E39 rudder knocking noise

[bluemoon]

Hi Fellow Ericsons
I'm getting a knocking and grinding noise , around the rudder stock area on my 71 E39. But, only when in boat is at anchored or moored in rough weather?
I have dived on the rudder and checked for any play where it attaches to the skeg (gugens) . Wondering if it could be in the rudder suffing box ? has anyone out there had a similar problem? Could it be the shaft is ,loose inside the stock?
Any ideas ?

Thanx

Bluemoon

 

[Martin King]

Hi Fellow Ericsons
I'm getting a knocking and grinding noise , around the rudder stock area on my 71 E39. But, only when in boat is at anchored or moored in rough weather?
I have dived on the rudder and checked for any play where it attaches to the skeg (gugens) . Wondering if it could be in the rudder suffing box ? has anyone out there had a similar problem? Could it be the shaft is ,loose inside the stock?
Any ideas ?

Thanx

Bluemoon

This sounds like a classic case of slop in the gudgeon. The fix is to
drop the rudder, and remachine/bush the fitting. Had this problem
on my 31 and it now carries a teflon impregnated bushing. This was
easily done on the 31, however if memory serves, the original 39 rudder gudgeon is held "captive" to the rudder and must be unbolted first to drop
the rudder, and then a part of the rudder sliced off to get the
fitting out. Not an easy or cheap fix....in fact I would seriously consider replacing the rudder altogether with a new one with more blade area. That's
what I ended up doing when I owned a 39.

 

[Seth]

Amen

As Martin says, if it comes to going that far, you would be WELL served by having Foss build up one of the newer rudder designs. The boat will be more responsive, point higher going upwind, and be much more controllable when heavy reaching or running.

The 35's have been able to do this for under 4K total I think-so this is really money well spent.

Good luck,
S

 

[HughHarv]

Er39 Rudder

I'm facing a rudder dilemna myself, how does one know if they want the redesigned rudder, are they any photos or drawings available of the redesigned rudder? Does Foss just extend the existing rudder profile? If so, do they also extend the rudder stock and support web?

 

[Martin King]

I'm facing a rudder dilemna myself, how does one know if they want the redesigned rudder, are they any photos or drawings available of the redesigned rudder? Does Foss just extend the existing rudder profile? If so, do they also extend the rudder stock and support web?

Well, when I did this mod back around '98 I think, Foss still had the original molds for the 39 and it was fairly simple to get a longer shaft and just
extend the mold. That option no longer exists because when they
moved to their present location, they threw out a bunch of older
molds-the 39 among them. So now you are looking at doing either
a new design, or possibly substituting something like a 38 rudder. My
dad has retired from designing so your best bet would be to contact
Finco/Foss and see what they have to say. If you have a fat wallet,
you could hire someone like Alan Andrews to draw a new rudder and
have it fabricated, but that can be very spendy and you have to ask
yourself if it's worth going there.
That's all I got.

Martin

 

[Walt Lawrence]

Ask guy about E39 rudder mod drawings

Hi all

Just thought I would throw in my 2 cents worth....

As the title says, as Guy....

I got a set of drawnings from him that Bruce did and my friends did the mod to my factory rudder for 1K...

Good Luck

WEL

 

[Guy Stevens]

Er no not even close.....

As Martin says, if it comes to going that far, you would be WELL served by having Foss build up one of the newer rudder designs. The boat will be more responsive, point higher going upwind, and be much more controllable when heavy reaching or running.

Good luck,
S

The rudder design that Foss is trying to make for the 39 is less rudder area and although a "Newer" shape flat out does not steer the boat. The thing is a really bad joke. It has about 25% less area than the original small rudder.... So far of the people that I have know that have done it, we are ZERO, for three none of them can steer at anything under hull speed. Two of them have rebuilt their original rudders to Bruce's bigger design and one of them is really stuck having had Foss modify his, so he now has less armature than needed to even put the thing back to the way it was. If you really want to try out the Foss Design, I know where you can buy two of them cheap. Although after the haul out, and the accident or two that you are going to have getting out of your slip, the cost is going to seem really expensive.

Also the build quality on a couple of them have been far below what was expected.

DON'T have FOSS build you a new rudder or modify your old one. It is at least a $2K if not a $5k mistake.

I have the drawings that Bruce drew for the bigger rudder back in 1972. You are welcome to a copy of them for the costs of reproduction of them at Kinkos. It does mean that you have to do the work though, or have it done. (I asked Bruce about this and he gave me a verbal OK on copying them for other owners. Martin way in here if it is not OK any longer. )
Guy

 

[Guy Stevens]

As to the original question.....

The chunck chunck can come from at least three sources.

1> The most common Is that you have loose steering cables.
2> The packing in the rudder tube
3> The gudgeon and pintle set is worn.

Check the cables first. Grab the quadrant, and pull and push hard back and forth rapidly. Does it make the noise, can you feel the play in the cables?

Check the packing next, can you move the post side to side in the tube?

Then go swimming again, and grab the bottom of the rudder push back and forth. Does it make the noise now?

Guy

 

[Seth]

All good points

If you get the drawings from Guy, you could have Choate (Dencho Marine) build it for a very fair price. If you don't need exotic materials (and you really do not), it should be under 4K, but call and get a price-he can tell you on the phone what it will cost if you supply the King drawings...

BTW-the reason for doing it is if you are not pleased with controllabilty-especially downwind and reaching in big air-this is the biggest improvement you will get (and slightly better upwind VMG)-along with improved handling under power in tight quarters.

The "bite" of the rudder is one area of improvement for many BK designs of that era; the boats can be sailed harder (with more sail) and have better control, less "hunting" (track straighter) with the bigger blade..

Cheers,
S

 

[SimonV]

Okey, mine when worked in the water holding the bottom moves a little with a dunk dunk sound......will it fall off.

 

[Guy Stevens]

No it isn't going to fall off.... Howver

It isn't going to fall off. However it is going to start rubbing places that it should not. Primarly the training edge of the skeg and the if it gets real loose it will start bumping the hull....

One of the best ways to fix this does involve removing the rudder, cutting a little section out of the rudder so the gudgeon can come out. Then having the gudgeon (and if necessary) the pintle welded up, a piece of delrin inserted into the bottom, then the whole shebang put back together.

This make a nice setup afterward turning a bit smoother, and will get rid of your knocking etc.

Guy

 

[SimonV]

Guy, thanks for that, now how about explaining how to drop the rudder I have dived on it and can not see how ?

 

[Guy Stevens]

Somewhere here I have an article I wrote on how to do just that!

On 10/30/05 1:29 PM, "Guy Stevens" <guy@svpneuma.com> wrote:

OK how to get this across....... First included here are a four photos,
one of the area of the boat where the gudgeon is, one a close-up of the
gudgeon and the other of the rudder having been removed showing the gudgeon.
The fourth photo if of Noel my friend and substitute for a greased midget.
The gudgeon attaches the rudder to the lower skeg the gudgeon is attached to the rudder tube and comes off the boat with the rudder!!!!! You have to remove it from the boat, it stays attached to the rudder.


So here are the steps:

0> Haul Out the Boat!

1> Remove all of the steering gear off of the rudder shaft.

2> Remove the rudder packing gland ring bolts, (4), and the packing out of the gland.

3> Go outside the boat

4> While wearing safety glasses, using a wire wheel on a grinder, remove about 6-8" of fairing just forward of the rudder on the bottom side of the skeg. This will expose the Gudgeon, or as you stated "lower skeg fitting on which the rudder sits".

5> Clean the Machine Screw heads that are now exposed, remove any fairing compound from the gudgeon (The large brass piece that you can now see). Also remove the bedding or fairing compound that is between the gudgeon and the sides of the molded in gudgeon socket.

5a> Support the rudder with wood or what have you from the outside, so that it does not fall on the person operating the screwdriver outside the boat (Might be you, might be whoever you can sucker into this.)

6> Send your BEST double jointed greased midget into the cockpit locker.

7> Have double jointed greased midget hold the nuts on the top of the skeg. Note this is at the bottom of the skeg, and a bit hard to get to. Hence the midget. (Note on one boat I have been on, these nuts were glassed over. Don't know if that was the factory, or a later owner. It is Apparent if they are, as they look like glassed over nuts. Should this be the case in your boat, then you have to hand the midget the grinder and have him or her gently take the glass off of the nuts, while not messing up the nuts. Or the hull next to the nuts, or getting his or her face involved in the grinder etc.((See why we used you BEST midget ) ) A socket set and a long extension are best for this!

8> Once the bolts are off the rudder will most likely fall out. (That is why we have the wood there!)

9> Get three large guys (Buy the midget a bear, give him whatever he wants, hug him tell him he would have made a better Frodo and that Peter Jackson never knew anything about casting anyway, and send him on his way, we won't have need of him till the spring when we go to put the rudder back in.) Remove the rudder by gently turning it from side to side as it slips out.
IT IS HEAVY!!!! You might have to break the bedding loose from the gudgeon if it sticks.

10> Place the rudder in the back of a pickup. DON'T put it on the ground, it is really hard to get off the ground if you put it there, even with four big guys. (Note small g on guys).

Reverse directions in the spring using tons and tons of sikaflex 291 bedding compound on the gudgeon, Don't forget to place the packing gland ring back on the shaft.... And fair out the gudgeon again (Or not depending on your feelings about hydrodynamic flow and aesthetics... however the 15 minutes
this takes make it look a lot more professional)

I modified the existing rudder using the plans from Bruce King. I did vacuum bag the rudder, and used carbon fiber for exceptional strength in the addition. Take a good look at your rudder shaft and split the rudder to start your repair and look at the internal web before you make a decision about replacing or buying a new one.

To give you an idea of how well it backs after the mod....I backed off a side tie, in 30 knots of beam wind, down the fairway turned around and piloted out of the marina. The friend of mine who was aboard to handle the lines has been boating for 20 years, stood there with his mouth literally open gaping at what he saw....

I will edit this and add photos in a few minutes

Guy

 

[Martin King]

You should really drop the rudder with the boat hauled out. IIRC,
there are 3 throughbolts holding on the pintle.

Martin

 

[Sven]

Is that really a 39 (or 39B) ?

Guy,

that rudder looks smaller than the one we have. It that just an example picture or is it really a 39 ?


P.S. Great description.




-Sven

 

[SimonV]

Guy, thanks a gain that is most helpful. I thought there may have been some hidden bolts I just hate glass and grinders. The boat comes out later in the year so I shall consider looking at it.

 

[Guy Stevens]

That is the rudder off of My 46

It is the same setup as yours, it has 5 bolts instead of the three that you have, and is massive. A lot bigger than yours, if you are comparing it to the boat then that could be confusing....

They are the photos that I happen to have handy. Having had the rudder off of a bunch of 39's I can tell you the exact same process applies to both boats.

That rudder is a lot bigger than the original on the 46. Bruce Sent me the plans, and It was updated from them. As I understand it Bruce King has officially retired and is no longer taking calls from us!!! Good thing Bruce!!! Martin next time you see him say hello from me.

However I have the rudder plans for the larger rudder that he drew. At one point I asked if I could pass them on and he said it was fine.

Martin could you verify that it is still fine to pass on the larger rudder plans for the 39 and 46?

Thanks,
Guy

 

[Sven]

It is the same setup as yours, it has 5 bolts instead of the three that you have, and is massive. A lot bigger than yours, if you are comparing it to the boat then that could be confusing....

Ah, the rudder on your 46, that makes a lot more sense. I was about to dig out a 39 photo to do a side by side comparison.

Thanks for the clarification.



-Sven

 

[Martin King]

Yep. It's cool.


Martin

 

[Sven]

Yep. It's cool.

Guy, in that case I'd like to put in a request for future reference, just in case.

Maybe you have it in a form that you would just upload here (in the archives) ?

Thanks to Martin too for following up.


-Sven