E35-3 Aft-led lines and Traveler Setup

[MarineCityBrian]

Aft Led Lines Follow-Up (Progress - Part 2 of 4)

Once I had marked-off all of the hardware, I drilled the holes from the topside either using the hardware itself as a guide or the supplied guides that came with some of the hardware. Then, from beneath (after removing the headliner), I drilled up through the deck with a 1-1/8" hole saw, STOPPING AT THE UPPER LAYER OF GLASS (after my 1st mistake, I took care to clearly mark my hole-saw...more on that later...):
This is the one for the port-side halyard winch which I relocated from the mast:


Next, use a screwdriver to pop-out the deck coring (in the case of my boat it's marine plywood)


Next, use a chisel to get down to the parent glass layer


Nice clean holes! (these are actually the ones for the deck organizer whereas the above are for the port winch)


After doing this, I mixed up ~3 pumps of Epoxy Resin and mixed-in 406 filler until I got to a "Peanut Butter" consistency (West Systems defines this as a mix that is thick enough so that when a stirrer is pulled from it the peaks are thick enough to stand-up rather than fall down) such that it could be applied to the underside of the deck. The objective here is to fill these oversized holes with a plug of solid strengthened epoxy to keep the core nice and dry as well as having a material with a higher compressive strength than the plywood it's replacing. I started using the stir-stick as a putty knife and wetting the core as much as possible, then mashing it up into the cavity until it pushed-out through the small hole in the gel-coated top deck layer. I then leveled it flat to the inside core with the stir-stick, if not slightly proud, and finally placed a piece of release fabric over the bottom-side and rolled it several times with a finned roller to remove as many bubbles as possible:

I used a little masking tape just to hold the release fabric up. The release fabric probably isn't mandatory, but it does make a nice smooth surface once released and purportedly eliminates the amine blush that plagues certain epoxies (which would only really be a problem if we were to apply a 2nd layer of epoxy).

 

[MarineCityBrian]

Aft Led Lines Follow-Up (Progress - Part 3 of 4)

Now, once cured, sand the underside and sand or cut smooth the topside (if you didn't quite smooth-out the epoxy that poked through the small hole in the deck - I had pretty good luck doing this carefully with a sharp chisel). The cured 406 thickened epoxy is pretty tough stuff, which is why it's best to make it pretty flat from the onset (again the release fabric helps a bit with this), but I found an orbital sander with 60-grit leveled-out any high spots in fairly short order.

Next, re-drill your holes through the solid plug of cured epoxy you've created, effectively sealing the deck coring from any moisture intrusion. I again used either the hardware or the templates provided to do this. It doesn't even matter if you're off a little bit, since you've made a much larger plug than hardware hole; so long as you keep your hole within the bounds of the plug somewhere your core will be sealed, which in the case of the 1-1/8" hole saw I used you could be off by over 1/4".

Finally, counter-sink all of the top holes and apply butyl tape as per the instructions here: http://www.sailnet.com/forums/gear-maintenance/63554-bedding-deck-hardware-butyl-tape.html

Better link:
http://www.pbase.com/mainecruising/rebedding_hardware
This way you don't need to go to the beginning of ~400 posts to find the original....

For what it's worth, I just purchased the common butyl tape they carried at my local RV Center (I live in SE Michigan and hit General RV on North River Rd, but there are plenty to choose from). Compared to a $25 tube of 3M 4200 or 5200, I spent ~$10 on an entire roll of butyl tape and barely made a dent in the roll.

Once you tighten the hardware the butyl tape will come creeping out from all sides. Just trim with a knife (X-Acto or Razor Blade, or I used one of those break-it-off utility knives) and it makes a very nice, neat seal. We've had some torrential rain here and all of the butyl tape sealed hardware hasn't leaked a drop.

Here's an example of the butyl leaking out after tightening (and that's after a trimming):


When bolting your hardware, be sure to have suitable backing plates. I used the largest fender washer I could find for most areas, but for the rope clutches the spacing was so tight I had to use some smaller fender washers:
Here's the underside of the port rope clutch bank, with the smaller fender washers:


And here's the port winch, with the larger washers:


One thing to note here is that the protruding threads should eventually be covered with something to avoid head injury whilst below - I was going to use vinyl caps from McMaster Carr, or conceivably use a 1/4" shorter bolt. I used ny-lock nuts for all joints as well.

And for the 2 pieces of bad news, I did encounter some moist core on the starboard side. I think it's either from the main sheet winch mounting or the cabin top cover mounting. Either way, that will need to be replaced (I hope to do it this fall, which can be the topic of another post). Here's the dark moist core on that side after having drilled the oversized holes from beneath (and then subsequently filling with some 5200 to temporarily seal them off):


The other piece of bad news I also alluded to above - when oversizing the original main-sheet cheek-block holes to be filled with epoxy and sealed, I thought I hadn't quite hit the upper deck layer, but in fact I had, and did this:


So now with the hole filled with thickened epoxy I have a tiny skylight in that area of the deck. When the deck is repainted with new non-skid you won't even notice it. I actually still haven't been able to peel all of the boat-life caulk off of there, and that area of the deck actually WAS dry, which is a testament to that caulk. Still, it was used around the cabin top slide cover, and that shows signs of leakage, so it's not perfect. Hopefully this butyl tape will keep things nice and dry.

 

[MarineCityBrian]

Aft Led Lines Follow-Up (Progress - Part 4 of 4)

Here are a few scattered pics of the (partially) finished product:


I'll try to post a schematic of the deck layout soon, to try and get the full picture. Also included with this upgrade are Garhauer EZ-Glide genoa car adjusters, but that will be a future upgrade and post. Garhauer had to do some re-work on the cars to clear the non-skid which is raised-up a bit from the deck where the T-Track is bolted.

Above you can see the main sheet going through the deck organizer but due to the wet core I just led it back to the original mainsheet winch, which will eventually be the halyard/vang/cunningham winch. The deck was wet in both the areas where I plan to mount the new mainsheet winch and the rope clutch for Starboard Spin Halyard, Vang & Cunningham.

Hopefully this will be helpful to someone!

Happy sailing!

 

[MarineCityBrian]

Aft-Led Line Diagram

Here's the diagram I arrived upon after months of debate on the deck layout:


I have yet to fully realize this, and am for example still using the massaged traveler cam cleats as mentioned in a previous post rather than the Spinlock PXR cam cleats (jury still out on those) but this is the general "dream deck" I've been envisioning.

 

[MarineCityBrian]

Continuous loop line on traveler

Very useful stuff. Let us know how the single-piece line works. I have my doubts, since I find a straight pull, braced in the cockpit, easiest in popping out and setting in the line.

Now that I've got a season of the continuous loop traveler line under my belt, I can say that it worked out just fine. I never found it cumbersome, and always knew where the other end of the traveler line was. I never had any issues with tangling, but I also wasn't flying a spinnaker, doing multiple sail hoists (other than main), etc, which could find that area more cluttered. So the plan for now is to keep it until such a time or circumstance arises that makes it a nuisance. Thus far it's been quite handy. One thing I did was have enough line such that it lays neatly down on the forward seat of the cockpit with a bit of extra slack. What I've noticed I can easily do is while close-hauled and heeling I'm able to both uncleat the leeward side while on the windward side (if tightening) and if slacking I'm able to take up on the leeward side while still on the windward side. I still may utilize the more aft mounted cam cleats (rather than mounted right to the block itself) but again for now the system is working fairly well. Also, a friend who came out for a sail and came from a Passport 37 adjusted the traveler in some reasonably heavy air and was amazed at the ease with which the traveler functioned. 4:1 with ball-bearing sheaves seems just about right for the 35.
Thanks to all and for this forum for the wonderful advice and tips! Happy sailing!

 

[Christian Williams]

Good update.

I eventually put new Ronstan control ends on the original E38 Ronstan traveler track, which I re-anodized for appearance. Full report :

http://www.ericsonyachts.org/infoexchange/entry.php?583-Ericson-38-Ronstan-Traveler-Upgrade

I use split control lines, each now 18' long with 4:1 purchase. Reducing to 5/16th helps the line run through the blocks. The tails store in the line bags and are not a bother.

 

[bgary]

...I drilled up through the deck with a 1-1/8" hole saw, STOPPING AT THE UPPER LAYER OF GLASS ...
View attachment 22635

I'm curious about cutting plugs out of the plywood. It seems to me that the plywood (if solid and dry) is, itself, a good backing material and that cutting plugs out of it has the potential to put most of the load on the single top layer of glass rather than distributed through the whole composite structure (top skin + plywood + bottom skin)

I'm thinking of reconfiguring some deck hardware, and my (1980s-era) thinking is that the plywood was put in those areas by Ericson specifically to create a strong and non-compressible foundation for mounting the deck hardware. "Back in the day", we use to just mount the hardware in those areas by drilling straight through the plywood layer, putting sealant in and around the holes and good backing plates on the underside.

Should I think about this differently?

Bruce

 

[MarineCityBrian]

I'm curious about cutting plugs out of the plywood. It seems to me that the plywood (if solid and dry) is, itself, a good backing material and that cutting plugs out of it has the potential to put most of the load on the single top layer of glass rather than distributed through the whole composite structure (top skin + plywood + bottom skin)

I'm thinking of reconfiguring some deck hardware, and my (1980s-era) thinking is that the plywood was put in those areas by Ericson specifically to create a strong and non-compressible foundation for mounting the deck hardware. "Back in the day", we use to just mount the hardware in those areas by drilling straight through the plywood layer, putting sealant in and around the holes and good backing plates on the underside.

Should I think about this differently?

Bruce

Plywood is not laid on the end-grain (the direction in which wood has the greatest compressive strength), so to that end it is not as strong as the epoxy, or concievably balsa core which both absorbs the epoxy and IS laid on the end grain). Furthermore, the epoxy is both an adhesive (bonding to the adjacent plywood) and is waterproof, so the adjacent plywood should not be damaged should the deck hardware seal ever become compromised. The 406 filler which was added adds strength to the epoxy (and has the additional benefit of enabling the epoxy to be think enough to fill a vertically drilled hole in a cabin top from the underside, countering gravity). The epoxy also adheres to the adjacent glass on the underside of the cabin top, but perhaps not with quite the strength of a layer of glass roving (that said plenty leaks around the areas around the hole(s), effectively creating another layer, and had the added benefit of providing a surface to sand flat prior to installing your washers - the internal surface of my cabin top of anything but flat...). Lastly, the backing plate fender washers I used were larger than the holes drilled, so they should help to grab onto the inter layer of parent glass roving on the inside of the cabin top.
That said, if you wanted to keep the inside later of fiberglass intact, there is a method of using a small router-bit tool on a Dremel (or like rotary tool) where the hole is merely opened up in the plywood layer, but keeps the top AND bottom layer of glass intact. The epoxy is then placed into a syringe fairly thin, and objected into this void. A piece of tape is placed over the bottom of the hole on the inside of the cabin to keep the this epoxy from leaking out of the hole. The only issues I see are that you're not adding as much filler (which strengthens the epoxy), you may trap air within (allowing the potential for water intrusion) and the column is much smaller in diameter (only about 1/8" radially larger than the hole, due to the router but size) limiting the overall strength of the epoxy column merely due to column diameter.
All of that said, I saw a link from the same sage person who posted the directions for dealing deck hardware with butyl tape who preferred this latter method and even showed sections cut of the deck showing the fairly complete fill of the epoxy and the still existing inner later of glass. I certainly think both would work just fine, and it's your choice as to which one to use. A close friend had great luck with the version I used and even mentioned the purported shortcomings but commented that the large fender washers should help take the load outboard to the inner later of parent glass. It was also a bit easier (though did involve removing my headliner) and didn't involve a slew of syringes.
I'll post that link to the alternate method once I find it...

 

[Christian Williams]

by drilling straight through the plywood layer, putting sealant in and around the holes and good backing plates on the underside.

That's how I do it. The '80s Ericsons used aluminum backing plates to spread the load.

But of course wet plywood or core would mean taking the long road.

 

[MarineCityBrian]

Links for bedding with butyl and filling holes

Bedding deck hardware with butyl tape (the original link above was to a post, but this is directly to the web site the post references):
http://www.pbase.com/mainecruising/rebedding_hardware

Filling deck hardware holes with epoxy:
http://www.pbase.com/mainecruising/sealing_the_deck

Multiple ways to get to the same strong and sealed deck, in my estimation. Just pick the way that works best for you. I had a hankering to remove my headliner to solve myriad other issues, so I chose the method easiest with the headliner removed (which to me was the hole saw method). Alternatively, one could use a smaller hole saw (to ensure more fender washer/backing plate overlap with the original deck plywood), and finally one could also toss a single layer of glass beneath the plugged holes for what I'd consider the ultimate in strength.

 

[Tom Metzger]

[/QUOTE]Plywood is not laid on the end-grain (the direction in which wood has the greatest compressive strength), so to that end it is not as strong as the epoxy, or concievably balsa core which both absorbs the epoxy and IS laid on the end grain). [/QUOTE]

I question this quote. The plywood replaces the balsa core to keep the deck from collapsing as screws are tightened or hardware stresses the deck. From the E-34 brochure:



The FRP/balsa/ FRP sandwich creates a structure similar to a wide-flange beam or an I-beam. It is stiff because of the separation of the structural flanges, not because of the filler. The balsa is used primarily because it is light.

 

[MarineCityBrian]

Likely for shear, rather than compression

[/QUOTE]Plywood is not laid on the end-grain (the direction in which wood has the greatest compressive strength), so to that end it is not as strong as the epoxy, or concievably balsa core which both absorbs the epoxy and IS laid on the end grain).

I question this quote. The plywood replaces the balsa core to keep the deck from collapsing as screws are tightened or hardware stresses the deck. From the E-34 brochure:

View attachment 23902

The FRP/balsa/ FRP sandwich creates a structure similar to a wide-flange beam or an I-beam. It is stiff because of the separation of the structural flanges, not because of the filler. The balsa is used primarily because it is light.[/QUOTE]

My hunch is that Ericson did this due to the superior shear strength properties of marine ply, rather than compressive strength properties. When a piece of deck hardware is physically trying to rip itself from the deck, the hardware area of the deck is placed in a much more localized load (the area of a backing plate, for example). In SHEAR (along the grain in the case of end-grain balsa, and across multiple layers in the case of marine ply), plywood is stronger than balsa, which is why I am guessing Ericson would advertise the above picture. In the case of my boat, the entire deck core is plywood (I'm guessing it became cheaper than balsa at some point). [EDIT: After re-coring a large portion of my deck around the mast-pocket area, I learned that Ericson DID INDEED place marine ply in areas where hardware might be mounted, and end-grain balsa elsewhere. So the prior sentence is incorrect. To my slight credit I had only explored areas of the deck where hardware may be bolted, and each time found marine ply, hence my statement....] In terms of plywood being used to keep the deck collapsing from the screws being tightened, plywood laid on its side is actually not as strong as end-grain balsa in the compression direction (as can be seen from the table below). Additionally, it does nothing to ensure that the rot-prone plywood is completely sealed from the elements should the polyurethane sealant eventually leak (as the factory-installed sealant did in the area of the main sheet winch and starboard companionway hatch on my vessel).

In a typical scenario, the deck is asked to endure the load of a human walking on it. In this instance the outer layer of glass is placed in compression, and the inner layer in tension. The sandwich material in between is merely asked to hold the two layers together (the i-beam scenario you pointed out previously). Again, when deck hardware is involved, depending on the function of the hardware, the forces change. A deck organizer or cheek block or winch will place the direction of forces perpendicular to the person walking on the deck. Same story (in general) for a cleat (depending on how it's being pulled). A jib/genoa track will actually almost reverse the direction (as if someone is pushing on the deck from within the cabin, albeit at an angle), as will the padeye for your spinnaker pole downhaul. To that end, I feel that the coring method I utilized is excellent due to the bonding properties of epoxy and it's superior material properties in ALL directions (tension, compression and shear) over any wood used to core decks (by almost 10 times). When tightening my hardware, you could reach torque on the fasteners with absolute certainty. The epoxy did not give in any way. Over-torquing more would merely break the bolt, rather than crush the deck coring. Below are compression strength properties I've gathered from various deck coring materials and resins (I used West Systems on mine, but most epoxies are similar):


Modern high-end boat manufacturers make a solid GRP core in hardware mount areas, negating any rot-prone coring materials at all, and taking advantage of the superior material properties of epoxy resin (at the price of higher mass, material cost and labor). This way they have a solid GRP core with no risk of water reaching the wood core, and a material who's compressive properties would result in hardware bolts breaking before the material would yield. Having a deck which is equal or hopefully superior in strength in the deck harware areas, as well as WATERPROOF to the core in the areas of the deck hardware were the 2 key reasons for going with this method. I believe I've satisfied both. Keeping that core dry was definitely a prime objective since I've already seen water intrusion from Ericson's installation of deck hardware....

Hopefully that info is helpful.

 

[MarineCityBrian]

My E35-3 uses large stainless fender washers..

by drilling straight through the plywood layer, putting sealant in and around the holes and good backing plates on the underside.

That's how I do it. The '80s Ericsons used aluminum backing plates to spread the load.

But of course wet plywood or core would mean taking the long road.

Just as a point of reference, my 1983 Ericson uses large (and fairly thick) Fender Washers on all deck hardware. I just removed the primary winches and main sheet winch and all utilized stainless fender washers. I WISH it had nice aluminum backing plates, but such was not the case for my boat (which from my understanding is 'straight from the factory' - been in the family since new in 1983). I think a congruous backing plate tying all fasteners together would be the superior method without question. That said, 35 years later my primaries have been just fine with the fender washers, and have been out in some fairly decent weather....

Lastly that method (from the factory) for me resulted in some wet core, so I've experience firsthand what can happen when sealant fails. That said keeping after it you may be OK, but I'd prefer to seal that off while 'the patient is open' anyway. Many different methods to get to the same result (deck hardware installed on your boat).

 

[toddster]

Evolution

No piece of hardware on my 71 Ericson was backed up by anything more than a 1/2” washer. :0
I’m gradually fixing that. Turns out that the bolt-spacing on many things precludes using fender washers, so one must leap right to custom backing plates. Which takes a lot of time and effort.

...on the other hand, it has gone nearly 50 years on the 1/2” washers...

 

[MarineCityBrian]

No piece of hardware on my 71 Ericson was backed up by anything more than a 1/2” washer. :0
I’m gradually fixing that. Turns out that the bolt-spacing on many things precludes using fender washers, so one must leap right to custom backing plates. Which takes a lot of time and effort.

...on the other hand, it has gone nearly 50 years on the 1/2” washers...

I hear ya - a half century of sufficient fastening, apparently . On my rope clutches I was unable to do Fender Washers due to the tight bolt spacing, similar to your situation. But I figured with the significant amount of bolts, and low likelihood that all lines would be loaded at once it should be more than fine.

Also, plenty of overlap of the thickened epoxy beneath the inner layer of glass, enhancing the bond surface area and providing a sandable surface to sand flat for better washer bearing area.
And also dangerous pointy things to hit your head on, but I'll trim the bolt lengths soon enough, or put some vinyl caps on them.

 

[Christian Williams]

I think it is possible to overthink this stuff. Fender washers are fine. Backing plates? A scrap of wood is fine.

Brian, I cut the ends of the bolts off with a Sawzall. Be aware that the cut-off piece is hot. Oops. one melted right through my headliner .

 

[MarineCityBrian]

I think it is possible to overthink this stuff. Fender washers are fine. Backing plates? A scrap of wood is fine.

Brian, I cut the ends of the bolts off with a Sawzall. Be aware that the cut-off piece is hot. Oops. one melted right through my headliner .

Agreed, but overthinking helps me sleep at night.

I used a Dremel with a cut-off tool to get the length just right on my rebuilt traveler fixed blocks, but had to go slow to avoid melting the nylon in the ny-loc lock-nuts. Sawzall would make short work of them (and is a great idea - thanks), and my present lack-of-headliner wouldn't suffer any from a hot bolt head falling.

 

[bgary]

Sawzall would make short work of them

Back In The Day (tm), we used a hacksaw blade to cut most of the way through the bolts, close to the nut; vice-grips to break off the crippled piece, and then a small grinding wheel to grind the bolt-end flush with the nut. Not only made a nice pretty installation, but deformed the last threads on the bolt to a degree that made it virtually impossible for the nut to work loose.

Bruce (hoping the statute of limitations is up on how I did some things...)

 

[Christian Williams]

I started with a hacksaw and a nice dull blade. On dear, it was overhead work. Put a cutting wheel on the drill. Slow going and awkward to keep pressure.

The roaring Sawsall--working through the zipper in the headliner--was a bag of jumping kangaroos and I almost cut my nose off a couple of times.

All my posts should have a line under them that says: "He is not telling you the whole story."

 

[bgary]

... roaring Sawsall...was a bag of jumping kangaroos ...

A good friend of mine describes a Sawsall as "an amazing amount of destruction in a hand-held package".

It can also produce great irony. Case in point, I try to find ways to justify "other choices besides me" in how yardwork gets done. One of my approaches is to note that I'll be happy to do whatever is needed in the yard, but I reserve the right to use power-tools, poisons and flames. Cuts down significantly on the requests I get.

But a few years ago, when asked to trim a rose-bush, I agreed... and "trimmed" the thing all the way down to the ground with the Sawsall. Thought that would end that whole line of request once and for all.... until the following spring, when that rose bush produced the most gorgeous roses I'd ever seen. So now... trimming the rose-bushes with my Sawsall has become a recurring request. Apparently rose bushes respond well to be assaulted with blunt and reciprocating blades. Or something.

So it goes.