A few questions about head cleaning/maintence....

[jacksonkev]

Spring is in the air and so is the smell coming from my head.

I never use the head. I bought the boat 3 years ago and have basically never opened the door to the head. The bucket takes the brunt of the abuse on the boat. But I think I'm going to "allow it" this year. I just can't stand adding another maintenance item to the list but I'm willing. I've got the "Head-Mate" that came with the boat in the 80's. Everything works ok but I'm going to preemptively replace the manual pump. I found a good deal online. Otherwise, I'd imagine the hoses are old and could use an upgrade but I'm not sure. And the overall surface of the head and bowl stink from sitting unattended.

Questions....

Assuming the head hasn't been used in years, and I'm willing to put on the rubber gloves and tackle it head on (pun intended) what's the best way to give it a full system minty fresh clean? There are a lot of products out there making a lot of bold claims but I want a tried and true system of cleaning and freshening the bowl, head, lines, holding tank, etc. I'd like to create a nice starting point so my sailing buddies to fowl it for the rest of the season.

Also, after it's clean and being used regularly, what's the best maintenance for the head and holding tank during the season? I hate the smell of the cheap blue crap you pour in there. In your experience, is there a best way to pump out, sanitize, add chemicals (or enzymes) to the tank?

I sail in chilly SF (not sure if it makes a difference) but I don't have excessive heat that I would imagine wreaks havoc on the tank.

Either way, any hands on advice would be much appreciated!

 

[Christian Williams]

1981 30+ is the boat.

Well, it it were me, I would go to a pumpout station, pour millions of gallons of citrus cleaner solution into the holding tank, pump it through the system, pump it out of the tank , repeat until tired of doing it. (This assuming you have no overboard discharge and only a holding tank).

Then I'd see how things smelled and looked. And if I could live with it.

The test for the hoses is: run a wet rag on them. It the rag smells bad, the hoses are permeated with stink and should be replaced.

If effluent backs up into the bowl, which is common, it's probably the joker valve. Rubber one-way valve that needs periodic replacement.

Nobody uses that "perfumed" odor treatment anymore, and often the stench is the perfume. Everybody in his right mind uses OdorLos. https://www.walmart.com/ip/ODORLOS-4OZ-PACKETS-10-PER-BOX/171006325

Glyn Judson has a formula for a simple muriatic acid head wash that often works wonders with ancient guck. If he doesn't see this, send him a private message.

At some point somebody probably has to rebuild the whole system, of course. But maybe you can put it off.

When the time comes, pay somebody to do it.

 

[Loren Beach]

Just.. dive right in...

Plus One to Christian's post.
(Especially the part about how to tell if a hose is bad. Massaging the hose surface with a hot wet rag really works. This method will confirm a permeated diesel fill hose, also.)

As for a reformat of the complete head, hoses, holding tank, valves, and pump out system, I have done this once and have very little desire to do it again. There is a lot of labor involved, and if hired out @ about $100/hour it adds up pretty quick.
Good news is that modern hose formulations should last for decades without permeation, so your labor will last a long time if you DIY.
There are several good threads on this site about the subject.
Here is mine:
http://www.ericsonyachts.org/infoex...-Holding-Tank-Piping-amp-Valves&referrerid=28

Wear vinyl gloves. Have some large plastic bags on hand to wrap up hoses and parts for transport to a dumpster. Wipe down all of the revealed hull surfaces with a bleach/soap combo. Clean surfaces do not harbor mold or odor.

But, you knew that.


Good luck.

ps: post up some photos of the 'before' and the 'after'

 

[jacksonkev]

1981 30+ is the boat.

Well, it it were me, I would go to a pumpout station, pour millions of gallons of citrus cleaner solution into the holding tank, pump it through the system, pump it out of the tank , repeat until tired of doing it. (This assuming you have no overboard discharge and only a holding tank).

Then I'd see how things smelled and looked. And if I could live with it.

The test for the hoses is: run a wet rag on them. It the rag smells bad, the hoses are permeated with stink and should be replaced.

If effluent backs up into the bowl, which is common, it's probably the joker valve. Rubber one-way valve that needs periodic replacement.

Nobody uses that "perfumed" odor treatment anymore, and often the stench is the perfume. Everybody in his right mind uses OdorLos. https://www.walmart.com/ip/ODORLOS-4OZ-PACKETS-10-PER-BOX/171006325

Glyn Judson has a formula for a simple muriatic acid head wash that often works wonders with ancient guck. If he doesn't see this, send him a private message.

At some point somebody probably has to rebuild the whole system, of course. But maybe you can put it off.

When the time comes, pay somebody to do it.

Thank you Christian, this is great advice. Just what I was looking for!

 

[Christian Williams]

Here's part of an old Glyn post....

[h=2]Hose & pump odor.[/h]

Start using Odorlos (available at West Marine and others) in your head system and the smell will begin to go away immediately. Within weeks, certainly less than a month all the odors will be completely gone. If you want to speed up the process, flush the system in the following manner: A. Make a 50/50 mix of muriatic acid and water, (2 quarts in a plastic bucket). B. Pour 1 qt. into a dry bowl, let it stand for 15 minutes and flush down. C. Repeat with a second quart as above. D. Flush the tank thoroughly* and add 1 oz. of Odorlos solution per 10 gallons of tank capacity to the tank through bowl. *Thoroughly means at least 2-3 complete fillings and refillings of the toilet, hoses and holding tank with fresh or salt water. Odorlos WILL NOT WORK if there is any other treatment chemical in the system. You do not have to replace hoses, tanks and pumps to rid your boat of head odor. Good luck, Glyn Judson E31 hull #55, Marina del Rey, CA​

 

[Bolo]

Helps if you've had young kids or babies.

Many years ago, when we bought Vesper (E32-3), on of the first things I noticed and knew I had to attend to was the head. The hoses reeked, even the waste tank. Plus there was a "Y" valve in the system and even more hoses because of that extra plumbing. We sail only on the Chesapeake Bay out of Annapolis (for now) so since you can't dump into the bay (and would never want to) I pulled the "Y" valve, all of the hoses and even replaced the tank. It was a good thing that, during my younger married years, I had a fair amount of experience in changing diapers. The smell was so bad that the 1st mate retreated to the fore deck and when it got to bad there, to the dock with a good book. I also rebuilt the head pump and added a tank monitor to the side of the tank. I was all worth it because there is a lot more room in the locker under the head sink and the horrible smell is long gone. I keep on top of things with regular pump outs and treatments of Odorlos. About every year I need to replace the joker valve because of "back flow" and I'm pretty good at it now. I think my record is 20 seconds.

In a related story, my 1st mate and I were sailing near Oxford, MD and were flagged down by the Coast Guard. They had us hove to and then boarded to check our papers and, more importantly, our head. The very young "Coastie" asked if he could see the "Y" valve. "Y" valves are suppose to be locked in the closed position when sailing the bay. I told him I didn't have one which by the look by the look on his face was the answer he didn't want to hear. So I showed him my "Y"-less setup which prevented any chance that anything could be pumped overboard since the hose went only to the tank. He was impressed to say the least and I just thought that this kid needs to get a real life. (Does your mother know that you're carrying around that big 9MM on your hip?!) After checking the plumbing, flares, extinguishes and so on we went back on deck where I found my 1st mate having a lovely conversation, with the other (female) coast that came aboard, about the new shoes my lovely wife had recently purchased. So much for the training exercise.

 

[supersailor]

Also try fresh water for the flush (pour in bow)l. Two years ago, I replaced the head with a Raritan Elegance fresh water flush model. Replaced all the existing mickey mouse cheap hoses with Trident 101 and flushed the tank. No odors now and the Elegance uses very little fresh water. That salt water creates a huge amount of odors all by itself.

 

[Christian Williams]

I think that's a key point. All you need is a simple diverter valve on the sink drain so the sink drain can lead to the head.

Salt water bowl rinsing introduces microorganisms into all those holes around the rim, which discolor and smell, and apparentlty gunk grows inside the hoses, which results in those mysterious bits of dark stuff when you flush--even with open ocean sea water. Or anyway, fresh water rinsing greatly improved my head environment.

Here's my "instructions" card in the head:

To Flush the Head
1. Pump the handle to clear the bowl.
2. To rinse the bowl, fill the sink with cold water.
3. Depress foot pedal (hidden under bowl, left side)
and pump the handle again. Repeat if needed.
Please flush toilet paper only. Disposal bags
are provided under the vanity sink.​

 

[jacksonkev]

Well, it it were me, I would go to a pumpout station, pour millions of gallons of citrus cleaner solution into the holding tank, pump it through the system, pump it out of the tank , repeat until tired of doing it.

Thanks again...I've got a couple questions....

I googled "citrus cleaner" and the word citrus seems to be added to every type of cleaner. I'm assuming nothing foaming (like citrus soaps) or anything that might not react well in the system (like degreasers). But I'm not exactly sure. Is there an obvious, recommended cleaner that you'd recommend?

Also, would you pump the citrus cleaner thru the head into the holding tank then pump it out or pour citrus cleaner and hose water into the holding tank deck fill or do both? Sorry if this is super obvious stuff but I have never owned a boat with a head/holding tank and would hate to make an obvious mistake.

Reminds me of the time I accidentally filled our head holding tank with fresh water instead of our water tank while on a bareboat charter in the Grenadines. Fun stuff.

 

[jacksonkev]

I found this advice online....

anyone ever try it? Liquid Calgon Water Softener?


[h=1]Keeping the Holding Tank Clean (click to open Jamestown article)[/h]

 

[mkollerjr]

replace everything

We tried various flushing out options, but nothing really totally got the smell out (my partner has the nose of a hound dog). We wound up replacing everything. Looking back on it, it wasn't that bad of a job and saved hundreds by doing it ourselves. Just need to put on the rubber gloves and goggles and rip it all out. Once that is done, it's all clean work. The worst thing to do is prolong it and try replacing a hose here and there.

http://www.ericsonyachts.org/infoexchange/entry.php?230-Replacing-the-Sanitation-System

 

[jacksonkev]

Hose & pump odor.

Start using Odorlos (available at West Marine and others) in your head system and the smell will begin to go away immediately. Within weeks, certainly less than a month all the odors will be completely gone. If you want to speed up the process, flush the system in the following manner: A. Make a 50/50 mix of muriatic acid and water, (2 quarts in a plastic bucket). B. Pour 1 qt. into a dry bowl, let it stand for 15 minutes and flush down. C. Repeat with a second quart as above. D. Flush the tank thoroughly* and add 1 oz. of Odorlos solution per 10 gallons of tank capacity to the tank through bowl. *Thoroughly means at least 2-3 complete fillings and refillings of the toilet, hoses and holding tank with fresh or salt water. Odorlos WILL NOT WORK if there is any other treatment chemical in the system. You do not have to replace hoses, tanks and pumps to rid your boat of head odor. Good luck, Glyn Judson E31 hull #55, Marina del Rey, CA​

T(h)anks! I missed this earlier. I'll do this since it's been a while. Seems like a good starting point.

 

[Teranodon]

I did a major rebuild last year. There were smells, plus the toilet was getting hard to flush.

Replaced the low-rent, smelly hoses with Trident 101. You really have to wrestle with this stuff.

Removed the holding tank and flushed out tons of scale. Dropped it on my finger (%!$!#@!!). Installed a transparent inspection port (truly for use only when absolutely necessary).

Another ton of scale came out of the Raritan toilet. Used muriatic acid on that. Then discovered a crack, previously sealed by the scale, so had to order the part, plus a rebuild kit with o-rings and the all-important flapper and joker valves (both had been very heavily encrusted).

Installed a SCAD tank monitor and, most importantly, a Groco SweetTank bubbler. It continuously pumps air up from the bottom of the tank, which inhibits stinky anaerobic bacteria. I find it works very well. No chemicals, no smell, very low power consumption. The only (minor) downside: on quiet nights at anchor, have to turn it off. I highly recommend it.

During the cold winter, I haven't been doing this, but I'll start soon: periodically flushing with mineral oil (to lubricate the pump seals, rings) and with vinegar (for the scale). I might add a fresh water flush option from the sink, but am reluctant for obvious reasons.

Can't say that I had a lot of fun with this, but I feel good having done it. I had always avoided dealing with the blackwater system, and that's not a good attitude for an owner to have, right?

 

[markvone]

+1 Replace it all

I second what mkollerjr said: Once you get the tank and old hoses out it is all clean work (except rebuilding the head, which I didn't think was that bad).

Plan extra time to make changes and improvements now or you will have to do the dirty part again.

Two of my hoses (head to tank and tank to OB pump) exit the bottom of my tank. I pulled my tank with these two 4 foot long hose stubs still attached. Since the other ends of these hoses were both above tank top level I used cheap pvc threaded pipe plugs to plug the ends of the two 1 1/2 inch hoses, wrapped plastic wrap around the hose end with the plug screwed into the hose ID and then stuffed this in a heavy Ziploc bag sealed with a tight rubber band. No runs, drips or errors during tank removal.

I read and recommend Peggie Hall's book "Get Rid of Boat Odors", the bible for this topic. My only disagreement with Peggie is that you can rebuild a nice Raritan PHII easier, faster and cheaper many times at $75 before you need to replace it for $415.

https://www.amazon.com/New-Get-Rid-Boat-Odors-ebook/dp/B01BW2ZSTW

Use the best sanitary hose you can buy.

Venting and oxygenation of the tank is the key to an odorless holding tank.

I upgraded to an 1 1/2 inch vent (from 5/8 inch) and have zero odor now.

I added freshwater flush but forget to use it most of the season. It does make winterization and using the head in winter super easy.

I use Odorlos when I remember.

I added the SCAD tank monitor and a transparent inspection port, haven't got the SCAD calibrated properly yet but the inspection port works.

Mark

 

[Glyn Judson]

Head dilema

Dear friend, By all means follow others suggestions if you wish but to save yourself a lot of time, effort and money, please try the muriatic acid/Odorlos method first. Give it s chance to do its thing and virtually all head odor will be nothing more than a bad nightmare. Glyn Judson, E31 hull #55, Marina del rey CA

 

[jacksonkev]

Dear friend, By all means follow others suggestions if you wish but to save yourself a lot of time, effort and money, please try the muriatic acid/Odorlos method first. Give it s chance to do its thing and virtually all head odor will be nothing more than a bad nightmare. Glyn Judson, E31 hull #55, Marina del rey CA

Funny thing (and I think I'm going to chalk this one up as a miracle)...I went down to the boat today to do the investigative part of the project. I pulled apart the v-berth and removed all the false bottoms of the bulkheads to have the guts of my holding tank and hoses in plain view. The first thing I noticed was that it smelled pretty damn good in there. Almost neutral (which in the boat speak is akin to roses). I poked around a bit and to my surprise, the the whole setup is in pristine condition. I then went to the bowl and noticed some sludge in the very bottom but not all that bad. I fished around the cabinet under the sink in the head and found some C.P. Potty Cleaner (from the PO). I spilled some in, filled the bowl, let it sit for an hour and pumped it dry. A bunch of crud came out of the bowl rim but I did it again and it ran clear. And ODOR FREE. Not sure what I did to deserve this but I'll take it.

I then went hunting around the boat like a bloodhound to find the cause of the odor. I found a section of bilge near the mast post that had some disgusting standing water and I sponge bailed it out and gave it a quick clean with some eco-cleaner, aired out the boat, drank a beer and she's as good as new.

I think I might drive to Vegas tonight and bet it all on black!

Thank you everyone for your insight and advice...I will be sure to pass along or use it down the road.

 

[Glyn Judson]

Odorlos uses.

Dear friend, Years ago when talking to a chemical engineer at the Odorlos Florida office, I was told that their biggest customers are tankers and freighters who use it by the gallon poured into the standing water of their bilges as a way of ridding the bowels of the ship from the horrible odor. So don't be shy about pouring some into your own bilges too. Glyn Judson, E31 hull #55, Marina del Rey CA

 

[jacksonkev]

Dear friend, Years ago when talking to a chemical engineer at the Odorlos Florida office, I was told that their biggest customers are tankers and freighters who use it by the gallon poured into the standing water of their bilges as a way of ridding the bowels of the ship from the horrible odor. So don't be shy about pouring some into your own bilges too. Glyn Judson, E31 hull #55, Marina del Rey CA

Great idea! Thanks!

 

[Rick R.]

Here is what we did and do......do

i replaced all hoses, the head and the holding tank. We use our boat all of the time for multiple day trips so the head does get used a lot. When we come back to the marina, I stop by the fuel dock and have them pump he tank refill with fresh water and repeat (3times).

While theyre doing that, I'm cleaning the head and the area around the head with bleach then hose it down, being careful not to get any bleach in the head.

Lastly, I flush the head with fresh water so that the line to the holding tank has water in it and not waste.

No smells, clean and worth the effort.

 

[u079721]

I'm pretty sure I've mentioned this before, but I'll add it to this thread. Those of us in the Great Lakes typically use as little water as possible when flushing to extend the capacity of the holding tank. And as a result the waste sits part of the time in the hose, not the tank where the treatment chemicals usually are, and odors begin to leak from the hose. For that reason I started adding an ounce or so of Odorlos with each "deposit" into the bowl to help prevent odors in the hose. The result was dramatic, and the only thing you could smell on Rag Doll was the teak oil.