38-200 aft keel bolt access

[EricHasAnEricson]

Hi all. I'm preparing to do some long term preventative maintenance on my new-to-me Ericson 38-200. I want to drop and re-bed the keel.

My '86 model has the diesel engine mounted below the galley sink, directly over the aft 3 keel bolts.

Any ideas how I might go about accessing them?

 

[peaman]

Are there any indications that there might be a problem with the keel, or is this major project just something you think is needed? Dropping the keel is not considered routine maintenance, absent concerning evidence of a problem.

 

[EricHasAnEricson]

There is a small crack at the front and back of the keel/stub joint, but nothing significant enough to warrant a panic. My reason for wanting to do this is:

• 38-200 models were known for having a poor bond between the stub and keel due to mold release wax not being adequately removed (or so I read).
• I want to keep this boat for the next 10+ years, so any preventative maintenance that will provide long-term benefits, I'd like to do now.

Based on this boat's history, I have good reason to believe that the keel bolts are in good shape. I want to re-bed the keel to ensure they stay that way.

 

[Loren Beach]

Re-bedding the keel is indeed a "long term" preventative maintenance project. We did this to our keel, not too long after buying the boat.
There are several informative threads here regarding this. Here is just one: https://ericsonyachts.org/ie/threads/keel-bolt-design-and-repair.3448/

Like most other maintenance, it amortizes out very well when you sail and enjoy the boat for a couple of decades.

 

[Christian Williams]

I would need evidence of a problem.

 

[Christian Williams]

Regarding the keel bolts under the engine, you might ask the -200 owners in this thread. You can send them a message by clicking their Username and Start Conversation.

 

[EricHasAnEricson]

Thanks Christian, I have continued poking around and feel I can sufficiently access the bolts without touching the engine, with the help of a universal joint. See image attached. The gap between the engine mounting plate and TAFG should be wide enough to slot a torque drive-shaft thing in at a slight angle.

I agree this would be over-the-top preventative maintenance item in most cases. But consider that my boat is already on the hard, I'm about to remove the mast anyways (replacing standing rigging). The only real additional cost here will be some added lift time to hoist the boat up off the keel. No doubt also some lost blood, sweat and tears as well.

 

[Christian Williams]

Do you have an estimate? Around here dropping a keel is expensive, with no DIY allowed.

 

[Dave G.]

The only real additional cost here will be some added lift time to hoist the boat up off the keel.

If the boat gods really really love you it may go that way. As Christian suggests you should get a full estimate as you'll need to support the keel(3 tons) and boat with them separated while you at least scrape and clean both surfaces before re-bedding the keel. Hoist time alone around me is about $300 an hour. If there are "0" complications it's still a lot of work and hoist time. And of course as with most projects, there's that can of worms thing......

 

[Christian Williams]

And if the yard doesn't like the look of the keel bolts, they may decline to put the keel back on without replacing them.

 

[Saverio]

Hi I have a 38 200 engine under the sink, for 4 years now. It costs a lot to dismantle, are you sure there are problems? 1 you have to dismast, 2 prepare a specific cradle with 2 tie rods attached to the boat, go to the ground with 2 concrete blocks otherwise it could fall, 3 dismantle the propeller shaft, lift the engine, 4 go under the boat with the forklift, remove the screws and the keel comes off. A good Marine Surveyor with x-ray equipment can give you peace of mind and certainty about your boat. Xavier

 

[EricHasAnEricson]

I understand the concern, and it's something I was looking into locally here as well. Trying to get a full assessment of the costs before I get started.

I'm in San Carlos, Mexico, and I'm allowed to do as much as I want by myself, which is pretty refreshing. I talked to the office staff and the local workyard folks, and things are looking promising:

• They pulled another boat's keel earlier this year, they built an entire keel-support cage for that job, and it's still here. I can use it, although the daily rental rate is still TBD. I'm estimating $30/day.
• Lift rate within the storage yard is about $45/hour.
• Dis-masting is about $130/hour.

If I use my own tools, and sweat my own sweat (it's hot here), then optimistically I'm looking at $260 for getting the mast off and back on. Then another $120 - $200 for getting the boat off and back onto the keel. If it works out to double these numbers, that's still a good deal. Once the keel and boat are separated, I can sit in stands while I grind, sand, and prep the mating surfaces. No additional costs there.

I plan to do a lot of prep work to make that optimistic estimate realistic, I don't want to have the boat in the hoist and then say "oh, I should probably grind down that keel-stub joint" while I'm paying hourly machinery costs.

I think some of the worst-case scenarios are in a way my best-case scenarios. If I pull the keel off and the bolts look terrible, then I'll be very glad I did it now. I'd rather not find out about these issues when I'm halfway to the Tuamotus.

The work yard is basically empty right now, this is low season here. Fortune appears to be on my side - so, fingers crossed, this project goes well. I will document everything to the best of my ability, for future owners considering the job.

 

[EricHasAnEricson]

Hi I have a 38 200 engine under the sink, for 4 years now. It costs a lot to dismantle, are you sure there are problems? 1 you have to dismast, 2 prepare a specific cradle with 2 tie rods attached to the boat, go to the ground with 2 concrete blocks otherwise it could fall, 3 dismantle the propeller shaft, lift the engine, 4 go under the boat with the forklift, remove the screws and the keel comes off. A good Marine Surveyor with x-ray equipment can give you peace of mind and certainty about your boat. Xavier

This is good info, I was looking at keel bolt access under my engine and that is the last big unanswered question - can I access them sufficiently enough to torque them to spec using a universal joint?

If I need to pull the engine out to do this job, then I'm far less motivated to do it. That job might need to wait for an eventual re-power job.

 

[Loren Beach]

FWIW the local yard that dropped our keel for a re-bed, had a welded steel cradle that they used for this purpose. They fine-tuned the fit with wood wedges. The boat was lifted straight up with the slings on the TraveLift. Mast and rig was not touched. Since our bolts were OK other than some surface rust, they could clean up the mating surfaces and put it back together in a couple days. (It's been a while, so it might have been more days, but it was not too long.)

 

[Reefpoints]

When I did this over the winter on my 35-3, I had the yard separate the keel on a Friday morning and they let the boat hang in the slings over the weekend with reattachment scheduled for Monday afternoon. This gave me plenty of time to inspect and prepare both surfaces, clean-out and degrease the bilge and bolt-holes, etc, without having to remove the mast, prop shaft, or rudder since the hull would safely be in the slings at all times.

I built the keel-stand the weekend before since this was the first time my yard would attempt to re-install a keel. It's important that both halves of the keel stand are attached to the same planks (see red outline in photo) so that the two halves can't push away from each other if the keel starts leaning.

 

[Christian Williams]

Nice job. What prompted the decision to drop the keel? And can you give a rough estimate of cost these days, and your choice of bond or sealant.

 

[Vtonian]

Mexico prices and permissions are a game changer and an opportunity most of us don't have.

That said, to R&R the keel is a big job at any price. If you're down that way, the price advantage may be available another time, and you'll have the opportunity to check its status with dives and haulouts for routine maintenance.

If you don't have reason to doubt the integrity of the bolts themselves, the bedding can give a little at the ends without issue. I've cleaned those cracks out on another boat, filled with 5200, retorqued the bolts and just kept an eye on them. You'll be diving on it regularly and hauling it occasionally, it won't be neglected.

Besides, cruising is boat repair in exotic places, don't deprive yourself of experiencing another exotic locale.

 

[Pete the Cat]

Do you have an estimate? Around here dropping a keel is expensive, with no DIY allowed.

I understand the concern, and it's something I was looking into locally here as well. Trying to get a full assessment of the costs before I get started.

I'm in San Carlos, Mexico, and I'm allowed to do as much as I want by myself, which is pretty refreshing. I talked to the office staff and the local workyard folks, and things are looking promising:

• They pulled another boat's keel earlier this year, they built an entire keel-support cage for that job, and it's still here. I can use it, although the daily rental rate is still TBD. I'm estimating $30/day.
• Lift rate within the storage yard is about $45/hour.
• Dis-masting is about $130/hour.

If I use my own tools, and sweat my own sweat (it's hot here), then optimistically I'm looking at $260 for getting the mast off and back on. Then another $120 - $200 for getting the boat off and back onto the keel. If it works out to double these numbers, that's still a good deal. Once the keel and boat are separated, I can sit in stands while I grind, sand, and prep the mating surfaces. No additional costs there.

I plan to do a lot of prep work to make that optimistic estimate realistic, I don't want to have the boat in the hoist and then say "oh, I should probably grind down that keel-stub joint" while I'm paying hourly machinery costs.

I think some of the worst-case scenarios are in a way my best-case scenarios. If I pull the keel off and the bolts look terrible, then I'll be very glad I did it now. I'd rather not find out about these issues when I'm halfway to the Tuamotus.

The work yard is basically empty right now, this is low season here. Fortune appears to be on my side - so, fingers crossed, this project goes well. I will document everything to the best of my ability, for future owners considering the job.

I realize costs are less in Mexico. But $45/hr for a Travel lift? I hit a rock with my Tartan at 7kts and the bill was $25K. More than half of that was the removal and reinstallation of the keel. All the keel bolts were accessible at a busy Maine yard. Keels do not generally just pop off--I have seen Sawsalls put in action to remove parts of them--the adhesives used are often destructive to the substrate when removed--not sure about how Ericson fastened them, but properly applied 5200 often takes laminates with them when separated--and you are then in for some time in the slings and hoping that the new laminate layers like each other as much as the old ones did. If you do run into a corroded keel bolt, are you aware of how complicated that replacement process can be--(hint: you do not just thread a new one)? In one case in the yard I worked in, this involved sawing a horizontal hole in a keel to bed the custom machined replacement J bolt (they are not "off the shelf items"--then the alignment was a challenge. There is an implicit presumption that the keel will be more reliable after being taken apart and put back together--I am not necessarily an adherent to that thought--even when I do the work. I just put in a new Oberdorfer pump that the factory forgot to put a bearing in (they admitted that they had had a few complaints about that) that promptly filled my bilge. The only rigging failure I ever had was in a recently replaced (almost new) lower shroud that someone at the rigging shop must have pressed incorrectly. After 50 years I am reluctant to take something apart that was meant to be permanently attached for any kind of "preventive" maintenance. Just an opinion based on my experience.

 

[EricHasAnEricson]

I realize costs are less in Mexico. But $45/hr for a Travel lift? I hit a rock with my Tartan at 7kts and the bill was $25K. More than half of that was the removal and reinstallation of the keel. All the keel bolts were accessible at a busy Maine yard. Keels do not generally just pop off--I have seen Sawsalls put in action to remove parts of them--the adhesives used are often destructive to the substrate when removed--not sure about how Ericson fastened them, but properly applied 5200 often takes laminates with them when separated--and you are then in for some time in the slings and hoping that the new laminate layers like each other as much as the old ones did. If you do run into a corroded keel bolt, are you aware of how complicated that replacement process can be--(hint: you do not just thread a new one)? In one case in the yard I worked in, this involved sawing a horizontal hole in a keel to bed the custom machined replacement J bolt (they are not "off the shelf items"--then the alignment was a challenge. There is an implicit presumption that the keel will be more reliable after being taken apart and put back together--I am not necessarily an adherent to that thought--even when I do the work. I just put in a new Oberdorfer pump that the factory forgot to put a bearing in (they admitted that they had had a few complaints about that) that promptly filled my bilge. The only rigging failure I ever had was in a recently replaced (almost new) lower shroud that someone at the rigging shop must have pressed incorrectly. After 50 years I am reluctant to take something apart that was meant to be permanently attached for any kind of "preventive" maintenance. Just an opinion based on my experience.

It's not a full-sized travel lift. They call it a "low boy" here, I don't know what that means, but it's what they use for moving the boats between dry storage and the work-yard area. I'll find out more soon.

From my research on this forum, it seems that my hull would be right around the time when Ericson was NOT properly bonding the keel and stub. There are quite a few members who reported having the keel pop off with little effort (once the keel bolts were loosened - not out sailing). Evidently the mold release wax was not properly cleaned off the hulls for some time.

I don't intend to go into this project without testing the waters first. My mast comes off on Monday - that will give me good access to the keel bolts/washers and I can inspect their condition better (is that rust or dirt?) Once I get my tools down here, I can grind away the antifouling and peeling bits of fiberglass that were epoxied over the front and back of the joint - another data point.

On my last boat (Pearson 10M) I found some bolts that had necked down to ~20% their original cross-sectional area while re-bedding stanchions. I had heard about crevice corrosion, but to find it hiding in plain sight like that was pretty sobering. I know I'm unlikely to lose a keel, but my intent here is to ensure those bolts will be well-preserved for the next decade or two.

And if that keel comes down and I find an ugly rusty bolt - all the better. I want to know about it. Not pulling the keel for fear of finding bad bolts feels to me like not going to the dentist because you might need a root canal. Let's get it over with!

 

[Loren Beach]

On my last boat (Pearson 10M) I found some bolts that had necked down to ~20% their original cross-sectional area while re-bedding stanchions. I had heard about crevice corrosion, but to find it hiding in plain sight like that was pretty sobering

Oh my. This is a not-pleasant trip down memory lane. Back when we were shopping hard for our next/big boat in early 1994, we spent a day looking over a brokered P-10M docked at Newport OR. Price was in line, but after spending some time inside and outside, we were not so sure about the "early IOR" hull design, and then we checked the stanchion bases and found that this was one of the Pearson's that had used a rubber gasket under each base rather than properly sealing the bolts. I still recall flexing s stanchion and having moisture bubble out around the deteriorated gasket. (!)
I was warned about this by a surveyor and could readily imagine what would happen to the coring all along the deck.
Overall, it was a decent design from a NA, and relatively well built, in general. But having to re-core the deck on a 20 year old boat was a deal killer.
Back... to your future/present... I hope that there is nothing but a little surface rust on those keel bolt threads. Which is all we found when we had that maintenance done.