NaplesbobT
Junior Member
"Peregrine" has developed a small water leak over the port chainplates. Your experience please in handling this repair. 
Chainplate maintenance
- Thread starter NaplesbobT
- Start date
-
- Tags
- chainplate maintenance
gareth harris
Sustaining Member
Time consuming, but not all that hard.
1. The inner shrouds will hold the mast up while you take the tension off the main shrouds. You do not need to disconnect them from the chainplates completely, just make the shrouds completely loose.
2. Unscrew the metal cover plates on the deck.
3. If you have the wooden covers over the chainplates in the cabin, take them off (and I would say throw them away, as they do not allow the main bulkhead to breathe at a common source of leake). Unscrew the chainplate bolts, remove the chainplates up through the deck.
4. Ericson ran the chainplates through cored deck, which, since chainplates move enough that they tend to leak a lot, causes problems. Once you have cleaned the area, dig out some of the coring around the hole, and fill it with thickened epoxy. Cover the chainplate with wax, and insert it back through - the intent is to make the epoxy fit tightly around the chainplate without bonding to it. If you are not familiar with this, try Don Casey's Hull and Deck repair, which talks about it in detail.
5. Once the epoxy has cured, pull the chainplate out, clean it up, and rebed it with polysulphide.
6. Retune the rigging.
I hope this helps.
Gareth
Freyja E35 #241 1972
1. The inner shrouds will hold the mast up while you take the tension off the main shrouds. You do not need to disconnect them from the chainplates completely, just make the shrouds completely loose.
2. Unscrew the metal cover plates on the deck.
3. If you have the wooden covers over the chainplates in the cabin, take them off (and I would say throw them away, as they do not allow the main bulkhead to breathe at a common source of leake). Unscrew the chainplate bolts, remove the chainplates up through the deck.
4. Ericson ran the chainplates through cored deck, which, since chainplates move enough that they tend to leak a lot, causes problems. Once you have cleaned the area, dig out some of the coring around the hole, and fill it with thickened epoxy. Cover the chainplate with wax, and insert it back through - the intent is to make the epoxy fit tightly around the chainplate without bonding to it. If you are not familiar with this, try Don Casey's Hull and Deck repair, which talks about it in detail.
5. Once the epoxy has cured, pull the chainplate out, clean it up, and rebed it with polysulphide.
6. Retune the rigging.
I hope this helps.
Gareth
Freyja E35 #241 1972
gareth harris
Sustaining Member
I forgot to mention, while the chainplates are out, I would take them to a machine shop and ask them to inspect them for cracks. They do not commonly fail, even when they are 35 years old, but if they do very bad things happen.
I had to replace mine only after a hurricane, the new ones were $100 each.
Sometimes it is hard writing responses to new members, since I do not know whether this is stating the obvious or totally confusing to you. If you have more questions, ask.
G
I had to replace mine only after a hurricane, the new ones were $100 each.
Sometimes it is hard writing responses to new members, since I do not know whether this is stating the obvious or totally confusing to you. If you have more questions, ask.
G
NaplesbobT
Junior Member
Chainplate maintenance, cont.
Gareth Harris:
Thanks so much for your time and information. I am an ex-power boating fan, so although the "nautical scene" is not new to me, a lot of these basic sail problems are. Thanks also for the reference to Don Casey's "Hull and Deck Repair". Am I correct in assuming that this is a book, rather than a magazine article?
If I can impose, can I make sure of the procedure that you used? When you did this, you did it on the boat, without hauling it? And if so, you took the chainplates in pairs and did the work?
My chainplates are in "bright" stainless steel, or chromed. They appear to be in excellent condition, as far as I can tell. Is it possible to effect the repair without distroying or eliminating the Mahoganay wood cover? The leak that I have currently, is fairly small and only occurs in a good down pour, Is it possible to remove or lift the chainplate cap, and if the core is in good condition, resize it as you indicated with epoxy filler, then rebed it with 5200?
Would that approach work, or am I trying to simplyfy it to much?.
Gareth Harris:
Thanks so much for your time and information. I am an ex-power boating fan, so although the "nautical scene" is not new to me, a lot of these basic sail problems are. Thanks also for the reference to Don Casey's "Hull and Deck Repair". Am I correct in assuming that this is a book, rather than a magazine article?
If I can impose, can I make sure of the procedure that you used? When you did this, you did it on the boat, without hauling it? And if so, you took the chainplates in pairs and did the work?
My chainplates are in "bright" stainless steel, or chromed. They appear to be in excellent condition, as far as I can tell. Is it possible to effect the repair without distroying or eliminating the Mahoganay wood cover? The leak that I have currently, is fairly small and only occurs in a good down pour, Is it possible to remove or lift the chainplate cap, and if the core is in good condition, resize it as you indicated with epoxy filler, then rebed it with 5200?
Would that approach work, or am I trying to simplyfy it to much?.
John Bouchard
Member II
Chainplate Seal
I noticed Gareth's name on this thread, and I have a question for him, but that will be after I throw my nickel's worth of info to the thread's issue....
I think if you have a "small" leak, you can stop the leak by unscrewing the ss plate over the chainplate/deck interface, put some good calk around the chainplate where it protrudes through the deck, and return the small plate to position and re-screw. The plate will move as Gareth mentions, so this should be recaulked/resealed often - at least once/year.
But, and that's a big BUT, Gareth is pointing out a major problem with many Ericson's that have not been closely monitored over the years for these small leaks around the chainplates. The mahogany "covers" hide this problem very well. It is best to get rid of them. If you must keep them, you can remove by digging out the bungs that cover/hide the screws, unscrew and remove. You will have to replace the bungs later if you want to re-attach.
You should be able to check the condition of the wood on the backside of the bulkhead around the washers/nuts - perhaps in the hanging locker? That's where I could see it plainly on my E2.
The problem is that the mahogany-faced plywood rots with many years of water leaking into the grain at the top of the bulkhead. This wet-rot renders the chainplate holding strength to the bulkhead very week - the chainplate could be pulled right up through the deck (causing some nice damage right there...) and depending on other factors, you could loose the entire mast/rigging! Search this site for Chainplate issues.
This is a SERIOUS issue, and I would recommend that you have a knowledgeable friend look at the situation for you.
I had to replace three of the four bulkheads in my E32 two winters ago.
The other problem is wet-rot in the deck, which should be fixed up as Gareth has pointed out.
Finally, to Gareth - I have seen your name many times when folks ask about port light gaskets and fillers. Bear with me.... I think by filler, you mean the u-shaped rubbery/plastic "gasket" that sandwiches the glazing/glass in the channel around the inside perimeter of the frame (two halves...)?
I am interested in what was used as the gasket between the portlight frame and the outer cabin (fiberglass) surface. It seems to have been some type of "tape" - maybe closed cell foam with adhesive on both sides? It is this gasket material that I need, as several of my portlights need to be resealed, and I don't like using just plain caulk.
Do you know if this "tape" gasket is available anywhere? Thanks for any reply.
I noticed Gareth's name on this thread, and I have a question for him, but that will be after I throw my nickel's worth of info to the thread's issue....
I think if you have a "small" leak, you can stop the leak by unscrewing the ss plate over the chainplate/deck interface, put some good calk around the chainplate where it protrudes through the deck, and return the small plate to position and re-screw. The plate will move as Gareth mentions, so this should be recaulked/resealed often - at least once/year.
But, and that's a big BUT, Gareth is pointing out a major problem with many Ericson's that have not been closely monitored over the years for these small leaks around the chainplates. The mahogany "covers" hide this problem very well. It is best to get rid of them. If you must keep them, you can remove by digging out the bungs that cover/hide the screws, unscrew and remove. You will have to replace the bungs later if you want to re-attach.
You should be able to check the condition of the wood on the backside of the bulkhead around the washers/nuts - perhaps in the hanging locker? That's where I could see it plainly on my E2.
The problem is that the mahogany-faced plywood rots with many years of water leaking into the grain at the top of the bulkhead. This wet-rot renders the chainplate holding strength to the bulkhead very week - the chainplate could be pulled right up through the deck (causing some nice damage right there...) and depending on other factors, you could loose the entire mast/rigging! Search this site for Chainplate issues.
This is a SERIOUS issue, and I would recommend that you have a knowledgeable friend look at the situation for you.
I had to replace three of the four bulkheads in my E32 two winters ago.
The other problem is wet-rot in the deck, which should be fixed up as Gareth has pointed out.
Finally, to Gareth - I have seen your name many times when folks ask about port light gaskets and fillers. Bear with me.... I think by filler, you mean the u-shaped rubbery/plastic "gasket" that sandwiches the glazing/glass in the channel around the inside perimeter of the frame (two halves...)?
I am interested in what was used as the gasket between the portlight frame and the outer cabin (fiberglass) surface. It seems to have been some type of "tape" - maybe closed cell foam with adhesive on both sides? It is this gasket material that I need, as several of my portlights need to be resealed, and I don't like using just plain caulk.
Do you know if this "tape" gasket is available anywhere? Thanks for any reply.
NaplesbobT
Junior Member
For John Bouchard:
Thanks for your reply, I do intend to take care of the situation, as quickly as possible, but I do not want to turn a job, which could be done with minimal time and labor with experience such as yours and Gareth's, into major down time and cost, if at all possible. As per Gareth's advice, I ordered a copy of Don Casey's book on the subject, that along with the pearls of wisdom from the two of you, hopefully will get me through. If you have any more suggestions, I would sure appreciate hearing them.
By the way, I was down loading the 35-2 Owner's manual, just a little bit ago, (the prior owner of my boat did not have it). I was glancing thru it, and noticed the answer to your (John) question to Gareth, about the ports. In the manual, there is a section on general maintenance, under this there is several paragraphs on windows (ports). I quote from that the following:
The windows on your new Ericson are constructed in two halves.The exterior half which holds the window pane itself (this part of the manual was surely written by a landlubber), has a lip which overlaps the cut-out in the house side and compresses a strip of closed-cell tape, providing the primary seal between frame and house ---------. After a period of sailing, it is possible that some minor leaks may develop at the windows as they are designed to "float" on the foam tape strip. ---------- check the foam tape to be sure that it is soft and pliable and that it overlaps at the bottom join. If cracking or ageing is detected, replace it with a similar type of closed-cell foam tape which is available at many marine hardware stores."
If you have not done so already, you may want to download, at least that part of the manual.
Fair winds!
NaplesbobT
Thanks for your reply, I do intend to take care of the situation, as quickly as possible, but I do not want to turn a job, which could be done with minimal time and labor with experience such as yours and Gareth's, into major down time and cost, if at all possible. As per Gareth's advice, I ordered a copy of Don Casey's book on the subject, that along with the pearls of wisdom from the two of you, hopefully will get me through. If you have any more suggestions, I would sure appreciate hearing them.
By the way, I was down loading the 35-2 Owner's manual, just a little bit ago, (the prior owner of my boat did not have it). I was glancing thru it, and noticed the answer to your (John) question to Gareth, about the ports. In the manual, there is a section on general maintenance, under this there is several paragraphs on windows (ports). I quote from that the following:
The windows on your new Ericson are constructed in two halves.The exterior half which holds the window pane itself (this part of the manual was surely written by a landlubber), has a lip which overlaps the cut-out in the house side and compresses a strip of closed-cell tape, providing the primary seal between frame and house ---------. After a period of sailing, it is possible that some minor leaks may develop at the windows as they are designed to "float" on the foam tape strip. ---------- check the foam tape to be sure that it is soft and pliable and that it overlaps at the bottom join. If cracking or ageing is detected, replace it with a similar type of closed-cell foam tape which is available at many marine hardware stores."
If you have not done so already, you may want to download, at least that part of the manual.
Fair winds!
NaplesbobT
gareth harris
Sustaining Member
It is possible to remove the mahogony covers and then replace them after you have finished working with the chainplates, my advice is to leave them off so the wood can breathe - I think shiny chainplates add something to the interior, and these boats have a long history of destroyed bulkheads behind the covers.
Unless you are in southern California or another desert region, I think it is worth taking the time to rebed things properly. Doing the epoxy filler takes practice, especially mixing it to the right consistency so it does not flow away before it sets, and the whole task is a real pain. But it will protect the deck. I had to replace about 7 ft of my deck due to a leaking chainplate, as well as both the main bulkheads. And if a boat yard tell you just to seal it with 5200, never let them touch your boat.
Yes, I am the gasket supplier, and hated by quite a few people right now who have been waiting for months for me to get a chance to ship it to them (if any of you are reading, I am still living in barracks, trying to complete some training). The seal between the frame and the boat is just closed cell foam tape, as per my owner's manual, nothing special is required. If you want the glass to frame gasket, I will add you to my list, which I will get done eventually.
Gareth
Freyja E35 #241 1972
Unless you are in southern California or another desert region, I think it is worth taking the time to rebed things properly. Doing the epoxy filler takes practice, especially mixing it to the right consistency so it does not flow away before it sets, and the whole task is a real pain. But it will protect the deck. I had to replace about 7 ft of my deck due to a leaking chainplate, as well as both the main bulkheads. And if a boat yard tell you just to seal it with 5200, never let them touch your boat.
Yes, I am the gasket supplier, and hated by quite a few people right now who have been waiting for months for me to get a chance to ship it to them (if any of you are reading, I am still living in barracks, trying to complete some training). The seal between the frame and the boat is just closed cell foam tape, as per my owner's manual, nothing special is required. If you want the glass to frame gasket, I will add you to my list, which I will get done eventually.
Gareth
Freyja E35 #241 1972
John Bouchard
Member II
NaplesBob:
You know, I've printed that manual... I just never thought to look there for the answer. Thanks! Now I just have to look around for some acceptable material to use!
Gareth:
It is the closed cell tape (portlight frame to exterior cabin surface interface) that I need, and it looks like I should be able to find something appropriate locally.
For the moment I don't think I need the "filler" gasket. I did replace the glazing in one of my lights last year, and the filler was in decent shape, so we re-used it. Thanks for the offer, and if I find I do need some, I'll send you a request!
John B.
You know, I've printed that manual... I just never thought to look there for the answer. Thanks! Now I just have to look around for some acceptable material to use!
Gareth:
It is the closed cell tape (portlight frame to exterior cabin surface interface) that I need, and it looks like I should be able to find something appropriate locally.
For the moment I don't think I need the "filler" gasket. I did replace the glazing in one of my lights last year, and the filler was in decent shape, so we re-used it. Thanks for the offer, and if I find I do need some, I'll send you a request!
John B.
Chris Miller
Sustaining Member
closed cell foam tape=?
Seems to me that in later models or in doing re-bedding work (assuming I'm reading the original statement correctly) that "foam tape" is now generally replaced by 4200? I haven't done the re-bedding on mine yet, but I have done the hatches and will say that 4200 works pretty well. But I will say that just replacing foam tape would be FAR easier...
thoughts?
Chris
Seems to me that in later models or in doing re-bedding work (assuming I'm reading the original statement correctly) that "foam tape" is now generally replaced by 4200? I haven't done the re-bedding on mine yet, but I have done the hatches and will say that 4200 works pretty well. But I will say that just replacing foam tape would be FAR easier...
thoughts?
Chris
Mike.Gritten
Member III
We have used 4200 on our ports (in place of the closed cell foam tape) with great success here in Vancouver.
John Bouchard
Member II
Use of caulk vs. tape
I've never had great luck with caulk on portlight installation, so I thought I might try the tape thing. But, if using caulking, do you use some sort of spacer or washers to keep from squeezing out all the caulk? I've used that method in mounting hardware on the deck/cabin, and would guess it should be used for the portlights also? Advice?
John B.
I've never had great luck with caulk on portlight installation, so I thought I might try the tape thing. But, if using caulking, do you use some sort of spacer or washers to keep from squeezing out all the caulk? I've used that method in mounting hardware on the deck/cabin, and would guess it should be used for the portlights also? Advice?
John B.
Right Bedding Compound
Most people don't have much luck bedding the portlights. They need a special bedding compound. I have seen a lot of messes with 5200, 4200, and Sillycone. Sillycone is not an adhesive, and the others are poly urithanes or polysulfides, neither of which are compatable with Acrylic.
Sikaflex produces the only product that I have actually seen work in this application, sikaflex 295UV and the Primer for Acrylic. Yep gotta use the primer!
Works like gang busters, good adhesive qualities, good seals, lasts a long time and looks bristol if the directions are followed.
Only down side, is that the only place that I can find it in less than 24 tube quantities is Fisheries Supply in Seattle, same with the primer. The primer is a hazzard for shipping in the US, so the shipping can get extreamely expensive for the primer, which you have to have.
Thanks,
Guy
Most people don't have much luck bedding the portlights. They need a special bedding compound. I have seen a lot of messes with 5200, 4200, and Sillycone. Sillycone is not an adhesive, and the others are poly urithanes or polysulfides, neither of which are compatable with Acrylic.
Sikaflex produces the only product that I have actually seen work in this application, sikaflex 295UV and the Primer for Acrylic. Yep gotta use the primer!
Works like gang busters, good adhesive qualities, good seals, lasts a long time and looks bristol if the directions are followed.
Only down side, is that the only place that I can find it in less than 24 tube quantities is Fisheries Supply in Seattle, same with the primer. The primer is a hazzard for shipping in the US, so the shipping can get extreamely expensive for the primer, which you have to have.
Thanks,
Guy
Geoff Johnson
Fellow Ericson Owner
3M has come out with "4000" which is compatible with plastics.
We bedded our new lexan (r) fixed ports with Boatlife "Lifeseal" many years ago and have had no problems at all. It is one of the very few formulated for plastics.
Loren
Loren
NaplesbobT
Junior Member
Membership
Re Chainplate maintenance - The new issue of "Practical Sailor" is out today, (9-22-05) and there is a page in it on chainplate rebeding, that I recommend for reading. Thanks to all for your interest in the subject.
NaplesbobT
Re Chainplate maintenance - The new issue of "Practical Sailor" is out today, (9-22-05) and there is a page in it on chainplate rebeding, that I recommend for reading. Thanks to all for your interest in the subject.
NaplesbobT
John Bouchard
Member II
Older boats with aluminum portlights!
The Sikaflex products are good, and my "boat work advisor" swears by it. But, my portlights are aluminum! So... I'm still thinking of trying the tape thing...
I have the October 1 issue of Practical Sailor, and the article (actually a PS Advisor answer...) mentions the Sikaflex product that Guy mentions above - 295 UV - and indicates it works well.
At least here in the Northeast/New England, I'll have a few months to ponder this application!
John B.
The Sikaflex products are good, and my "boat work advisor" swears by it. But, my portlights are aluminum! So... I'm still thinking of trying the tape thing...
I have the October 1 issue of Practical Sailor, and the article (actually a PS Advisor answer...) mentions the Sikaflex product that Guy mentions above - 295 UV - and indicates it works well.
At least here in the Northeast/New England, I'll have a few months to ponder this application!
John B.
NaplesbobT
Junior Member
Members:
Gareth had recommended in a prior reply to this thread, that I obtain a copy of Don Casey's book, "Hull and Deck Repairs", which I did. The book came in today (9-23-05). I know we all love our Ericsons, but from my own experience, and from having read those of other owners, a decided weakness of the manufacture of this boat line (35s and others) was the installation of anything on deck and the makeup of the interior deck core. Once the deck surface was broken, a need for a reocurring maintenance program regarding beddings and reviews was created. Stancions, cleats,winches, chainplates, windlesses, ground-rigging hardware, all created situations where if not periodically reviewed and rebedded, would litterally lead to the deck core turning to mush. This may just be a "mark of the beast" and common to the fiberglass sailboat, that has a multi-material deck core. However, in retrospect, Ericson could probably have done more to help their customers and creating goodwill, had they recognized this early on, and promoted the spreading of good information to combat these type of problems as they became endemic. That said, I was impressed with the Don Casey book, and would recommend that if you own an Ericson, get a copy. It is up to date, and on point for the above.
NaplesbobT
Gareth had recommended in a prior reply to this thread, that I obtain a copy of Don Casey's book, "Hull and Deck Repairs", which I did. The book came in today (9-23-05). I know we all love our Ericsons, but from my own experience, and from having read those of other owners, a decided weakness of the manufacture of this boat line (35s and others) was the installation of anything on deck and the makeup of the interior deck core. Once the deck surface was broken, a need for a reocurring maintenance program regarding beddings and reviews was created. Stancions, cleats,winches, chainplates, windlesses, ground-rigging hardware, all created situations where if not periodically reviewed and rebedded, would litterally lead to the deck core turning to mush. This may just be a "mark of the beast" and common to the fiberglass sailboat, that has a multi-material deck core. However, in retrospect, Ericson could probably have done more to help their customers and creating goodwill, had they recognized this early on, and promoted the spreading of good information to combat these type of problems as they became endemic. That said, I was impressed with the Don Casey book, and would recommend that if you own an Ericson, get a copy. It is up to date, and on point for the above.
NaplesbobT
John Bouchard
Member II
Deck Cores
I'm certainly no expert, but I believe that just about every boat from more than several years ago used cross cut balsa as the "stiffener" between deck fiberglass layers. Balsa is very lightweight, and (if kept dry!) would last just about forever.
Newer boats use a type of foam, which one would use in repairing a soft deck.
Ericson, or any other manufacturer, probably should have warned against this issue, but since all the manufacturers used the method/material, I guess there was a competitive disadvantage in pointing out potential problems.
My last boat was a Pearson Renegade, 1967 27 ft., The chainplates were imbedded/bolted into the hull fiberglass, and so the chainplate/leak/bulkhead deteriorization was not an issue in that boat. However, soft decks from leaking fitting installations was!
In any guidance to considering a fiberglass boat purchase, there never fails to be a caution to check for "soft" deck areas.
In reviewing the write up of the E32 from Practical Sailor, one will note that the only serious warning in that material concerns the water-logged-damaged chainplate/bulkhead item. I have that write-up, and could share via a private email.
Our season here in New England will be grinding to a halt soon. It was 32 degrees this morning here, and also, supposedly, on Nantucket! Low 70's during the day though, and we will get a few more days in....
I'm certainly no expert, but I believe that just about every boat from more than several years ago used cross cut balsa as the "stiffener" between deck fiberglass layers. Balsa is very lightweight, and (if kept dry!) would last just about forever.
Newer boats use a type of foam, which one would use in repairing a soft deck.
Ericson, or any other manufacturer, probably should have warned against this issue, but since all the manufacturers used the method/material, I guess there was a competitive disadvantage in pointing out potential problems.
My last boat was a Pearson Renegade, 1967 27 ft., The chainplates were imbedded/bolted into the hull fiberglass, and so the chainplate/leak/bulkhead deteriorization was not an issue in that boat. However, soft decks from leaking fitting installations was!
In any guidance to considering a fiberglass boat purchase, there never fails to be a caution to check for "soft" deck areas.
In reviewing the write up of the E32 from Practical Sailor, one will note that the only serious warning in that material concerns the water-logged-damaged chainplate/bulkhead item. I have that write-up, and could share via a private email.
Our season here in New England will be grinding to a halt soon. It was 32 degrees this morning here, and also, supposedly, on Nantucket! Low 70's during the day though, and we will get a few more days in....