Buyer's Panic - E32

Kenneth K

1985 32-3, Puget Sound
Blogs Author
After a long winter of leisurely scouring both the internet and most of the marinas from Tacoma to Vancouver, it was time to finally pick a boat. I found a very pretty 1985 E32-3 on Flathead Lake in Montana and worked a deal for the seller to help a little with shipment to Seattle. The problem now isn’t that the survey went poorly, but that it went well. The PO (a second owner) did a great job of operating this vessel for the last 20 years without burning up the engine, cracking the decks, scratching the hull, or letting the ports & windows get leaky.

It has only been during the past week that I’ve realized what I’m really buying here, and how the responsibility will be on me to maintain a “quality” boat. Spending $30+K on a sailboat is, it seems, like shelling out $15K for a diesel engine at ($715 per hP) and $15K+ for everything else. The “everything else” pile (hull/deck/rigging/sails/instruments and cabin appointments) seems pretty manageable, in that most of it can be worked on piecemeal in 1-2 day projects (oh, if only that were true). I can still daysail without instruments, or a working head, or sleeping arrangements for 5. But, take away the thing that makes the prop go round-and-round, and the whole idea of sailing a 32 footer, or at least the idea of returning home after afterward, seems a bit more complicated.

And it was with this realization that I had to admit it: I don’t know the first thing about diesels, marine or otherwise. Sure, some parts look familiar; the fan belt (minus the fan), the alternator, the radiator cap. But, wait, that’s not a radiator. And, if I’ve read the sailing blogs correctly, my factory-issue Universal M25 alternator bracket is waiting to free itself from the restrictive confines of its gear case mounting bolt any day now, just so it can poke a few holes in my oil filter; or worse. And, until it does so, I still have to sweat the 50A of current coursing through those nasty orange-and-red wires and “trailer connectors” running to my engine-panel-mounted ammeter. And this is all occurring on the nicest boat I could find after months of searching. And it’s not even mine yet.

HELP!

Frankly, I was a bit more at ease when I could just fantasize about buying a turn-key boat and sailing off into the sunset, beer-in-hand, a couple of days a week. So, while I greatly appreciate all the insight and advice I’ve read online, I’m hoping I can ask for a little help getting my upkeep and repair priorities in order. Elsewise, I fear I’m going to be the guy who unravels the last 31 years of care and attention the POs gave this boat by destroying the motor or burning the hull to the waterline within the first 6 months under my watch.

So, what should the priority list be here?

1. Remast and re-rig the boat and enjoy the rest of the summer? (The M-25 and electrical system have been fine for thirty-one years…….what’s the worst that could happen?)

2. Replace the alternator bracket; inspect the trailer connectors and ammeter wires; see #1 above? (What might it cost to have the alternator bracket replaced?)

3. Bight the bullet and opt for the long haul…. re-wire, re-bracket, then keep going: Replace & re-zinc the heat exchanger, replace pumps, hoses, clamps and the next five or six items most sensible items on the list (I don’t have a list…..what should be on it????). What might this scope of repairs cost? The engine has 2100 hours on it now. Surveyor said it should get to 5000 if properly cared for. It started right up from winterization; no oil, no vibrations. Surveyor noted only a slight “steaming” of the exhaust after 20 min under power (though, the hot water tank was empty at the time).

Comments greatly appreciated…..
 
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bgary

Advanced Beginner
Blogs Author
Comments greatly appreciated…..

Hi, Ken - and welcome!

And, assuming all goes well the purchase, an early congratulations!

Comments, in priority order:

1) Breathe. And take a moment to celebrate!

2) Recognize that what you're experiencing is the onset of NNBOS (Nervous New Boat Owner Syndrome) - closely related to New Mother Syndrome, in which the afflicted party fears that everything they do - or fail to do - will result in irreversible harm. I've had it. You've probably had it with prior boats. It's survivable. Breathe <grin>

3) IMHO, there's no clock ticking. There's no requirement that you get "everything done" by a certain date. Or at all. Frankly, the concept of "done" is sort of antithetical to the state of boat ownership - every boat always has unfinished projects. Over time, you'll add some to your list of finished projects, and others to your list of new projects. Nature of the beast.

4) At least for me, what helped a lot was to make some lists and start a "triage" approach. I had a list for launch; a list for safety concerns, a list for mechanical, a list for mast-stepping, a list for regular maintenance, a list for electronics, a list for.... well, lots of lists. But what that did for me is two things. Concretely, it gave me a way to see what needed doing in a structured way, prioritize the various tasks, and then celebrate a little each time I checked something off as done (progress!) And, two, putting it on paper helped me "see" that it wasn't some impossibly nebulous and unsolvable problem, it was a finite array of tangible things, each of which is quite do-able. That.... helped.

5) and clearly you already know the value of this place. People here have done everything that might be on your list, from replacing the alternator bracket to cleaning the teak. It's a phenomenal resource. Having recently moved a sistership overland to the Sound, I'm happy to help personally in any way I can.

Oh, and 6) I joined Boat-US, and paid an extra $129 bucks (I think) for their "unlimited towing" package. And another $100 for a handheld VHF. figured that while I was learning the boat/engine/systems, if I ever found myself without the means to get myself back home, those would be handy things. I've never needed a tow (knock on wood) but... knowing I have the option has taken a lot of stress out of my early adventures.

$.02
Bruce

PS - I like that #1 option, above. Enjoy the summer while you learn your boat.
 
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Don Smith

Member II
Buying a boat is kind of like getting married in that no matter how much fun you have in later years, you'll probably look back and realize that the first few months of ownership were the most fun and exciting. So relax and try to maximize your enjoyment now. I recommend that as long as the boat is seaworthy now, spend the summer sailing it as much as you can. You may decide that some of the changes you want to make now aren't necessary, and that there are some other changes you'd rather make.

Fair winds,

Captain Don
Gitana E26
 
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Alan Gomes

Sustaining Partner
After a long winter of leisurely scouring both the internet and most of the marinas from Tacoma to Vancouver, it was time to finally pick a boat. I found a very pretty 1985 E32-3 on Flathead Lake in Montana and worked a deal for the seller to help a little with shipment to Seattle. The problem now isn’t that the survey went poorly, but that it went well. The PO (a second owner) did a great job of operating this vessel for the last 20 years without burning up the engine, cracking the decks, scratching the hull, or letting the ports & windows get leaky.

It has only been during the past week that I’ve realized what I’m really buying here, and how the responsibility will be on me to maintain a “quality” boat. Spending $30+K on a sailboat is, it seems, like shelling out $15K for a diesel engine at ($715 per hP) and $15K+ for everything else. The “everything else” pile (hull/deck/rigging/sails/instruments and cabin appointments) seems pretty manageable, in that most of it can be worked on piecemeal in 1-2 day projects (oh, if only that were true). I can still daysail without instruments, or a working head, or sleeping arrangements for 5. But, take away the thing that makes the prop go round-and-round, and the whole idea of sailing a 32 footer, or at least the idea of returning home after afterward, seems a bit more complicated.

And it was with this realization that I had to admit it: I don’t know the first thing about diesels, marine or otherwise. Sure, some parts look familiar; the fan belt (minus the fan), the alternator, the radiator cap. But, wait, that’s not a radiator. And, if I’ve read the sailing blogs correctly, my factory-issue Universal M25 alternator bracket is waiting to free itself from the restrictive confines of its gear case mounting bolt any day now, just so it can poke a few holes in my oil filter; or worse. And, until it does so, I still have to sweat the 50A of current coursing through those nasty orange-and-red wires and “trailer connectors” running to my engine-panel-mounted ammeter. And this is all occurring on the nicest boat I could find after months of searching. And it’s not even mine yet.

HELP!

Frankly, I was a bit more at ease when I could just fantasize about buying a turn-key boat and sailing off into the sunset, beer-in-hand, a couple of days a week. So, while I greatly appreciate all the insight and advice I’ve read online, I’m hoping I can ask for a little help getting my upkeep and repair priorities in order. Elsewise, I fear I’m going to be the guy who unravels the last 31 years of care and attention the POs gave this boat by destroying the motor or burning the hull to the waterline within the first 6 months under my watch.

So, what should the priority list be here?

1. Remast and re-rig the boat and enjoy the rest of the summer? (The M-25 and electrical system have been fine for thirty-one years…….what’s the worst that could happen?)

2. Replace the alternator bracket; inspect the trailer connectors and ammeter wires; see #1 above? (What might it cost to have the alternator bracket replaced?)

3. Bight the bullet and opt for the long haul…. re-wire, re-bracket, then keep going: Replace & re-zinc the heat exchanger, replace pumps, hoses, clamps and the next five or six items most sensible items on the list (I don’t have a list…..what should be on it????). What might this scope of repairs cost? The engine has 2100 hours on it now. Surveyor said it should get to 5000 if properly cared for. It started right up from winterization; no oil, no vibrations. Surveyor noted only a slight “steaming” of the exhaust after 20 min under power (though, the hot water tank was empty at the time).

Comments greatly appreciated…..
Kenneth,

I agree with others who counsel taking a deep breath. I also agree that you should prioritize what you tackle.

The most mission critical issue that I observed on your list is that M25 alternator bracket. You first of all need to ascertain whether you have the original bracket or if a previous owner may have replaced it with the updated one. Assuming it is original, and if it were me, I would not run the engine until I replaced it. Period. If you damage that timing gear cover you are going to be in a world of hurt--and yes, they do break. If you have the original setup then you are on borrowed time. They are almost impossible to find and when you do find one the cost is astronomical. Though I have never had to do that particular retrofit, from what I understand it's not that difficult. Search the archives of sailboatowners.com and you'll discover lots of chatter on this. The Catalina 34 site also probably has a good deal of info on it. But whether you do it yourself or pay someone else to do it, make this a priority and do it. Now.

Have I got your attention? :0

On the other hand, I think you are fretting too much about diesel engines in general. Diesels are very reliable beasts and the M25 is a great engine. Properly maintained, that engine will likely outlive both of us. (Or me, anyway....:)) The fact that yours starts right up and doesn't consume oil is an excellent sign. Just do your oil and filter changes and change the zinc and impeller on schedule and it should be very happy for years to come.

Two other points about that engine: The trailer plugs truly do suck. But you can fix that easily by cutting off the plugs on either side and attaching the wires with butt connectors. Get a good ratcheting crimper (a handy tool to have for the future anyway) and you should be able to eliminate that problem in no time. The other weak point is if you have the original 2" diameter heat exchanger. The 2" one was marginal and replacing it with at 3" dia. exchanger would be highly recommended (though not as mission critical as that alternator bracket). Other than the expense, swapping it out is trivial. You can get by with the 2" one provided that there are no blockages at all. But you have little margin with it. The fact that you were seeing some "steaming" makes me wonder about that. Monitor your temps carefully because overheating the engine is not a good thing. That engine should have a 165-deg. thermostat and should run at 165-deg. all day long and at any rpm. The temps should *not* go up just because you run it hard. I had an M25XP (the big brother to your M25) and the temp never budged from 165 no matter how I ran it. But then, I had a 3" exchanger.

Find someone who knows what he is doing to walk you through the basic oil, filter, impeller, and zinc changes. Take careful notes and photographs. If need be, you could pay a mechanic to do it the first time who would be willing to let you watch him work and ask questions. This is not hard stuff and you can save a bundle of money by doing the basic maintenance yourself. Then, you bring in a mechanic for the tricky things, should any arise.

Good luck to you and fret not! You'll do fine.
 

Christian Williams

E381 - Los Angeles
Senior Moderator
Blogs Author
I vote for #1.

You can install the new alternator bracket yourself in a few hours, and it will be a good introduction to the outside of the diesel, where you'll be changing oil and fuel filters and heat exchanger zincs. Our little engines are simple, reliable, and designed to be maintained by people like us.

https://www.catalinadirect.com/inde...versal-diesel-alternator-bracket-retrofit.cfm

The 32-3 is a great boat. I upgraded nearly everything on mine (now Bruce's), and this record of the work will give you an idea of potential jobs. If I can do it, anybody can.

http://www.ericsonyachts.org/infoexchange/entry.php?242-Table-of-Contents-for-Thelonious-Blog
 

Alan Gomes

Sustaining Partner

Kenneth K

1985 32-3, Puget Sound
Blogs Author
Thanks for all the advice. I think I'll mostly heed Alan's warning and run the engine only "occasionally" until I have the mod done. Still, it helps greatly to have the "critical list" down to a single item. I'm encouraged by everyone's faith in these marine diesels, and I'm okay with getting my hands dirty performing maintenance. But, my experience from boat-shopping was that 80% of what I saw (late 70s to mid 80s boats) had rebuilt or re-motored powerplants. Not many owners are getting "5000 hours" out of their engines.

I'm going to post some specific questions about the alternator bracket mod in the M&M section. I have some cooling system questions, too.

Alan, do you have a part number or link for the 3 inch heat exchanger. Sounds like something I'd want to do at a later date. Another of the E32-3s I looked at had a twice-rebuilt motor; both from overheats. Owner claimed a shredded impeller clogged the cooling system.
 

Alan Gomes

Sustaining Partner
Thanks for all the advice. I think I'll mostly heed Alan's warning and run the engine only "occasionally" until I have the mod done. Still, it helps greatly to have the "critical list" down to a single item. I'm encouraged by everyone's faith in these marine diesels, and I'm okay with getting my hands dirty performing maintenance. But, my experience from boat-shopping was that 80% of what I saw (late 70s to mid 80s boats) had rebuilt or re-motored powerplants. Not many owners are getting "5000 hours" out of their engines.

I'm going to post some specific questions about the alternator bracket mod in the M&M section. I have some cooling system questions, too.

Alan, do you have a part number or link for the 3 inch heat exchanger. Sounds like something I'd want to do at a later date. Another of the E32-3s I looked at had a twice-rebuilt motor; both from overheats. Owner claimed a shredded impeller clogged the cooling system.
Well, having learned my lesson from Christian's answer to you about the alternator bracket, I thought I'd look at the Catalina Direct site. Here you go: http://www.catalinadirect.com/index...ger-for-m-25-m-25xp-m-35-w-3-diameter-oem.cfm. Not sure if that price is any good so you might shop around. I think you should call these folks and see what they say: http://www.lencocoolers.com/. And again, I'd recommend checking out the Catalina 34 message board, which likely has a good number of posts on this very subject. But obviously, before you do anything else, measure yours to confirm the size that you already have.

Most of the 70's boats that you looked at were originally powered with an Atomic 4 gas engine, so the fact that they were repowered with diesels would not be a relevant data point as far as diesel reliability goes. As for "shredded impellers," though an impeller could just up and fail prematurely, my guess is that the owner tried to run the impeller past its useful life. I typically change mine seasonally, or maybe every season and a half, which is more often than necessary. But I've never had one shuck its vanes, either. Which again goes to the original point: maintain them well and they will give you great and long service.
 

Christian Williams

E381 - Los Angeles
Senior Moderator
Blogs Author
I had absolute zero problems with the 2" heat exchanger on the M25. Overheating can have many, many causes.

Aside from safety upgrades, use the boat a while and get a feel for its eccentricities. Priorities automatically arrange themselves.
 

Kenneth K

1985 32-3, Puget Sound
Blogs Author
I had absolute zero problems with the 2" heat exchanger on the M25. Overheating can have many, many causes.

Aside from safety upgrades, use the boat a while and get a feel for its eccentricities. Priorities automatically arrange themselves.

ie, You fight the fire that's closest to your feet......
 

Kenneth K

1985 32-3, Puget Sound
Blogs Author
Well, having learned my lesson from Christian's answer to you about the alternator bracket, I thought I'd look at the Catalina Direct site. Here you go: http://www.catalinadirect.com/index...ger-for-m-25-m-25xp-m-35-w-3-diameter-oem.cfm. Not sure if that price is any good so you might shop around. I think you should call these folks and see what they say: http://www.lencocoolers.com/. And again, I'd recommend checking out the Catalina 34 message board, which likely has a good number of posts on this very subject.

Thanks for the links. You just saved me an hour of internet searching.....
 

markvone

Sustaining Member
Ken,

If your new boat is in good shape and running well, it will run well for you. Prioritize what is on the list around going sailing. It took 4 years for the first thing to happen to my boat that wasn't already on the list and had to be fixed ASAP - water in the fuel. The only other thing was a dead battery charger during winter #5. Meanwhile, I have had 5 seasons of sailing and 5 winters to work through my list, upgrade and really get to know everything about my boat.

Do replace the alternator bracket as a high priority.

Do look at the trailer plugs. BUT, I still have mine from 1981. I spent my second or third winter checking, labelling and re-wiring most of the DC system but never got to the engine to engine panel wiring. It's still on my list to remove the trailer plugs but it's also still working fine.

Consider inspecting/working on the mast when it comes off the truck and is already dis-assembled and on the ground. This is less important if the mast is dropped regularly in your area.

When my boat arrived from California on the truck, I took the opportunity to inspect the mast since it was down and dis-assembled. I upgraded all the 30 year old mast wiring, lights, halyards, sheaves and VHF antenna. Most importantly, I had a rigger inspect all the standing rigging. I was not in a position to just replace it all as a precaution, so a thorough inspection on the ground was highly valuable. All the suspect looking parts were replaced, along with turnbuckle screws as recommended by Navtec and my lower spreader tips were also repaired.

I did not have any engine issues my first season, except minor overheating on long runs over an hour which I rarely did. I learned all the engine details and did the engine oil change, hoses, pump impellors and the 3" HE upgrade the first winter AFTER the sailing season. I didn't even change the fuel filters until I had water in my fuel in season 4 due to low hours and zero problems.

I doubt you will have any serious issues to worry about or prevent you from sailing. If something pops up you need to fix ASAP, you'll fix it. If it is something minor and already on your list, you already have a head start in planning and maybe it can wait a few months and not get in the way of sailing.

Mark
 
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Randy Rutledge

Sustaining Member
TO give an example of things we think we need on a boat. When I bought Rumkin I thought a blender and a microwave would be the first must haves. After 12 years no blender, a microwave was given by my girlfriend a couple of years ago and it has been used only a few times.

These are not seaworthy items but an example of things we think we need an are not totally needed.

The list will grow and items completed and items deleted.
 
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