Changing packing in E27

[Jarod]

Hi There,

It seems my packing has met the end of its usefullness as no matter how much I mess around with the adjustment it still leaks a few drips per minute while sitting at the dock. If under power it drips quite a bit more. It seems that there is no way to change the packing easily as the packing gland nut will not back off enough to insert the new packing. On a boat with the Atomic engine the coupling to the engine is right behind the packing nut. I was wondering if anyone has found a way to change the packing while in the water. Is it possible to drop the shaft and do it that way? If I do drop the shaft will water rush in at all? I would secure it with a clamp so it could not fall out if that is even possible as I would think it would contact the rudder first. Another concern is the 4 bolts on the rear of the engine where I assume i disconnect look quite corroded up from sea water.....so I am a bit concerned about snapping a bolt, any comments concerns?????

thanks alll

 

[Jarod]

oh also what exactly is the exact drip rate....it drips while not underpower at the dock and i always assumed that was incorrect

 

[CaptnNero]

those annoying drips

oh also what exactly is the exact drip rate....it drips while not underpower at the dock and i always assumed that was incorrect

I've read various things about the proper drip rate. Before I switched to a dripless PSS PYI I think I was setting to 1 drip per 10 seconds. Some say no drips when stopped and one drip per N seconds when turning where N is something like 10-20 seconds. I was never comfortable with the idea of being near the thing to measure drips with it turning, so I just set it when stopped.

If I were you I would quickly pick up Calder's Boat Mechnical and Electrical book. I'm sure he covers this topic well. I have one and it has served me well. It's in the master bath in the reading chamber right now so I don't want to go up there and risk disturbing Galley_Slave. She has to go to a customer site tomorrow and Kokomo can certainly use the boat bucks.

Pulling the shaft to replace the packing won't work. It needs to be "packed" in with the shaft in place.

When you do replace the packing some of the teflon stuff runs cool enough that you don't even let it drip.

I can't help you with the coupler configuration. It just sounds like the engine will have to be moved to gain access to the coupler so you can back off that packing gland nut. I don't know about your boat so someone else will need to jump in here.

If you really need to pull the coupling off then that can be tricky. As for the rusty coupling bolts, the challenge goes beyond that since the coupler itself needs to be pulled. You need enough accees to the front end of the coupler to put a special puller on it. If you search the forum you will find some interesting comments from Guy Stevens I believe on amateur attempts to pull couplers. I succeeded as an amateur when I put in the PYI but mine was not a tough case.

Some boats have the prop shaft and rudder aligned so that if the rudder is hard over one way, you can slip the propless shaft past it. Of course that assumes that you have a prop puller. You seemed to be asking about water rushing in with the shaft out. Yes, water will rush in so you'd need a means to plug is immediately.

 

[Sean Engle]

Are you sure there is no clearance on the gland at all?

Repacking while you're in the water is not that tough, and can be accomplished using two large box wrenches (I rented mine - $10 for the day). Once done, I was left wondering what all the hub-bub was about...

You only need enough space to clear the aft nut and pull out the old packing...

//sse

 

[Jarod]

Hi Sean,

Thanks for the response, i cannot say that I am sure there isnt clearnance because I havent actually tried. It appears that there will not be enough room to back the nut off. It would be major design flaw in the e27 if this was the case and I would think that it would be noted somewhere on the site, as everything I read indicates repacking should be an easy job to accomplish even while in the water. I have an e27 1974 with the atomic 4...is there nobody else out there who has encountered this problem?..is there enough room to back off the packing gland nut??? surely someone has done this on the same model/year that I have. Please take a look at an excerpt from another site member.

Join Date: May 2004
Posts: 11

Thanks everyone for the suggestions. The problem is not in tightening the packing nuts. I have the wrenches that do a great job. I am able to tighten but the leak resumes as soon as I have run the engine for a few minutes(spraying salt water all over the place). The PO had the packing replaced in 98 and it seems to have reached the end of its useful life. I am considering going with the PSS dripless unit shown in Jeff's picture. In the E-27 with an A4 there is very limited space to back off the packing nut to try and replace the packing in place (maybe1/2 inch before the nut hits the shaft log assembly) I just called PSS and they have a unit for $220. which sounds good to me. I want to go sailing!!

I FOLLOWED THE ABOVE THREAD TO ITS CONCLUSION AND THERE WAS NO RESOLUTION TO THE ISSUE(THAT WAS POSTED ANYWAY)

 

[Sean Engle]

Hummm. Well, not having had an E27 with an A4 myself, it's difficult for me to really say... I'm hoping some other E27 owners will chime in here with their input.

Can you post an image of the stuffing box and shaft, Jarod?

//sse

 

[Glyn Judson]

Not enogh shaft length.

Jarod, Sean and all, This is not to suggest that your A-4 transmission was fitted too close to the shaft log from the factory resulting in too little shaft length to back the cup off for access to the flax but that was the case with my boat (are you reading this David Auld?). When the factory original Yanmar 2QM15 was replaced with a Yanmar 3GMF, the added length of the combined engine and transmission made it impossible to gain access to the flax as you indicate being the problem in your E27. The final fix was to haul the boat and have the yard pull the shaft so I could shorten the shaft log by 1 1/2". I did this by unclamping the hose from it which allowed me just enough room to get a hack saw blade in there to lop it off. Mine is made of thick-walled fiberglass and it was relatively easy to cut using a fresh blade. As I recall I wrapped the blade with a rag because there was not enough room for the saw frame in that limited space. The result is that I can now run the cup up to the aft end of the shaft coupling with plenty of room to get into the cup. Despite recommendations by many in the past to use dental picks, ice picks, etc., I found a pocket slot screwdriver to be the best flax removal tool when pressed into the cup and the old flax, levering it against the prop shaft while turning the cup with my free hand. The worn and severely compacted flax eventually worms its way out like the peel off an apple. Use the new Teflon impregnated synthetic flax of course along with the Drip-Less Moldable Packing Kit as seen on page 258 of the 2006 West Marine Catalog. If you don't think you have room for the cup to clear the threads, I suggest to you that you may well not have even a fraction of the room necessary for a PSS Dripless shaft seal. Like I said in previous post, I like the simpler gland packing method with modern Teflon impregnated synthetic flax far more than risking a potential collar or bellows failure in a PSS System. I imagine getting stuck out at a SoCal island with a cracked bellows and no way to fix it on the spot as compared to simply tightening a packing cup with two big ChannelLock pliers , and every time I go for the simpler method. This is in no way to say that there aren't many happy sailors on the water using the PSS System, it's just that I don't think I'd want to go that way myself. By the way, gcarry on board a few toilet bowl wax rings from your local hardware store for emergencies. I've thought many times, though never actually done it, that a glob of that wax temporarily moulded around the shaft would keep the outside water at bay long enough for one to change the flax with the boat in the water. I'd love to hear if anyone has ever successfully used this wax in that manner. Good luck, Glyn

 

[Frank Langer]

Can someone enlighten me...

Can someone enlighten me on what's meant by a collar or bellows failure in the dripless system referred to in the post above? Our boat is still new to us, but does have a dripless system, so I'm a little concerned that I might encounter this emergency at some point. So any explanation of what the components are, how they fail and any early signs or preventive maintenance tips would be much appreciated.
Frank.

 

[CaptnNero]

bellows

Can someone enlighten me on what's meant by a collar or bellows failure in the dripless system referred to in the post above? Our boat is still new to us, but does have a dripless system, so I'm a little concerned that I might encounter this emergency at some point. So any explanation of what the components are, how they fail and any early signs or preventive maintenance tips would be much appreciated.
Frank.

This picture is from the www.pyiinc.com website. The bellows is the flexible tube in the middle with the ring folds. When it is installed, the bellows is compressed about 3/4" to provide sealing tension between the disc the bellows is around and and the disc that is around the shaft. If the disc slips on the shaft, the bellows will lose tension and the seal will fail. There are double O-rings between the disc around the shaft and the shaft which would both have to fail to leak. The clamps around the bellows around the disc it surrounds could fail, or the clamps around the bellows around the prop shaft tube could fail. Finally the bellows itself could fail.

Since the whole assembly is normally dry externally, by frequent inspection you should have ample warning with small leaks before something gets serious. It's hard to imagine the clamps failing since it's normally dry, but if there is another water source that could lead to a problem. If a piece of dirt gets between the two sealing discs it can leak but probably not much. When that happens you press on the bellows to let some water clean the sealing discs. Before launch you do need to press on the bellows to burp the air out. I suppose that if the rubber-ish bellows was overheated somehow for long periods or exposed to a nasty solvent it could fail.

From installation I remember something about needing a good shaft alignment with respect to the inside of the bellows so the prop shaft will not chafe the bellows.

 

[Emerald]

Hi Glyn,


I am "back". My recollection of my E-27 was that there was plenty of room between the flange on the transmission of the A4 and the stuffing box to replace the packing. I, like you, am a big fan of the teflon based dripless materials that use the conventional bronze stuffing box and are drip free. I've done it on two boats now, and highly recommend it. Of note, Defender (www.defender.com) still has in stock a Buck Algonquin product that is about half the price of what is normally available (I am talking $35-40 versus $65 or so). Here's a link since it's hard to find on their site, and this is the 3/4 size, which is most common for the E-27. The way this works, you can use it on smaller sizes as well.

http://www.defender.com/product2.jsp?path=-1|619045|619415|636771&id=140696


Frank,

on the PSS bellows system, you have a flexible rubber section (bellows) between the shaft log and a packing assembly at the other end for the water seal. It is a failure of this rubber part (probably cracking due to age) that is being talked about. There is a recommended service life for the bellows, but I don't want to throw out the number in my head, as I am not sure it is accurate - this is important enough to call the manufacturer if you have one and don't know the age and need help deciding what to do.


-David
Independence 31
Emerald

 

[jeff_mc]

I had a similar clearance problem after my repower. The coupler was easy to remove with a rented pulley puller from auto zone. Pulled the shaft out and used a toilet wax ring and plastic bags for the hole. The zinc on the shaft is forward of the strut, keeps it from falling into the abyss. I shortened the stern tube nearly 1 inch and reinforced it with west sys., it had worn thin due to some years of mis alignment. Reverse the process. I now have 3/4" of exposed shaft to replace the packing. The water coming in is not a problem as long as your pumps are working. A rule 1000 can handle the flow rate, for the time you need to push the shaft back through. Obviously a two man job, when it comes time to pull the plug. I have also used the wax rings and plastic bags. When I replaced two frozen seacocks. Use an angle grinder and dremmel to remove, cut them on two sides and split in half. This ensures that you don’t compromise the thruhull. Most anything can be done in the water. Just think through the process, don’t panic when the water comes, keep plenty of plastic bags, wax and rags onboard. Only pull it to paint it.

 

[Jeff Asbury]

Sorry, No A-4 here but I do have a E-27 with the little Yanmar 1GM10. Not a fun job. I have done it once and then it kept dripping. Had my mechanic tighten it up because he had the right tools. Been snugly stuffed for years now. Thinking of re packing just for maintenance. I now have a new exhaust box that sits on a little plywood bridge right over the packing, so it's even more involved to do the job now. As I recall, it's barely enough room or get it open for me as well.

 

[Sean Engle]

Hummmm. I respectfully withdraw my first comment...

//sse

 

[Annapolis E-27]

While I don't have an A4 in my E-27, I will echo David's (Emerald) support for using the Buck Algonquin teflon stuffing product. David and I re-packed the box on "Evening Tide" with a YSB-8 last season and it has remained dripless (as advertised) and cool to the touch.

 

[Tom Prince]

packing

I have an E27 with an A4 and went thru a cluster of hoops to get the packing situatiion resolved. You are correct about not being able to back the nut off far enough to remove and replace the packing. I hauled my boat in Feb. of this year to do the bottom and to fix the packing gland. I ended up replacing the shaft the prop strut and the prop. I also purchased a bellows type dripless unit like Neal showed above. It will not fit(!!), there is not enough distance even with the bellows compressed. I am really glad I had the boat out of the water as it allowed me to really examine all the drive line components. The were all electrolyzed beyond repair. The boat sat for a number of years in the Ala Wai Yacht Harbor which is a large free for all of poorly grounded boats. The PO was dissinterested.
If you want to talk just PM me.
Very best with your project. Boats were designed to be sailed not repaired.
Tom

 

[Dave Hussey]

E27 packing gland

Here is a picture I shot before repacking the stuffing box on my '76 E27. As you can see, there is not a lot of room to work in, and very little space to remove or replace the flax packing after the cup is backed off all the way...barely enough room to insert the 3/16th waxed flax I used. I had to do it twice :headb: after finding out that spiraling the packing around the shaft is a no-no (it jams the shaft when the shaft is turning in one direction, then loosens up in the other direction...that was in the last 15 minutes as the travel lift was crawling towards my boat, about to put her back in the water. (It has to be in rings)
I feel confident now that the job could be done in the water, but of course it would be wet, and harrowing, knowing all the while there are no breaks until the job is done. ( unless you have a good bilge pump )

 

[Sean Engle]

I feel confident now that the job could be done in the water, but of course it would be wet, and harrowing, knowing all the while there are no breaks until the job is done. ( unless you have a good bilge pump )

All other things being equal (assumes you don't have any major problems), the amount of water that leaks in while you're re-stuffing is not that bad (at least on my boat it was not that bad) - the pump can stay ahead of it easily. You just set everything out ahead of time, etc...

You can do this in the water for sure... The amount of space, well...that's another issue...

//sse