E-32-2 Electrical Overhaul

[Amontyg]

I recently installed a new depth sounder on my 76 32-2, and had to get behind the fuse panel for the first time in a year or so. It is a complete rats nest and quite honestly scares the hell out of me.

How difficult is it to do a re-wire of the DC circuitry with a new breaker panel? It seems fairly straight forward with the majority of the time being taken in running the wire. Any tips or suggestions?

 

[Loren Beach]

I added the boat model to the title to make searching a little bit easier.
While the circuit layout is similar for most boats in your size range, there may be location and access challenges to yours based on location of the panel and how much space you have behind it.
Post up a picture of the face, and also with the panel open to view the internal wires. I believe that quite a few owners, me included, have added neg. buss bars and terminal strips, and then led wires to each breaker. That sure helped - mostly and sort of - the factory wire confusion in our boat.

 

[Tin Kicker]

I recently installed a new depth sounder on my 76 32-2, and had to get behind the fuse panel for the first time in a year or so. It is a complete rats nest and quite honestly scares the hell out of me.

How difficult is it to do a re-wire of the DC circuitry with a new breaker panel? It seems fairly straight forward with the majority of the time being taken in running the wire. Any tips or suggestions?

Not technically hard but it's a bit of a tar baby. One thing will lead to another to another, etc. Do NOT do anything with AC power connected lest the Evil God Sparky or Lucas, the Lord of Darkness WILL find you!

Start with writing down what you want in the end and then work toward that one circuit at a time. As Loren, I'm adding connection points with grounds and terminal strips which will make re-wiring and maintenance easier.

You'll find wiring that has no resemblance of the OEM wiring diagram in an old boat because of previous owners and mechanics. Plus that a number of the OEM installations do not meet current code. Because of these, you really do need to check that the wire and breaker for each wire you touch are appropriate.

For most of these projects, resist the temptation to pull massive quantities of wire and try to do it all at once. There are some choke points so you'll need to attach new wire to the old wire to pull the new one through. An example in the 32-3 is about 6" below the AC panel where the TAFG liner and hull are extremely close. Tie wires into a nice neat bundle and they'll never get through that choke, so you need to play with it to see how big the bundles should be. Test for function with each circuit or item that you re-wire, rather than when everything seems to be back in.

In the end it is worth it because things work better. Just take it slow.

 

[kapnkd]

I recently installed a new depth sounder on my 76 32-2, and had to get behind the fuse panel for the first time in a year or so. It is a complete rats nest and quite honestly scares the hell out of me.

How difficult is it to do a re-wire of the DC circuitry with a new breaker panel? It seems fairly straight forward with the majority of the time being taken in running the wire. Any tips or suggestions?

We went a different route (which I’ve posted before). We bought a Blue Seas panel with the AC & DC combined. Because of the size it was relocated to the area on the port side by the aft quarter berth in the old small locker location after modifications. It has a drop down panel for ease of access for service or adding additional electronics. Also our batteries are located just underneath the aft quarter berth making connections easier as well. (We also added a third battery.)

A bit more effort but to have a super efficient panel with room for additions made it worth while. The old Formica walled area was covered with Teakwood and a 110v 4 outlet plug was installed.

 

[Christian Williams]

E32-3 - Part 1--A Novice's Guide to Panel Reorganization

A yacht distribution panel that is a bad hair day from the 1980s is easy to ignore if the boat electronics sort of work. When I changed stereos last year I just crimped and crammed the new wires in. Then a few months later came a new GPS. Soon I...

ericsonyachts.org

E32-3 - Universal M25 Engine Wiring Upgrade Part 1--Cockpit Gauges

Why bother? Well, twice last year my M25 diesel wouldn't start up again after being turned off. I could jump the solenoid with a screwdriver--if there was someone in the cockpit to hold down the paired glow plug and starter buttons. When it...

ericsonyachts.org

 

[Amontyg]

Thanks for the feedback and the ideas - the finished examples look beautiful. I've been doing a bunch of research and getting a better understanding of what I will need to do.

From what I understand, if I update to a breaker panel, the panel is there to protect the circuit from overheating, but not necessarily to protect the device. Devices in the circuit need their own fused protection at the correct, lower amperage. Is it wise to add a fuse panel in addition to the breaker panel and get rid of all of the in-line fuses devices seem to come with? This would make diagnosing a blown fuse much easier than tracking it down elsewhere.

 

[kapnkd]

Thanks for the feedback and the ideas - the finished examples look beautiful. I've been doing a bunch of research and getting a better understanding of what I will need to do.

From what I understand, if I update to a breaker panel, the panel is there to protect the circuit from overheating, but not necessarily to protect the device. Devices in the circuit need their own fused protection at the correct, lower amperage. Is it wise to add a fuse panel in addition to the breaker panel and get rid of all of the in-line fuses devices seem to come with? This would make diagnosing a blown fuse much easier than tracking it down elsewhere.

Yes it is wise to do and what we (my son the engineer) did.

In the photo of the opened access, notice on the back wall, which is an added stand off piece of white Starboard, there are two mounted vertical black boxes with a smaller yellow colored area within. Also just to the left is another box slightly hidden by red bundled wiring coming from the panel backside.

Those are added fuse boxes with corresponding lower amp fuses specific to needed amperage limits for each instrument/device as required.

Also, do be sure to use tinned stranded (Marine Grade) wiring for your project(s). A little more costly but keeps your boat to expected standards and does last longer.

If you have more specific or technical questions, I can relay them on to my son.

Besides being an engineer, before and while in college he worked at West Marine. Even as a very early aged teen, he used to read and remember their catalog like a Southern Preacher does a Bible.

You can email me at kkdiehl0427@sbcglobal.net

 

[Tom Metzger]

Is it wise to add a fuse panel in addition to the breaker panel and get rid of all of the in-line fuses devices seem to come with? This would make diagnosing a blown fuse much easier than tracking it down elsewhere.

NO! That would eliminate the circuit breaker ever operating. The fuse would blow before the circuit breaker for a high current fault. Better to put in the correctly sized breaker. The breaker doesn't have to be sized for the wire, that is the maximum size allowable.

That said, if you have branch circuits coming off of the breaker (one breaker feeds multiple devices) then you can put all of the fuses for the branch circuits in one place.

 

[kapnkd]

NO! That would eliminate the circuit breaker ever operating. The fuse would blow before the circuit breaker for a high current fault. Better to put in the correctly sized breaker. The breaker doesn't have to be sized for the wire, that is the maximum size allowable.

That said, if you have branch circuits coming off of the breaker (one breaker feeds multiple devices) then you can put all of the fuses for the branch circuits in one place.

We’re basically set up, with that larger panel, specifically for the reason/luxury of one breaker for one item. Some instruments use only milliamperes so was the reason for the smaller amp fuses (like an in-line factory instrument fuse. ...We wanted all of them in one spot for ease of access and knowing where to look.)

On the panel itself are main DC & AC breakers which should pop should any serious overloads occur as well. Considering the flow of electricity from source to actual device, to me, it’s more of an in-line gating of the current flow to its intended need. Certainly if something has shorted out between the fuse and breaker, the breaker should still function as intended - to my somewhat limited reasoning of electrical behavior.

 

[Amontyg]

Yes, it makes sense to me that if an appropriately sized breaker can be used, the fuse can be omitted safely. I am planning on combining some items on one circuit, such as autohelm, sounder, vhf radio and Speedometer. In that case I will need individual fuses, while the breaker will protect the circuit as a whole.

Speaking of combining items in one circuit, Can I get some feedback on what combinations are typical? For instance, in addition to the combo above, I was thinking of combining the propane sensor/controller with the cabin power. The controller itself has an on/off switch so I should be able to turn it off even though the lights are on.

Also, considering I have a Universal 25 engine, is there a reason to keep the bilge blower? It seems like this piece of equipment could just be eliminated entirely.

 

[Tom Metzger]

The way to look at it is if the propane sensor/controller goes south would I be happy without cabin lights? If you are on the boat at night it is probably a bad choice. The instruments are probably a good choice.

 

[Tin Kicker]

Thanks for the feedback and the ideas - the finished examples look beautiful. I've been doing a bunch of research and getting a better understanding of what I will need to do.

From what I understand, if I update to a breaker panel, the panel is there to protect the circuit from overheating, but not necessarily to protect the device. Devices in the circuit need their own fused protection at the correct, lower amperage. Is it wise to add a fuse panel in addition to the breaker panel and get rid of all of the in-line fuses devices seem to come with? This would make diagnosing a blown fuse much easier than tracking it down elsewhere.

I am a systems engineer and now that you got both a yes and no. . .

They are actually both right, but from different standpoints.

First off, you are correct in that the protection needs to be sized to protect the wire, not the device on the end. The gauge of wire is picked for the device on the end, so it's a set of dominoes. How much current does the device need, de-rate that to be conservative for the wire, then protect the wire. You do this for every circuit, so Tom is correct when it comes to circuits dedicated to a device. The protection needs to be near the source of power to protect as much of the wire as possible.

Sometimes, we have multiple things on a circuit or need to run a trunk somewhere and then break out for the local loads (devices on the end of the wire). In those cases, we may have a breaker near the source with a wire sized for the total load of what will be on the circuit, then separate fuses or breakers for individual items. So that is the approach used by the son of kapnkid and it too can be done correctly.

Fortunately, there are a LOT of resources in how to size circuits and protection. For example:

Part 1: Choosing the Correct Wire Size for a DC Circuit - Blue Sea Systems

Engineering high quality marine electrical components for safety, reliability and performance

www.bluesea.com

Note the link to their circuit wizard at the bottom of the page.

pm me your phone if you want to talk.

Bob

 

[Hanktoo]

Here's the result of two coats of Cetol. Pretty happy with how it turned out. Now if I'm ever allowed to the boat yard we'll get them installed.

 

[Tin Kicker]

Yes, it makes sense to me that if an appropriately sized breaker can be used, the fuse can be omitted safely. I am planning on combining some items on one circuit, such as autohelm, sounder, vhf radio and Speedometer. In that case I will need individual fuses, while the breaker will protect the circuit as a whole.

Speaking of combining items in one circuit, Can I get some feedback on what combinations are typical? For instance, in addition to the combo above, I was thinking of combining the propane sensor/controller with the cabin power. The controller itself has an on/off switch so I should be able to turn it off even though the lights are on.

Also, considering I have a Universal 25 engine, is there a reason to keep the bilge blower? It seems like this piece of equipment could just be eliminated entirely.

Your breakers already give good topics to group functions under. If you are unable to get to the panel because you are steering and your friend below has a reason to quickly kill power to something, you don't want him/her to start guessing at what breakers to flip. You want things to be clearly labeled.

You should already have separate existing breakers for INSTRUMENTS and RADIO. I would not put the VHF on the same as the instruments for two reasons. First, it already has a breaker. Second, you REALLY want the radio to work more than the autopilot or speedometer. By reducing the amount of wire and potential devices the radio is connected to, you reduce the odds of a failure.

Bilge blowers are required.

 

[Christian Williams]

Also, considering I have a Universal 25 engine, is there a reason to keep the bilge blower? It seems like this piece of equipment could just be eliminated entirely.

Even with a diesel, the bilge blower fan can remove smells and provide a sense of security. Why not keep it if does no harm and maybe some good?

Fair enough. But here's my take:

I yanked the blower out immediately. My current boat came with no fewer than three in-line fans in twenty feet of vent hose that obscured the engine bay with drooping hose and scads of attendant pump wiring.

...

I now have a passive vent system using the two cowl vents on the transom and an additional cowl on the coaming.



I have motored 24 hours in tropical conditions with no hint the engine bay was unusually hot. And if it were, simply opening the lazarette lid would relieve more air in one minute than vent hoses in an hour.

Also: We are told that diesels a require vast intake of air to operate, and that a sealed engine compartment is a grave detriment. I doubt that applies to us. I've yet to see a sailboat like ours without free circulation, given the usual open under-cockpit layout.

But, the air filter is worth looking at. Westerbeke/Universal equipped 80s engines with clumsy tin megaphones on the air intake. These are now considered menaces, since when old they can introduce metal bits into the engine. A K&N oil filter is the usual replacement, and allows plenty of air.

So: a diesel blower doesn't hurt. Question is, does it help enough to justify being there.

 

[Tin Kicker]

Bilge blower for diesel:

https://law.resource.org/pub/us/cfr/ibr/001/abyc.H-32.1987.pdf

For gas:

https://law.resource.org/pub/us/cfr/ibr/001/abyc.H-02.1989.pdf

 

[Loren Beach]

Thanks 'Tin'.

As all of our diesel mechanics have advocated over the decades, we do run the exhaust blower whenever the engine is operating. This pulls some heat out of the upper part of the confined engine compartment and reduces stress on the alternator. Also, I am told that the engine designers all specify that about 2 or 3% of the total waste heat be conducted away by direct radiation. (Another reason to keep the engine wiped down so that dust does not accumulate.)
The part of the regs (and thanks for posting it) that seems applicable is:
"Additional Uses of Ventilation - Power or natural ventilation is not required on a diesel boat, but may be used to control compartment temperature. power ventilation may also be used in the machinery space for odor control and personnel comfort while servicing equipment."

Note B: our former M25XP Universal had some exhaust blow-by and while most was captured by re-routing the crankcase vent hose to the air cleaner, some was still present and was withdrawn by the suction of the exhaust hose intake.
Important Note: if your Universal diesel engine still has the shredded aluminum ball inside the air cleaner, remove it. Soon. Yesterday. Yeah really.

 

[kapnkd]

Your breakers already give good topics to group functions under. If you are unable to get to the panel because you are steering and your friend below has a reason to quickly kill power to something, you don't want him/her to start guessing at what breakers to flip. You want things to be clearly labeled.

You should already have separate existing breakers for INSTRUMENTS and RADIO. I would not put the VHF on the same as the instruments for two reasons. First, it already has a breaker. Second, you REALLY want the radio to work more than the autopilot or speedometer. By reducing the amount of wire and potential devices the radio is connected to, you reduce the odds of a failure.

Bilge blowers are required.

Yep...FOR SURE! Each of our individual panel breakers (DC & AC) have labels that were provided by Blue Seas with the panel and they are lighted at night.

Even our VHF and AM/FM radios have individual breakers along with separate breakers for each of the two electric bilge pumps, the auto helm, blower fan, running, steaming and anchor light. I’ve installed indirect floor/cabin sole lighting which is also a separate breaker from regular 12v cabin lighting. The panel is big enough we still have two unused spaces left.

The chosen wire gauge sizes, of course, all correspond to the specific recommendations of the factory item specs.

 

[Amontyg]

Just getting back to the boat today to take some photos of what I’m dealing with - if only for entertainment value.

Keeping the bilge blower as a safety makes sense to me for the moment - although I don’t think I’ve ever actually used it. If it ever failed I don’t know that I could justify the cost of replacement. But then again, if I never use it it will never fail, right?

I also pulled the air filter from my engine and attached a photo of what I’m dealing with - I do like the idea of replacing it with a K&M. I’ll get one on order.

 

[Tin Kicker]

My bilge blower is on literally 24/7 to keep air moving through the boat. Not the OEM bilge blower but the .15A 70mm computer fan running in series with it. The current draw is so little that it can be overcast for a week + and a battery still doesn't run down.

Two shower drains:

Clamped in series with the OEM blower: