking -- either get that remaining wire out with pliers, or tap it down flush with 1/4" end punch. Idea is not to leave any "skin rippers" behind you to later discover and then wonder when you last tetanus shot was....

 

[Loren Beach]

But it WILL make the boat FEEL faster, which is almost as good

You got that right! It's kinda like the *speed* feeling of sitting down on the low side going to weather at 7 kts. Similar to the rush of driving a TR-3, with your elbow a couple feet off the road, blurring past you, below that low-cut door!
(I do miss my old TR-3a, but only for the days when it actually ran. As clapped out as it truly was, it was still a thrill to drive for a poor student!)


Back in Ye Olden Days, when poor students would try to fix their old cars, I bought a little curved 'hook' tool, and with occasional sharpening of the tip, has helped for removing the various staples that EY drove. I found a picture on the web.

 

[Kenneth K]

Loren, not so much with my old Chevy Nova, but a high school friend had an old Datsun 240Z. I swear that the rusted exhaust pipes, rattling floorboards, and perpetual smell of gasoline added 20 mph to our perceived speed no matter how fast we were going.

 

[Geoff W.]

Thanks for leading the charge on this one, Kenneth. If it's happening to you I'm sure it's happening to me, or is about to happen to me. Lemme know how it is getting the headliner on... I know I need to go through and rebed my stanchions (more for mental health than any actual leak observed) but the headliner job is scary to me.

What's next on 32-3 maintenance roulette for the team here? I just accidentally broke the fiberglass recycling/trash bin free of its mounts while shoving some cans into it. Could be a fun community project.

 

[vanilladuck]

I took my headliner down in the salon getting ready to fair/paint the deck head. More here if you like seeing gross projects which are going to take too long:

Fairing, sanding, and painting the deckhead

A brief pause while you retrieve your jaw from the floor or keyboard... In the midst of a major refit of running gear, I started removing the headliner on Rumour. Abhorred by a million and one rusted staples, a series of complex folds, and a lot of mold, I started thinking there's gotta be a...

ericsonyachts.org

Looking forward from the salon, I discovered some issues with the drain hose for Rumour's dorade box. I haven't removed the headliner in the v-berth cabin yet, like @Kenneth K, but that's probably my next step. Upon barely touching the hose the corroded green pipe broke like a tortilla chip in a toddler's hand. <sigh>



I can see the edge of the glob of resin Kenneth described. I'm wondering... if I should chisel everything out and see if I can remove the remainder of the copper pipe. Then I could drill the hole to the outside deck and use 4200 or similar to bed a plastic nipple in place. Something to which a new hose can be clamped. Thoughts?

I'm definitely not going to be covering the hose or the drain exit with fairing compound. Instead I'll probably leave that space open and put up some Sunbrella fabric with snaps so this area can remain serviceable.

This thread and this discovery now explain why the veneer is so trashed on the forward two portlights in the v-berth and head. I'm betting water was just pouring into the headliner when attempting to run out of the dorade box.

 

[Kenneth K]

I'm wondering... if I should chisel everything out and see if I can remove the remainder of the copper pipe. Then I could drill the hole to the outside deck and use 4200 or similar to bed a plastic nipple in place. Something to which a new hose can be clamped. Thoughts?

I meant to do a post about how I finished up this project, but never got around to it.

As to you question about removing the copper pipe and replacing with a plastic nipple; I'd say that any "straight" fitting that goes through the sloped cabin sidewall will likely leave a droop in the bottom of the dorade drain. I was afraid such a droop would trap water and debris and have high potential for clogging. I think this is why Ericson used a curved copper pipe in this instance.

However, I think one problem with Ericson's installation was that the low end of the copper pipe (where it drains to the exterior) was still located too high, and, thus, probably still trapped water. You can see the 'low point' (inside the tube) in the photo below.

(original installation)

I think this is why I was getting leaks from the lower hose-clamps on the drain tube. And, of course, the epoxy blob that covered the hose clamps prevented me from tightening them.

Ultimately, I replaced both (port & stbd) copper tubes with new, curved copper tubes, but I drilled the exit hole in the cabin sidewall 1/2"-3/4" lower to minimize the "low point" in the drain tube. I just re-epoxied the copper tubes into place, but left easy access to the hose clamps

(blue = original location)

finished project.

The new drain tubes and the re-installation of the dorade guard bases and tubing went so well I had been patting myself on the back for a job well done. About two weeks later, I discovered additional leaks near the dorade drain that sent me back into my original state of frustration and boat-hate. I still haven't located the source of this new leak, but I am thinking it may be from water entering at the mast collar and running along the plywood cabin-top toward the dorade.

new leaks