E38-200 Offer Accepted - Sea Trial, Survey, Closing, and RELOCATION on the horizon

[Loren Beach]

I understand the innate nervousness that we feel when viewing a survey and wondering what parts might motivate us to run away or run towards...
I still recall our nervousness when shopping for our first "big boat" in 1994. (Gulp!)

A surveyor that I have known for many years always tries to make it clear that value of the survey is that it gives the boat itself a "voice" as compared to the seller, (wants to move on) the broker, ($$$), and the (often infatuated) buyer.

Also, the survey will layout several basic categories of actual condition: things immediately needed for safety, overdue maintenance to complete in the next year or two, and longer term upgrades and improvements. It will note where the particular make and model falls on the scale of original design and construction "scantlings"... (This is a part of the discussion that some brokers shy away from, for many reasons).

For the vast majority of us, armed with some knowledge and having the benefit of info from sites like this, is that we become contented owner/sailors anyhow!

 

[JP in Sandusky]

The You tuber Sailing Lady K, had a good series on taking the Erie canal.

I watched a bit of that series. I know it can be done. Honestly, watching the video(s) made me even more nervous about taking a "new to me" boat through the process. Best guess, I would be motoring for 2 weeks, and I'd like to have a little more time with the boat before doing that. I'm also, genuinely, quite fearful of going through the locks with a mast laying across her.

If I had done it before, helping someone else, I'd seriously consider it. The canal and river system looks quite beautiful, but there does not appear to be many places you can leave a boat "part way" for a week and come back later in the month.

Your signature says you are in Oriental, NC. I am envious. If I could, I'd love to relocate to the Morehead City area.

 

[dhill]

Happy day! ? !
Our offer on an E38-200 that I saw posted here (so the seller might still be here) has been accepted. Long post, I apologize.

About Us.
New to sailing. That is correct. New to sailing. ASA 101, 103, 104 this year, out of Blue Water Sailing School in Ft Lauderdale for both me and my wife. Courses were on a Dufour 43, which really got me thinking about skipping the "trailer sailor" phase. We felt fairly comfortable handling the 13.5' wide and 43' long Dufour in the marina and ICW after just a day or so. (And the ICW out of Miami and Ft L is BUSY!) We had an accepted offer on a Tartan 33 earlier this year. That deal fell apart after survey. I liked that boat, but I always "knew" the "walk-through wet head" lay-out would be a problematic for my family. That said, I had read a 32-34' fractional rig was a great "first" cruiser boat, and the boat was already kept at the sailing club we joined.

So why buy a masthead rig, 38' boat this early into things, not local? Well, the market seems right, if you are buying without needing to sell, and I just wasn't finding what I wanted in Ohio.

Ericson, Pearson, and Tartan have always been my shortlist manufacturers. An E-35-3 or 38-200 were my preferred boats. (Spouse, 2 of 4 kids still home, and we need something we can stay on when we go to the lake.) Assume occasional single-handing, often short-handing WITH 2-4 guests aboard, sometimes middle schoolers, sometimes my retired parents, or both.

We will be sailing in Lake Erie, which has a reputation for weather that can come on fast and hard, which is another reason I leaned away from starting out with a 22' boat. (Lake Erie is shallow, long east to west, the same direction the weather travels. Wave timing can be short. Storms can stir things up like a shallow bathtub with half an hour notice.) I went with the "buy the boat you want for the next decade, not the next couple of years" approach, and now I'm a little intimidated about the entire process and the steep early learning curve for owning a 16,000lb boat.

But.

I've have an accepted offer on what I believe is a good 38-200 for a good price.....but dang if it isn't 2 states away. I toyed with the idea of taking her into the famous New York (Erie) canal system. The idea of laying that mast down and then going through 28 locks, some of which drop a couple of stories in height, on a boat I don't know yet.....well, I am not ready for that adventure. Not now. Maybe not ever. I really did try to find what I wanted already on Lake Erie, I really did.....sigh.

So.

Long-time lurker, first time poster. I am absorbing as much information as I can.

What should I look out for in a sea trial and survey for a 38-200? Common issues that are specific to this model? The boat is "always freshwater," being moved to freshwater. She has always been a "short season" boat and will remain so. Engine hours are <1500. Sails and standing rigging might be original, which is actually a bit more common around here than I expected.

Any advice on finding, arranging, preparing for truck transport? (Ideally with cradle, since I hate to leave that behind.) In your opinion, leave her on the hard over winter where she is, and then move in the spring? Move her then place her on the hard closer to home this fall? Pay the yard to prepare for transport, or do it myself? Leave the mast off for the winter and remast in the spring? Options, options.....too many options.

I'm a hands-on guy, but there is 12 hours between me and this boat, which is making this more stressful than I assume is normal. Any help is appreciated. Happy to chat via private message for anyone that prefers.

Congratulations! I bought my Ericson 35-3 in Shelburne, VT and piloted/sailed it to Maine, about an 800 mile journey that took 13 days. The early part of the journey was done with the mast down, required for navigating the Champlain Canal connecting Lake Champlain with the Hudson River. I can't speak for the Eric Canal, but there are generally boatyards that specialize in stepping and unstepping masts before and after canals. They tend to be really efficient because they do it all the time and less expensive (~$300 to unstep/step). Some require the owner to be present during the process, which takes about 90 minutes.

Here is a video for part of the mast stepping process after we cleared the Champlain Canal:

.

I had a lot of experience piloting smaller boats - both sail and power - when I bought my Ericson, so I decided to pilot it so I could get used to the boat. I learned a lot about the boat and she seemed to shrink during the trip. You do have to be comfortable that the boat can make the journey safely - good question to ask the surveyor and anyone else that may be familiar with the boat. When navigating canals, the condition of the engine and running gear is particularly important. I recommend doing a separate, focused engine survey.

In Maine, some boatyards require unstepping and stepping the mast during storage. Others do not. If you want to work on the boat over the winter, you might want to consider moving it now so it is closer. I trucked my boat 50 miles to another boatyard to complete a repair and solicited recommendations from the receiving boatyard on which trucking companies they used. The receiving boatyard had a good reputation and the motivation to start a new relationship on the right foot. I followed the driver the entire way and he was very careful. I also have a video on trucking the boat on my YouTube channel. I used blue painters tape to secure cabinets, doors, drawers, etc., but would probably use green or purple painters tape designed for more sensitive surfaces if I need to move the boat again, particularly if you are not able to remove the tape right away.

Biggest things to check during the survey, in my opinion, are signs of water intrusion (cored deck, deck fittings, portlights, interior damage, mold), critical systems (rig, engine, cooling system, running gear, rudder, seacocks, keel bolts, winches, fittings, electrical with proper fuses, plumbing, sail conditions, tanks, hoses), any foul odors, and really looking at the condition of the "hidden" parts of the boat that are not usually or easily seen (engine room, bilges, compartments all throughout the boat). A good survey should do all that and more. My surveyor spent an entire day going through my boat. All of the issues raised were indeed issues. Be sure to be present during the survey. You will learn a lot about the boat and can ask questions.

As @Christian Williams has stated in the past, you are looking for reasons not to buy the boat and should approach the process with a good deal of skepticism. Think of yourself as the current owner. How would you feel about being able to sell the boat in its current condition when the time comes? If the survey results do not deter you, get price estimates for any major issues that need attention.

Note that replacing/repairing canvas and cushions is more expensive than you think. Also remember that all Ericsons are now at the age (35+ years old) when everything may be reaching end-of-life and might need replacing. Level of care and maintenance, particularly in those "hidden" areas, is critical.

Good luck!
Dave

 

[JP in Sandusky]

@dhill - This is more helpful than you might realize. Survey is this week, which I will definitely be there to witness and ask questions.

Once/if the purchase process is complete, I'll have more questions. I hope everyone can remain patient with me for a few more weeks.

Fingers crossed that all this excitement is not for nothing!

 

[Prairie Schooner]

Congratulations! I bought my Ericson 35-3 in Shelburne, VT and piloted/sailed it to Maine, about an 800 mile journey that took 13 days. The early part of the journey was done with the mast down, required for navigating the Champlain Canal connecting Lake Champlain with the Hudson River. I can't speak for the Eric Canal, but there are generally boatyards that specialize in stepping and unstepping masts before and after canals. They tend to be really efficient because they do it all the time and less expensive (~$300 to unstep/step). Some require the owner to be present during the process, which takes about 90 minutes.

Here is a video for part of the mast stepping process after we cleared the Champlain Canal:

.

I had a lot of experience piloting smaller boats - both sail and power - when I bought my Ericson, so I decided to pilot it so I could get used to the boat. I learned a lot about the boat and she seemed to shrink during the trip. You do have to be comfortable that the boat can make the journey safely - good question to ask the surveyor and anyone else that may be familiar with the boat. When navigating canals, the condition of the engine and running gear is particularly important. I recommend doing a separate, focused engine survey.

In Maine, some boatyards require unstepping and stepping the mast during storage. Others do not. If you want to work on the boat over the winter, you might want to consider moving it now so it is closer. I trucked my boat 50 miles to another boatyard to complete a repair and solicited recommendations from the receiving boatyard on which trucking companies they used. The receiving boatyard had a good reputation and the motivation to start a new relationship on the right foot. I followed the driver the entire way and he was very careful. I also have a video on trucking the boat on my YouTube channel. I used blue painters tape to secure cabinets, doors, drawers, etc., but would probably use green or purple painters tape designed for more sensitive surfaces if I need to move the boat again, particularly if you are not able to remove the tape right away.

Biggest things to check during the survey, in my opinion, are signs of water intrusion (cored deck, deck fittings, portlights, interior damage, mold), critical systems (rig, engine, cooling system, running gear, rudder, seacocks, keel bolts, winches, fittings, electrical with proper fuses, plumbing, sail conditions, tanks, hoses), any foul odors, and really looking at the condition of the "hidden" parts of the boat that are not usually or easily seen (engine room, bilges, compartments all throughout the boat). A good survey should do all that and more. My surveyor spent an entire day going through my boat. All of the issues raised were indeed issues. Be sure to be present during the survey. You will learn a lot about the boat and can ask questions.

As @Christian Williams has stated in the past, you are looking for reasons not to buy the boat and should approach the process with a good deal of skepticism. Think of yourself as the current owner. How would you feel about being able to sell the boat in its current condition when the time comes? If the survey results do not deter you, get price estimates for any major issues that need attention.

Note that replacing/repairing canvas and cushions is more expensive than you think. Also remember that all Ericsons are now at the age (35+ years old) when everything may be reaching end-of-life and might need replacing. Level of care and maintenance, particularly in those "hidden" areas, is critical.

Good luck!
Dave

Great resources Dave!

 

[Saverio]

Hello, congratulations on your boat. The 38 200 is a great sailboat, fast, comfortable, and safe. In Italy, there are many shipyards (Grand Soleil, Rimar, Comet, etc.) that make Ericson, and there are only a few examples of this in the US. Purchased five years ago by a US pilot at a NATO base, it was abandoned. I liked its lines, and once it was fixed up, I appreciated its excellent sailing qualities. It gives me great satisfaction in club regattas. Much larger, more recent boats are left behind. I think I'll keep it until I can sail it myself. Greetings from Italy.

 

[Kenneth K]

If you wind up transporting the boat, I wouldn't go overboard taping off the interior. My boat was moved from Montana to Washington state (8 hour drive). We didn't really tape off anything on the inside.

Obviously, remove or secure all items inside the cabinets. But the sliding drawers all have locks, and the cabinet doors have snap latches. It would take a pretty jarring impact to force them open. If you're worried about a cabinet door swinging open into a sharp object, then tape foam padding over the sharp object. Throw a blanket over the dinette table, and wrap with tape to hold the blanket in place.

I definitely wouldn't tape off any of the (horizontal) white-painted, plywood compartment covers. Ericson used a vinyl veneer on the edges of these covers, and tape is sure to peel the veneer off when removed. Plus, what's the worst that can happen to a white painted piece of plywood that's already seen years of years of wear and tear?

You'll have plenty of things to keep you busy during the move, so I don't see the wisdom in going overboard on the cabinetry, which was built to withstand pitching & rolling seas.

Do check maximum allowable road heights and widths. We removed the bow pulpit because the mover thought it would be a height issue (on a boat with the 6ft. keel).

The mast is a pretty stouts spar, but a furler foil is a fairly delicate, 45 ft long aluminum extrusion when laid on it's side. I'd take a lot of time securing it to the mast so it can't flex. Also make sure that the furler body at the lower end is supported independently, and not just by the foil.

 

[dhill]

@dhill - This is more helpful than you might realize. Survey is this week, which I will definitely be there to witness and ask questions.

Once/if the purchase process is complete, I'll have more questions. I hope everyone can remain patient with me for a few more weeks.

Fingers crossed that all this excitement is not for nothing!

Hi @Jeremy P ,

This is a great community and the patient, supportive folks here helped me navigate the ups and downs of purchasing my boat. I would not worry about whether this excitement is for nothing. If this is not the right boat for you, better to find out now - also a good result! It can be frustrating, but if you end up with the right boat in the end, it is worth it.

Two more things to watch for:

1) Check the dorade vents in front of the mast and the anchor locker. These seem to be weak spots of Ericsons and there can be water intrusion, mold, and rot underneath.

2) Make sure the boat does not have any liens on it. I walked away from my first accepted offer during the search for my boat because of a lien and I'm very glad I did. The lien was 10 years old at the time and could have added a lot of extra expense and headaches.

For state-registered boats, liens are recorded on the boat's certificate of title. If the state does not issue titles, do a Uniform Commercial Code (UCC) search with the Secretary of State or County Clerk's office. The National Association of State Boating Law Administrators (NASBLA) maintains a list of administrators for each state.

For boats documented with the US Coast Guard, liens can be discovered by requesting an Abstract of Title from the National Vessel Document Center under the US Coast Guard. You will need the document number of the boat, which is required to be displayed somewhere in the boat. That is how I uncovered the lien in my case.

Good luck with whatever decision you make!

Dave

 

[JP in Sandusky]

For boats documented with the US Coast Guard, liens can be discovered by requesting an Abstract of Title from the National Vessel Document Center under the US Coast Guard. You will need the document number of the boat, which is required to be displayed somewhere in the boat. That is how I uncovered the lien in my case.

Thanks for this. I suppose I have been assuming the certified broker would have already done this, and I need to re-read the purchase agreement to see if there are any assurances on this issue. It didn't even occur to me that a broker would list a boat that might have a lien on it. Thanks again!

 

[JP in Sandusky]

Do check maximum allowable road heights and widths. We removed the bow pulpit because the mover thought it would be a height issue (on a boat with the 6ft. keel).

The mast is a pretty stouts spar, but a furler foil is a fairly delicate, 45 ft long aluminum extrusion when laid on it's side. I'd take a lot of time securing it to the mast so it can't flex. Also make sure that the furler body at the lower end is supported independently, and not just by the foil.

I was planning to wrap the mast and then wrap the foil to the mast with bubble wrap around the furler. Should work, yes? (again, this is all assuming the survey on Friday provides no "walk away" issues.)

 

[Loren Beach]

I was planning to wrap the mast and then wrap the foil to the mast with bubble wrap around the furler. Should work, yes? (again, this is all assuming the survey on Friday provides no "walk away" issues.)

I do not have a perfect answer, but do have some personal experiences (similar to others here). Back when the yard in SF/Alameda was readying our boat for trucking, they made a last-minute request for me to authorize them to buy a partial role of new carpet from a local vendor.... to cut into strips and wrap our mast, end to end. They said the trucker appreciated it and this would better protect the spar from dings. I agreed, and figured that that extra $100. was OK, given the whole situation and potential risks.

It was quite the "present" to unwrap, after arrival here in Portland! Spar was perfect, tho. Strictly IMHO, this is sort of a "belt and suspenders" solution, but for good reasons.

As for use of duct tape, always first put a layer around, that is "wrong" or sticky side out. Then... put the tight layer on over it. That avoids having the adhesive stuck on your spar or other parts.

More recently, when our boat was moved from the shop back to the water on a truck, that driver (along with the shop owner) was very persnickety about protecting the furler and the mast-head. Truckers in this specialty area have to be really cautious about harm to these expensive boat bits. (!) Also extra padding (anti chafe) over ALL boat edges where the big straps were in contact with the various painted surfaces.
All the best to you!

 

[Captain Pete]

For 25 years I had my Pearson 39 with approx 5' draft and centerboard transported each season to and from my home 50 miles inland with the 57' mast stowed on deck. I never did any special prep inside and never found anything amiss. The key was a good experienced driver to get the boat in and out of my yard on stands and blocks. Also hauling and launching on the launching ramp. And the crane operator to pull and install the mast each season where it was secured on deck. Over the years the only increasing challenge was dealing with crazy drivers coming onto the highway or changing lanes when rolling down the highway at 70MPH with my boat. The drivers seemed to get worse as time passed.

With my E 32-3 the key was also an experienced driver and hydraulic pad operator for the biggest challenge, which was to make sure the small tip of the deep draft keel landed on the metal cross bar of the trailer, otherwise there could be divots in the lead, or worse, from hitting that beam wrong when driving the boat onto the trailer.

 

[JP in Sandusky]

Update: Survey went well. There is about a ten inch area on the port-side of the rudder that has some water penetration, seemingly coming in from the rudder shaft/column/plate. The surveyor and I had about a 10 minute conversation about "keeping an eye on that."

- Decks, including anchor lid, were all in great shape.

- 3 "extra" foresails and 1 extra main in storage. I will need to look at these more closely later. The main on the boat had great stitching, but she did seem to show a little stretch. The jib on the boat was in "good" shape, with 2 patches, each about 12 inches square, in the bottom third.

- 2008 hydraulic autopilot worked quite well, but the surveyor did caution that it will be a major power drain.

- Running rigging all 2 years old, and looked, frankly brand new. The reefing lines were not set-up, so I don't think she's gone much further than the mooring ball and back this year.

- Engine was clean. We pushed her a bit, but she sounded excellent and timing was spot on.

- Systems all worked. Still had winterization from last year in some of the lines.

- Standing rigging is in great shape.

- Cushions are in excellent shape. Interior looked great. I'll take some pictures and share more after we actually complete the purchase.

We are moving forward. I have a couple of weeks to figure out how/where to put her. I need to sort out insurance, documentation transfer, etc.

I might start another thread if I have a specific question.

Thank you all again for your input. I had quite a list of things to check. I'm giving myself to permission to start getting excited now! I wish I could have pulled this off in July rather than September.

 

[southofvictor]

Sounds great Jeremy. We love our ‘89 38-200. Look forward to hearing how things go.

 

[AK67]

Update: Survey went well. There is about a ten inch area on the port-side of the rudder that has some water penetration, seemingly coming in from the rudder shaft/column/plate. The surveyor and I had about a 10 minute conversation about "keeping an eye on that."

- Decks, including anchor lid, were all in great shape.

- 3 "extra" foresails and 1 extra main in storage. I will need to look at these more closely later. The main on the boat had great stitching, but she did seem to show a little stretch. The jib on the boat was in "good" shape, with 2 patches, each about 12 inches square, in the bottom third.

- 2008 hydraulic autopilot worked quite well, but the surveyor did caution that it will be a major power drain.

- Running rigging all 2 years old, and looked, frankly brand new. The reefing lines were not set-up, so I don't think she's gone much further than the mooring ball and back this year.

- Engine was clean. We pushed her a bit, but she sounded excellent and timing was spot on.

- Systems all worked. Still had winterization from last year in some of the lines.

- Standing rigging is in great shape.

- Cushions are in excellent shape. Interior looked great. I'll take some pictures and share more after we actually complete the purchase.

We are moving forward. I have a couple of weeks to figure out how/where to put her. I need to sort out insurance, documentation transfer, etc.

I might start another thread if I have a specific question.

Thank you all again for your input. I had quite a list of things to check. I'm giving myself to permission to start getting excited now! I wish I could have pulled this off in July rather than September.

Sounds like a very encouraging report! As to rudder, water intrusion appears to be somewhat common and may be due to/exacerbated by blistering/separation when she's on the hard, especially if painted a dark color. My manual even states that the rudder should be painted a light color or shielded from direct sun while hauled out to prevent that condition. I ended up having to have ny rudder almost completely rebuilt (fortunately factored into purchase price), so a proactive approach may allow you to open it up and the foam dried out.

 

[JP in Sandusky]

My manual even states that the rudder should be painted a light color

This rudder is painted....black. VC17, which I need to find a source before springtime. If VC17 can be a light gray, I will make the change.

so a proactive approach may allow you to open it up and the foam dried out.

I am not sure I follow. The surveyor mentioned some folks drill a hole in the bottom for the winter, and then epoxy over the hole in the spring. He also mentioned it can be a major problem if you forget to epoxy over the hole before relaunching. I am a bit hesitant to drill into the rudder.

 

[AK67]

This rudder is painted....black. VC17, which I need to find a source before springtime. If VC17 can be a light gray, I will make the change.


I am not sure I follow. The surveyor mentioned some folks drill a hole in the bottom for the winter, and then epoxy over the hole in the spring. He also mentioned it can be a major problem if you forget to epoxy over the hole before relaunching. I am a bit hesitant to drill into the rudder.

Your manual has the same caution. Section 1.11.2. (E).

Drilling and filling is pretty straightforward but isn't likely to do much IMO - it may drain the excess water, but won't dry it out. I started with that approach, but then opened up the skin with a multi tool to check the foam to see if I could just dry it out that way and then glass back over it. It was far wetter than even the surveyor's testing showed and I turned it over the pros, who rebuilt it. I had to address it because it was in the surveyor's report and the insurance required evidence of remediation, but would have done it anyway as the skin was blistering and cracking. I can post pics later.

 

[AK67]

Pics of opened up rudder. The foam was waterlogged. Not sure how bad yours is (you don't really know until you open it up), but at a minimum, you'll probably want to address the ingress points (rudder stock and seams). I also found a considerable amount of water would seep up into the rudder stock tube!

 

[peaman]

The foam was waterlogged.

Do we know what kind of foam that is? Is it porous enough that water will migrate to the bottom while the boat is hauled?

 

[AK67]

Do we know what kind of foam that is? Is it porous enough that water will migrate to the bottom while the boat is hauled?

Closed cell. Pretty dense. Should have retained neutral buoancy, but I'm not so sure. The holes I drilled weren't enough for it to drain and dry out. Even opening it up and putting it in the sun, it wouldn't dry out enough.