correcting unbalanced helm on an E-25

[raslocum]

I am a new owner of a 1972 25 cb model. I love the boat, but am just really getting to know it. I previously sailed extensively on my sisters E-23, which is why when this boat came up for sale, i jumped on it. I'm running a 100, 130, and 150 Genoa on various winds. On all the sails, I notice alot of resistance on the tiller causing the boat to point up in to the wind. It is noticeable, but less of a problem on the smaller jib, and it is almost overpowering on the 150 in anything but incredibly light air. I suppose I could begin tweaking the forestay and backstay tension, but I'd love any advice from a voice of experience on the matter.

 

[Seth]

Fix it

The first thing is to check is the rudder-this could be from damage to the rudder or one side assymetric to the other. If the rudder is fine, check for unusual or excessive weight in the bow..do your best to keep the ends light when redistributing gear, and don't carry more gear than you need to (dock boxes can do this for you) these boats are not storage lockers!!!

Then check the rake. I expect you will find a lot of aft rake. If so, ease the backstay/tighten headstay so that the mast is dead plumb-ZERO rake. Of course re-tune the shrouds on each side so the mast is centered and staying in column when sailing. There are a lot of details on rig tuning posted here on the site. Snug thigs back up and go sailing..

Things should be much improved, but the next suspect could be an overly full mainsail. This boat does not need a very deep main. If it is fairly fresh cloth but full, you can have it recut by a sailmaker. If it is old and blown out, it is not worth spending money to recut-think about a new one.

Finally there is sail trim. Any chance you are overtrimming the mainsail and/or under trimming the headsail? Either of these will cause weather helm. Go sailing with the right headsail for the conditions (roughly 0-12 true with the 150, 10-17 true with the 130, and above 18 go to the 100) , get the headsail trimmed for the wind angle (top telltale breaks a second or so before the lower telltales as you slowly luff up into the wind). With that set, ease the mainsheet until the sail is luffing. you should now have neutral or slight lee helm-depending on the wind speed. Trim in the main, JUST to the point 90% of the luff is gone. If you have leech telltales, they should all be streaming back (although with a properly balanced boat you may have the top leech telltales stalled behind the leech about 1/2 the time (upwind only). Otherwise get them all flying.

Let us know how it comes out. If you still have the problem, take 2 Dark and Stormy's and call me in morning!

S

 

[treilley]

I agree with Seth except for the order. I would try the sail trim first. It is the easiest one to do without getting out the sliderule

Oh yeah and welcom raslocum. Great name! Could this new boat be named Spray?

 

[jkenan]

the next suspect could be an overly full mainsail. This boat does not need a very deep main. If it is fairly fresh cloth but full, you can have it recut by a sailmaker.S

Seth-

Would you also say the E29 does not need a very deep main? I have a 2 year old Doyle fully battened main (came with the boat when I bought her), and know nothing about how sails are cut. But I have noticed a fairly deep pocket right off the boom, and I have a severe weather helm when sailing close in anything over 15K unless I double-reef. I've thought replacing my rudder with a Foss rudder based on the Cal 40 design would help (Foss recommends this for the E29), but hadn't considered recutting the main until now. Would you consider one, the other, or both viable directions to pursue? Some facts on the rudder are that it has some surface cracks on the port side and has already been repaired once by the PO, and backing up is tenuous. Indigo Prop on an A4.

Thanks in advance.

 

[Seth]

John,
It does sound like the main may be too full, and this will certainly make for more weather helm once boat becomes a little pressed (around 12-15 knots TWS upwind).

This might be a silly question, but have you maxed out the outhaul? The purpose of the outhaul is to remove draft/depth from the section of the sail just above the boom (or add some by easing it from max tight for some conditions). The point is that you should be able to get the foot very flat when the outhaul is pulled tight-assuming the sail is built correctly (and mistakes do occur).

First, let's see where the clew of the sail should be on the boom with the outhaul maxed out. If your boom has a mark, tape or painted line near the end of the boom, measure from the back side of the mast right by the gooseneck, holding the tape near the back end of the boom. The forward side of the tape or line should equal the E dimension (from the back side of the mast). If there is no mark, add one by placing a mark or piece of colored tape right at the point equal to your E measurement, which is the length of the mainsail foot. If you have a standard rig 29, this should be 12 feet. If you have the Tall Rig, there were 3 booms. 9.2,9.9 and 10 feet-Most were 10.

Now that you have located the spot on the boom where the sail should be with the outhaul maxed out, go ahead and max it out. Your description sounds like the only part of the sail that is unusually deep in just above the boom-and there are basically 2 causes for this. 1). The outhaul is not tight enough, so you are not getting the foot tight enough to flatten the sail as a result (you will notice the clew is somewhere fwd of the mark), or 2). The sail is too long, so that when you max the outhaul you have not pulled the foot tight enough to remove the draft.

To really answer you on the sail shape I would need a photo posted, but let's make sure you are getting the foot tight enough and that the sail fits the boat (you may also want to check your sailmaker's records and ask them what E dimension they used to build the sail..Once this is established we can go from there. Of course, if this is as annoying as you imply, check the Rake, try removing an inch or so of aft Rake and see if this helps. Also follow the suggestions about weight I gave to the 25 CB guy.

Having said all that-an overly full main will make matters worse. I would not say the 29 needs quite as flat a main as the 25 CB-but by the time you have over about 12-15 knots TWS, you should have the sail as flat as it can be-it will be faster with less heel.

The Foss rudder mod is GREAT, but this is not what is causing the problem. Let's get this resolved, and then add the rudder to make the boat point higher, go faster with more control, etc...

Fair enough?
BTW-no argument with treilly on the "order of things"-Thanks "t"!

Seth

 

[jkenan]

Seth-

Thanks for the thorough explanation, it was very clear. I just replaced my standing rigging, and suspect I put too much rake in the mast, so the first thing I'll do is straighten the mast a bit and retune.

Where on the gooseneck should I measure from? There is no mark on the end of the boom, so I'll put one, but need to know if I should be measuring from where the gooseneck assembly meets the boom or the mast, or somewhere in-between. After that, I'll measure the foot and check the outhaul and see if that helps at all.

Should have more info and photos by mid-October, which is when I'll be down at the boat next.

I'm definitely going to do the Foss rudder mod, but now have the right set of expectations in mind. I was thinking the old rudder could be stowed in the aft locker as an emergency backup for any offshore work.

Thanks again, and I'll let you know how things change with the adjustments.

 

[Seth]

No worries

Hi John,

I thought I mentioned measuring from the back side of the mast-just about gooseneck height.

The "definition" of the E measurement (and let's use 12' for discussion's sake)is the distance from the aft face of the mast to the forward edge of a taped or painted band on the boom-which in your case would be 12'.......

Now, although E and foot length are loosly equated, a sailmaker designs the sail using a foot length equaling the E dimension for the boat, then subtracts what is called "tack setback". This is the distance from the aft face of the mast to the gooseneck or tack pin. He then takes about 1% for stretch. I think the tack setback is about an inch on your boat IIRC, and 1% of 12' is 1.44 inches, so your foot, when pulled hand tight (reasonably good tension) on the floor would be roughly 11' 9 1/2 " as measured from the bearing point on the tack ring to the bearing point on the clew ring. So much for the lesson in sailmaking.

Once you have the mark located on the boom at 12' aft of the aft face of the mast, when you pull the outhaul tight, and the clew ring is right at the mark, the foot should be very tight. Since you are not really doing serious racing, and there if is a bit more room to pull the foot tighter beyond the mark, that is fine-you got a bit of free sail area. The sail would only be considered too long if when you pull the outhaul as far as it will go (and you should have a purchase or winch for adequate tension) the foot does not get flat. If you don't have any purchase at all on the outhaul, you will only be able to get it tight BEFORE loading the sail-either before sheeting it in, or even before hoisting it.

Hope this helps-let us know!

Cheers,

S

 

[jkenan]

I'll let you know in a couple of weeks. Thanks very much for the info!

Cheers.

John

 

[raslocum]

the Spray

Oh yeah and welcom raslocum. Great name! Could this new boat be named Spray?

Thats funny, - the thought has crossed my mind. I'm told Captain Joshua, was related, but I need to do some research on that one. While I'm at it, maybe I should single hand sail around the world a couple times before i go rename my boat. For that matter, maybe I should get a bigger boat.............

Thanks for all the suggestions. I'll be trying them out this weekend.

 

[markl]

helm balance

hi. I noticed that no one suggested moving your centerboard. If you move it back and forth some you can alter your helm balance.. Mark in Cleveland

 

[Seth]

board travel

It IS true that moving the board up and down WILL affect the CG and hence helm-However, for normal sailing with the board down, you should be able to have a balanced helm, and if you raise the board when sailing upwind to reduce helm, your leeway will be esxcessive.

Trimming the helm with the board is best done on angles of a beam reach and deeper-when leeway is less of an issue.
Cheers,S