E-29: stern was partially sunk into water

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glen_dc

Member II
I bought my 77 e-29 a month ago -- it was a real bargain. I was afraid to lose the deal, did not have time for professional surveyor to inspect and the PO was pushing me. I run the boat history report that came out perfectly clean. The boat was / is in the good shape except the dead Atomic 4. The electrical part was fine (I am a certified home automation specialist).

The mechanic who came to inspect the engine said that he is 100% sure that the engine was partially in water. Rust on spark plugs, two cups of water came out from the starter, the engine is frozen and unrepairable. I scrutinized every inch. In the engine partition there is trace of mud on the walls - 3-4" on the back wall and 2-3" on the side walls, also the bottom of engine cover has trace (paint deteriorated, became pale). I check bilge every other day and it looks normal. I have a manual pump and very small amount of water comes out. I guess no leaks. I checked wood panels under settees and the galley - no trace of water, the paint is smooth, no borders. There was some water in the blower hose that connects to the hole in the transom next to the bilge hole.

From what I saw I can conclude that the stern was in the water. I do not know if the blower hole/bilge holes in transom were below the water level or not.

My questions:
1. What should I do / be aware of / double check / carefully watch after?
2. How could that happen? As I said the boat has manual bilge pump and stayed in the water over the winter. The boat is on Chesapeake bay in a pretty safe location up on one of rivers. Do not remember any hurricanes in the last winter / fall.
3. Does e-29 have any foam built-in (like Macgregor)?
 
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NateHanson

Sustaining Member
I think it must have happened out of the water. A boat with a keel will flood on a pretty even trim. But on the hard, just a couple inches off level will cause water to collect in one end or the other in a flat-bilged boat.
 
tenders

tenders

Innocent Bystander
There was heavy weather in the Northeast last fall.

It could be the case that the boat lost a stern through-hull, or took in a lot of rainwater somewhere aft (perhaps from an open or broken hatch), and grounded at the mooring, making it unable to flood level. Which is fine -- it didn't sink, either.

Is the water in the boat/starter salty or fresh? Is there a white residue on the bulkheads with a salty taste? If you're seeing bona fide mud it sounds like a through-hull failed. It could also have broken free from its mooring and grounded somewhere.

What's a "boat history report"?

It will be interesting to see in a year if you still think you got a bargain. To me "free" might be a fair price, but not a bargain, for an E-29 needing a new engine and flood damage repair. I'm also very curious what tactics the PO used to pressure you. Used sailboats in the Chesapeake aren't exactly scarce.
 
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glen_dc

Member II
The link to get boat history report: http://www.boathistoryreport.com/

Similar to the carfax service. Once I bought my e-29 I found USCG paperwork from owners before my immediate PO, compared to the report and it was quite accurate.

I did not taste water that came out of the starter but I doubt that the PO took the boat offshore. Water in Chesapeake is dirty and brackish.

So far I did not see any flood damage besides the engine. Even the water pump works fine and it's installed on the same level as Atomic-4. And that was my question - what could be possibly damaged?

Agree, there are a lot of used boats available in the area but to buy '77 e-29 for the price of '73 Catalina 22 looks like good deal for me. The mechanic bought for me a US Yacht with good working Atomic-4 for $2K that he is going to pull out, put on my e-29 and then I will donate the US Yacht or sell on ebay. Bargain my e-29 or not I will find out later when I try to sell it.

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I guess you are right about through-hull failure. e-29 draws 4.2 and depth meter shows 6.1 in my slip. The boat sank 2 feet and stayed that way for a while. My e-29 has a toilet without a holding tank and in/out pipes with through-hull holes below the water level. I remember the PO told me to be careful with the toilet otherwise some drunk guest can sink the boat. Also he repeated several times to check toilet valves when leaving the boat.

Thanks
 
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gareth harris

Sustaining Member
Sorry to read of your trouble, it sounds like the previous owner had low standards of honesty; and if you are on a budget, it is easy to get lured into an illusion of a good deal. But the E29 is a good boat, so with some effort you will have yourself some great sailing.

It sounds like you have limited experience of boats, so I will pitch this at a basic level, forgive me if I am below your level.

The first thing I would do is to make sure the boat has basic integrity - i.e. not at risk of sinking now. There will be a number of holes cut in the hull for water entry/exit through hose, known as Through Hulls. Check every compartment inside the boat below the waterline for them, most likely there will be something in the region of half a dozen (previous owners may have cut more than Ericson cut originally). On every one there will be a seacock or valve, make sure they are in good condition, not leaking, can be opened and closed, and that the hose connected to them is in good condition. If you are unsure, find someone who can help, as they are crucial.

Also check the propeller drive shaft where it enters the boat, and the rudder shaft. I am not sure if the keel is a possible point for water entry on the E29, somebody else may be able to help you there.

Then check for places rain water can enter. Are the cockpit drains clogged? Are there any hidden or badly repaired holes in the deck? On a neglected boat there will most likely be several places where rain water trickles in, which should be sealed up in the long term, but for now just look for places where large amounts can enter.

Fibreglass does not generally sustain any damage from water; the plywood inside the boat is fairly resilient but can be damaged if under water for long enough, so check for signs of rot in the area that was submerged. Other materials will show signs of mold or mildew if damaged. Electrical systems are the worst to deal with, but it sounds like you have a good handle on that.

Maybe your boat was grounded in the river at an angle. Or, I was told that last September the fringe of a hurricane moved up the Chesapeake (I was concerned for my car parked in Virginia Beach at the time), so it could be fresh water damage from that; or sometimes wacky things happen, I have heard of a boat sunk by a veangeful lover putting a hose inside and leaving it turned on. The damage can be repaired, but it may be a lot of work.

Good luck, Gareth
Freyja E35 #241 1972
 
tenders

tenders

Innocent Bystander
I think you have your answer there with the warnings about the head valves. Is it "Occam's Razor" which says that the simplest explanation fitting all the circumstances is the most likely?

As for the apparent pitch of the boat while there was water in it, it's quite possible that since you're at a slip, as water came into the boat, the mooring lines on the bow became taut first, held the bow up, and let the water drain back to the stern, where the lines might have been slacker.

I wondered about the taste and the residue because it's also possible that an improperly secured boat left for a long time can allow a lot of rainwater in. For example -- the deck drains can get plugged with leaves, filling up the cockpit and draining rainwater over the companionway into the cabin. The deck of the boat can funnel a shocking amount of water this way back to the cockpit.

You should not be consorting with the kinds of lovers who would put running hoses into your boat and stomp off. Not for one minute should you. But if you must, get a mooring, not a slip, and run a vengefulloverhistoryreport.com report first.
 
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NateHanson

Sustaining Member
tenders said:
As for the apparent pitch of the boat while there was water in it, it's quite possible that since you're at a slip, as water came into the boat, the mooring lines on the bow became taut first, held the bow up, and let the water drain back to the stern, where the lines might have been slacker.
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Bingo! This sounds right to me.

tenders said:
You should not be consorting with the kinds of lovers who would put running hoses into your boat and stomp off. Not for one minute should you. But if you must, get a mooring, not a slip, and run a vengefulloverhistoryreport.com report first.
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Regarding boat values/bargains/comparatives - It's hard to say that a xxxxxx boat for the price of a xxxxxx boat is a good buy/bad/buy/etc because with boats (much more so than houses or cars, I think) conditions vary hugely. And value is enormously dependent on condition. Even a 1970 Rhodes 19 can easily be worth more than a 1975 30' cruiser if the cruiser is in deplorable shape. The cost of rehabing these boats can be so high that it actually doesn't take a whole lot of neglect to destroy their value.

I don't mean to discourage you from rehabing a boat - I myself am most of the way through a boat rehab (that cost somewhere between plenty and too much), and it's fun, and sometimes a good way to get into a boat on a budget. But you have to keep your eyes open. Use the opportunity to learn as much as you can about fixing boats, and it'll increase the value of the project to you.
 
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windjunkee

Member III
Glen,

Just to let you know, we bought Voice of Reason with the Atomic 4 in pieces and the PO telling us we would likely have to replace it. The head was off and rusty. The cylinders were partially filled with saltwater and the cylinder walls were rusty. We were debating whether to buy a shortblock and build a new A-4 from the bottom up or convert to diesel. Low and behold, we got in touch with Moyer marine and he walked us through the rebuild process with our original engine. First time we put it back together, it fired up. So don't be so hasty to dismiss the possibility of rebuilding your old A-4.

Jim McCone
Voice of Reason E-32-2 Hull #134
Redondo Beach, CA
 
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glen_dc

Member II
A-4

Jim

My mechanic works very closely with Don Moyer for many years. And actually I found my mechanic on the Moyer website. After first inspection my mechanic called Mr. Moyer to discuss options and he told us to pull the A-4 out and take it to PA where Moyer Marina has facilities. 2hr trip to PA plus disassembling fee, plus parts and service fee plus one more trip to bring the A-4 back. My mechanic thinks that the engine is not reparable and I will end up with buying a new engine from Moyer Marina.
 
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NateHanson

Sustaining Member
Do you have to pay storage for the boat that you're canibalizing? Keep in mind that it could cost you something to get rid of it to a salvage yard, if it's in poor condition with no engine.

Not sure if that purchase is a done deal, but for $2000, plus engine removal, rebuild, and then the cost of storing and disposing of the hull, you'll have a rebuilt or used engine. The cost of a new or moyer-rebuilt atomic might not be that much more, and could be a lot fewer headaches.
 
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glen_dc

Member II
No, I do not have to pay for storage and I'll put on that boat the outboard from my e-29. I spoke with the next door marina people they will swap A-4s between two boats with a crane. I will pay $2000 to the boat owner but I am going to sell that boat after the swap and hope to get some money the true cost of A-4 will be around $1500 vs. 4500 from Moyer.
 
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gareth harris

Sustaining Member
glen_dc said:
No, I do not have to pay for storage and I'll put on that boat the outboard from my e-29. I spoke with the next door marina people they will swap A-4s between two boats with a crane. I will pay $2000 to the boat owner but I am going to sell that boat after the swap and hope to get some money the true cost of A-4 will be around $1500 vs. 4500 from Moyer.
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Gutsy move.
 
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