Boatyard blues

[Rocinante33]

My E-33 has been hauled for a bottom job. A P/O previously had a barrier coat put on, but they apparently used crappy epoxy that aborbs water....exactly what it is supposed to prevent! So, there were ~200 blisters to grind & fill. They quoted me ~10 hours labor @ $75/hr. I told them to do it, but they came back with 16.2 hours actual time spent. I am not happy about the difference.

They are also saying the keel to hull joint needs to be glassed in ~ estimate 4-6 hours more labor! (I know many Ericsons have encapsulated keels, but the Ron Holland designs are external lead keels). If I do that, the $1400 bottom job will run $3K! It has been fine like that for the 3 years I have owned the boat. Should I pass on that this time?

With sticker shock,
Keith:unsure:

 

[treilley]

I would say if the boat is not leaking around the joint then don't worry about it. You should ensure that the keel bolts are properly torqued. If you feel it should be fixed, do it yourself. Mix up some thickened West system epoxy and fair the joint but I bet the crack will be back next year. Most boats flex a little in this area and it is normal for the joint to open a little. This is so much easier than people think.

As far as the estimate is concerned, you are really at the mercy of the boatyard. Unfortunately your boat will stay in their yard until you pay every last penny of that bill. Some yards are notorious for this type of behavior and then holding your boat hostage to get the bill paid. We have one around here that has even charged owners for work they did not do and forced the owner to pay. I do most of my own work. A good friend is a marine mechanic and we help work on each other's boats. He works at the yard where my boat is hauled(Brewers) and they are great. A little more expensive then others but I trust them with my baby which scores big in my book. I keep my boat at home now but at one time they stored it for me. They used the specs of a Pearson 28-2 to calculate the storage rate for my Pearson 28-1 which is a tiny bit narrower but dropped it down to the next nearest ft. for billing purposes. They took my word for it and adjusted my bill accordingly. They also winterized my head for free when I did not select that on my decommisioning sheet.

Don't be too quick to blame the epoxy paint for your blisters. Even the best paint like Interlux2000 will promote blistering if applied over a bottom that has not been properly dried.

 

[Frank Langer]

Keith,
Sorry to hear about your boat haul/bottom job woes! But I think this isn't altogether uncommon.

I think Ericsons with the external keel (and may other boats with similar stub/keel configurations, like C*C, etc.) develop a crack at the keel/hull joint. While I don't know your financial situation, this won't get better on its own, and may eventually contribute to keel bolt corrosion. Therefore I would tend to get it fixed now, rather than wait and only have to do it later. I would ask them to glass the entire joint, not just the area that shows the crack now. If it were me, I would also sleep better at night knowing that the boat is being well cared for and required maintenance done.

But I would ask them for a firm estimate, with stipulation that they call you if there is any change, before proceeding with anything above the estimate. :0305_alar

Good luck and keep us posted on how it goes.

Frank.

 

[Chris Miller]

good boatyard is hard to find...
If you can skip the keel stuff for now and take it somewhere more reputable, I think I would. More than 20% difference should have gotten a call
Chris

 

[Frank Langer]

Yeah, a better boat yard would be good, but that would mean re-floating the boat and hauling it again somewhere else--the additional cost, unless you know somewhere you can do this for free, is likely not worth it, unless you really don't trust these guys at all.
Tough decisions.....
Frank.

 

[ChrisS]

My old Ranger 23 had the keel-hull crack, and I was told that they all had them. The time to worry was when there were rust stains coming from a the crack--a sign that the keel bolts were rusting. Had I kept the Ranger, I would have re-bedded the keel at some point, but only if I saw the rust stains. Plus, you'd see some loss of bedding compound. No one in the Ranger community had ever heard of a boat's keel just coming off, so people didn't seem to sweat the crack (sorry for the unintended pun).

I too had a terrible boat yard experience this year (they had my boat for six weeks instead of the promised two, the yard owner had no control over the yard boss), and I will really search hard next time to find a better yard, if I can't do the work myself. However, I figure it was a warm up for the home remodel we're going to start soon!

--Chris

 

[NateHanson]

Another approach to that hull-keel crack, if there's no rust water weeping out, is to haul it, let it dry for a winter, and then grind a beveled groove around the top of the keel with a dremel (just an 1/8" or so), and fill it with a nice bead of 5200. Then put bottom paint over that once it's had a while to cure. It's a much quicker solution than glassing it in, won't crack if the keel flexes a normal amount, and should keep any water from getting at the keel bolts.

 

[Loren Beach]

Keel joint notes

"Input from the peanut gallery"
Having had our keep dropped and rebedded several years ago, I would opt for that as a more permanent fix. It seems to me that if, for any reason, the joint where the lead meets the FRP hull is widening out, that glassing over that crack is just putting a band-aid on rather than addressing the root problem.


When ours was dropped, the top of the keel casting was flat. The hull mating surface was flat. So, when these two surfaces are torqued up tightly with 5200 laid in there, there is only a hairline crack (after wiping up all the excess sealant). Note that painting over this crack will never completely disguise it -- the coefficient of expansion between the materials would always cause a line to reappear in the cover coating, IMO.

Appearances to the side, the big worry, IMHO, is having any water seep into the big SS threaded rods (aka "keel bolts") and corrode the metal.
This is a particularly bad form of corrosion that happens in oxygen-starved areas with SS.

If I had to pick a round number for a keel rebed, I would be thinking of something like "25 years", or less if there is any leakage into the bilge, or the crack starts growing (or seaping water when hauled out).

After our keel was rebedded in 5200, there has not been any reoccurance of the former leak, and the keel-hull joint is visible because the bottom paint spalls off the 5200. Keel looks like it has not moved at all since.

Our boat is out for repainting now, and here is a pic of the whole keel and a close up of the joint. This is 3 yr old paint, after the pressure wash when lifted a few days ago.
The little bronze plate you see is the heat exchanger for the fridge.

Loren in PDX

 

[SAILSHIGH]

This worked for me.

All,

This happened to me on my old Hunter. I was given the advice of cleaning out the seam with a steel brush and then using some acetone to clean the surface. I then filled the crack with 5200(black) and then painted the bottom.
I sailed this way for 3 years. Then when we pulled the boat for a hull inspection it was still sealed solid. I never had leaks in the seam or water in the Bilge.

I am just a "Shade Tree" person. This seemed to work well for me. I sailed that boat 3-4 times a month during that 3 years.

The best of luck,

 

[Martin King]

I'm with Loren. The keel should be rebedded in 5200. Sorry about
your so called barrier coat. I'm a firm believer in West epoxy. I've done
2 of my personal boats bottoms with it following their instructions
for barrier coating to the letter and havn't had any trouble. Moreover
it is used as the primary adhesive in my dad's big boat projects-boats
costing millions-and it's good enough for them.

Martin
E31C

 

[jkenan]

I'm Curious on other's experiences with boatyards, both positive and negative, and what advice people have on how to approach a yard when contracting for service.

I had a terrible yard experience after buying my boat from a yard in MD, but a great experience once I found a yard I could trust in my boat's home port. The owner of the yard I brought my boat from, who also the broker, made several verbal promises in the transaction which he never kept. When it came time to launch, all those verbal promises that wern't in writing suddenly had an invoice associated with them (he also gave me a hard time about doing much of the work myself). All this ultimately cost me many $K more than I had budgeted, and left me quite angry from being treated what I thought was unfairly. I guess it was my fault for not getting our agreement in writing, but live and learn. Jaded from that experience, I vowed to do as much of the maintenance as I could within my ability - and to expand my ability! That is silver lining, and I have learned much about boat maintenance I might not have otherwise.

That said, I've worked with a yard in Oriental, NC I like very much. They are knowledgable, and support DIY owners with expert advice. Invariably, they get significant work from these owners who realize their limitations. A healthy, simbiotic relationship IMHO. That should be your guage in choosing a yard.

 

[roger hinds]

Keel Joint Crack

Keith, I'm with the camp that believes the keel must be removed to be properly rebed. What goes between the keel joints, is what is important. Covering the crack is mostly cosmetic, and I've found that by cleaning the crack up and smoothing over it with a flexable sellant like 101 or 5200 does the job. And Keith, I feel your pain about the additional hours billed above the quote. I just got my boat out of the yard a short time ago. I was quoted 26 hrs. labor, but was billed 42 hrs, "ouch"! There went my dream of new electronics this winter.

Roger Hinds
E-34

 

[Loren Beach]

More Keel info

There is already an excellent keel thread on this site regarding rebedding and bolt corrosion/repair. If you have not visited it lately, you might want to take a look.

Note that every thread has, in the "Thread Tools" label above it, a choice to condense the whole text part of the thread down for economical printing or saving. Of course you could also drag any photos you like off to your desktop, as well. But, you knew that, right?

http://www.ericsonyachts.org/infoexchange/showthread.php?t=3448&referrerid=28

Stay dry,
Loren in stormy Portland, OR