e39 rudder

[rob m]

anyone know whats 'inside' this rudder? or who made them? have just sanded mine down and found some alarming cracks, and wonder whats inside and if i should be worried. thanks all!

generally speaking, anyone have a manual for a 39 flushdeck, schematics, etc? would be eternally grateful for same.

 

[Seth]

rudder

Should be a metal post with a "fin" attached facing aft from the post. The rudder is made with blown foam which is surrounded with fiberglass. Crude answer, but basicaly correct-Martin is this right?
S

 

[rob m]

Thanks Seth -- sort of thought the same, but nice to have it confirmed. by any chance do you have manuals for the e-39?

 

[Martin King]

Yes the rudder on a 39 is indeed foam filled glass over a welded steel skeleton. The original mold for the 39 rudder still exists at the Foss Co. I had them use it to build an extended version on my old 39. The original blade is a bit small for the boat, and that boat definitely benefitted from a bigger, deeper one. If you have a rudder that is cracking and delaminating I'd advise
you to scrap it and buy a new one. The new post can be accurately
turned to fit the old (and worn) bearings and built to whatever design
you like. Or I suppose one could just patch up the original 30 year old
soggy mess and cross your fingers.

Martin
E-31C

 

[rob m]

thanks Martin. on digging deeper i have found the rudder dry and not delaminated (sounded, used moisture meter, checked for drips at cracks, etc), and the cracks to be in what seems to be INCREDIBLY thick gelcoat (>3/16ths). As all are on one side, they may be thermal.

how much did you get added to depth in your rudder? I think i will stay with mine as is but am curious on your experience.

 

[Martin King]

Rob,
As I recall, we added on about 8 inches and kept the same profile. I've
heard of others doing similar things and updating the profiles with
more elliptical shapes. In my case, the boat handled noticeably better
in tight turns, backing up, and had less weather helm. Since the new
shaft was carefully turned to match the old bearings, there was virtually
no slop and less friction resulting in less effort required at the wheel. I have
pretty strong feelings regarding steering systems on board and the peace of
mind and better handling from this upgrade was well worth the bucks spent.

Martin
E31C

 

[jmoses]

Rudder mods

Rob,

I did a custom rudder mod several years ago on my '72 E-35 MKII. The plans came from California Custom Yacht Design (CCYD) for 25.00. He had worked up a NACA profile that is akin to an airplane wing and about 14" longer as well. He provided two options: totally new rudder, or modify the current one after stripping all the foam off and asuming in god shape. I went the totally new route and am quite pleased; turns on a dime, weather helm is much, much less and I can actually back down now.

Upon discussions with CCYD, I was told that in order to save money, Ericson placed the 32 rudder on the 35 and used A-4's instead of the Westerbeke diesel that was designed in. Bruce King was supposedly irate that Ericson dropped in another rudder and lightened the boat by a hunderd pounds or so by putting in the A-4 instead. Rumors? possibly, but with the new rudder it handles MUCH better and the A-4 has been a little wimpy at times with just 25 hp. Plus the boat could use a couple hundred pounds right about under the companionway steps (install bigger batteries instead in that location?). Anyway, my $0.02 worth.

See before and after shots below.

John M

 

[bbboat]

Procedure for removing rudder from E39

I have a similar crack in my E39 rudder, but I'm at a loss on how to remove it? Does anyone know the procedure?

I've removed everything connected to the rudder (quadrant, head plate, etc.), and the rudder had "dropped" all of 1/2 inch, resting now on a very thick brass extension that appears to be glassed into the skeg. (I've attached a picture of this lower area of the rudder skeg, but not sure how to make it appear on this posting). There is only about an inch of up and down play between this extension at the bottom and the hull at the top, and definitely no room to maneuver the post up and out of this extension.

Does the brass post come up from outside of the stainless steel sleeve? Is there some fitting that's been hidden by bottom paint? Removing a rudder shouldn't be this perplexing?

 

[evm]

Go crawl around underneath the cockpit sole and pull up the access board just forward of the quadrant. Reach down there and remove the gunk and debris and unscrew the plate that holds the rudder in place.

(been a while for me, your boat should be the same as mine)

 

[bbboat]

Does this plate hold the gudgeon in place?

Go crawl around underneath the cockpit sole and pull up the access board just forward of the quadrant. Reach down there and remove the gunk and debris and unscrew the plate that holds the rudder in place.

(been a while for me, your boat should be the same as mine)

I'm hoping it is, because the only other solution I've heard is to grind out the fairing compound on the hull underneath the gudgeon and remove it that way.

 

[Guy Stevens]

Same thing....

He is talking about the nuts that are located under the cockpit, these hold the gudgeon onto the boat. They are the same nuts that I mentioned in the e-mail (the part that you need the greased double jointed midget for. )

Guy

 

[Guy Stevens]

It really isn't that bad

Unscrewing the bolts takes some doing, the small amount of fairling compound that you have to remove is not a big deal, you could probably do it with a screw driver if you were carefull.

Really just go and do it, it took me longer to write the e-mail to you than it does to remove the rudder.

Guy

 

[bbboat]

On my way to the boat today. Thanks

 

[bbboat]

Whew! Rudder's in the garage now thanks to advice and inspiration of everyone on this site. I was able to do it all by myself (sounds like a 4 year old saying that), but I'd get a friend or two to help if I had to do it over again (which I will, in reverse, this Spring). Interestingly, the rudder post was filled with water, yet the bilge area where the bolts are was bone-dry. Leaking in from the deck fitting? Or seeping in from the rudder itself?

BTW - Guy: Didn't need to use the grinder. A couple of smart whacks on the top of the bolts moved everything just enough to separate the entire chunk of fairing compound free of both the gudgeon plate and keel.

 

[evm]

Whew! Rudder's in the garage now thanks to advice and inspiration of everyone on this site. I was able to do it all by myself (sounds like a 4 year old saying that), but I'd get a friend or two to help if I had to do it over again (which I will, in reverse, this Spring). Interestingly, the rudder post was filled with water, yet the bilge area where the bolts are was bone-dry. Leaking in from the deck fitting? Or seeping in from the rudder itself?

BTW - Guy: Didn't need to use the grinder. A couple of smart whacks on the top of the bolts moved everything just enough to separate the entire chunk of fairing compound free of both the gudgeon plate and keel.

Take some pictures and post them (before after)

 

[Guy Stevens]

Lucky!!!

That is good, I have had them break just enough fairing to let the bolt turn without the nuts coming off. Glad that it worked out that the bolts were held by the fairing compound for you.

I don't remember if my detailed instructions included the obouvious bedding compound when you put it back on....

Were your bolts Bronze or SS? I have seen both and have wondered for a while which was factory.

Around here we taste the water to see which it is fresh or salt. Salt is from the floaty part, fresh from the sky part. Generally any water that stays in there after haul out is from the top down, although I have seen some where it might have been the opposite.


Guy

 

[Guy Stevens]

Photos

Here is an attempt at two photos, one of the rudder on the boat, the other of the rudder off the boat.

 

[bbboat]

Yes, Guy, you did talk about the pros and cons of redoing the fairing compound - I think I will do it. I'm thinking the water is from the sky part - leaking in from around the deck fitting for the emergency tiller. I'm going to have to rebuild that as well.

The bolts were stainless. In my case, the fairing held the bolts in place long enough to turn the nuts (except for one nasty bolt, for which I set up a rachet inside the bolt to hold the nut, while I turned the bolt from underneath with a screwdriver assisted by a pair of Vise-Grips to give me some torque).

 

[bbboat]

Is this what the modified rudder looked like?

Martin, is this the modified rudder design Foss made for you? They told me it's based on a Cal 40, and that they no longer have the E39 mold.

I've pulled my original rudder and am definitely going with a longer replacement - let me know if this is the one you went with, or if it was something different.