Ericson 36, 1982 Vintage- Ron Holland Design versus Bruce King Designs

JulieMac

Junior Member
My partner and I have been in the market for an Ericson 38-200. We're very familiar with that design, having seen some.

Does anyone out there own an Ericson 36, designed by Ron Holland? I was wondering how this boat would compare to the Bruce King design in a similar size. Any thoughts out there?

Also, how would this boat compare to the E38, outside of room and comfort?

Reason I ask, is that a 1982 E36 appeared on the market at what appears to be a low cost. I don't have info yet on condition, nor have we seen it.
 

Seth

Sustaining Partner
Big topic

My partner and I have been in the market for an Ericson 38-200. We're very familiar with that design, having seen some.

Does anyone out there own an Ericson 36, designed by Ron Holland? I was wondering how this boat would compare to the Bruce King design in a similar size. Any thoughts out there?

Also, how would this boat compare to the E38, outside of room and comfort?

Reason I ask, is that a 1982 E36 appeared on the market at what appears to be a low cost. I don't have info yet on condition, nor have we seen it.

Well...............this is a big topic- the boats are quite different. The 36 is a faster boat all around-it is lighter with better weight distribution-mainly because it was intended to be a true racer-cruiser, as opposed to the 38 which is more of a cruiser-racer. The biggest performance advantage will be in lighter air, but it is simply a more performance-oriented boat. The good news is that both boats are constructed similarly using the TAFG, so both are quite strong boats with very well engineered load distribution. The 38 will certainly have more storage for cruising gear and live-aboard stuff, but the 36 has a better interior for offshore work- it has the simple and proven main cabin with settee berths on each side, and it is easy to rig leecloths or lee boards making sleeping offshore more comfortable, and you will be sleeping in the middle of the boat when offshore where the motion is easiest-as opposed for forward or aft in the 38 (for most people).

Being a more performance oriented person, I would go with the 36. The downside is that performance is more affected by the weight of cruising gear (anchors/bow rollers, stores, etc.), but on the other hand, even when slowed down a bit by the weight of cruising gear, it should still be quicker.

This is not to say the 38 is a slouch by any means-I have raced them quite successfully in PHRF, and the difference in performance over the course of an offshore passage will be hours, not days. Both boats are super capable passage-makers and will handle any weather or sailing condition just fine provided you have the right sail combinations and equipment. Both boats need minor mods for extended offshore work (bigger cockpit drains, single piece locking hatchboards, storm sails, running backstays, autopilot, etc.), but this is true of any production boat.

These are both great boats by great designers, and they are both very well built. The choice (apart from price) is going to be driven by your preferences. If you like to entertain dockside or spend a lot of time at anchor, the 38 will be a bit more comfy. Life at sea will be nicer on the 36.

Hope this helps..

S
 

markvone

Sustaining Member
I have a E36RH and can answer any specific questions you may have that Seth didn't answer. I am also a performance oriented sailor, so the E36RH was my first choice when I decided to get back into an Ericson after 20 years of windsurfing and performance dingy sailing. The E38 is my second favorite Ericson. E38 would be better for extended stays and longer cruises if those are in your plans. The E38-200 and original E38 have two cabin layouts for two couples. While, I would have no problem doing a two week cruise on the E36RH with the guys or with kids, the aft quarter berth is narrow for a couple and open to the salon, so two couple cruising is not as good. The E38 can be found in a shoal draft model, the E36RH is 6'3" only. There are many more E38s available, they cost more than the E36RH because they are better known in general and appeal to a large segment of the market. The virtues of the E36RH are not well known after 30 years (only 32 made), hence the lower prices. The E36RH competes with other 30 year old boats on general price, condition and features, not that it's a stellar performer.

Mark
 

JulieMac

Junior Member
Good Points

E38 would be better for extended stays and longer cruises if those are in your plans. The E38-200 and original E38 have two cabin layouts for two couples. While, I would have no problem doing a two week cruise on the E36RH with the guys or with kids, the aft quarter berth is narrow for a couple and open to the salon, so two couple cruising is not as good. The E38 can be found in a shoal draft model, the E36RH is 6'3" only. There are many more E38s available, they cost more than the E36RH because they are better known in general and appeal to a large segment of the market. The virtues of the E36RH are not well known after 30 years (only 32 made), hence the lower prices. The E36RH competes with other 30 year old boats on general price, condition and features, not that it's a stellar performer.

Mark

Yes, I agree, Mark. We've yet to sail either the E38 or E36RH. Judging by the pics I've seen online of the 36, it's more of a racer/cruiser than the other way around. If we want to take our boat across Lake Michigan and harbor hop for a week up the Michigan side, the 38 makes more sense as a comfortable cruiser. If spirited say sailing is more our thing, the 36 would be better suited, right?

Some of this comes down to money, as the E36 is less than the E38-200's we've seen. We're trying to judge if it's worth dipping deeper for the bigger, newer boat. The E38-200 appeals to us as it's a few years newer, and less apt to show it's age. That said, condition and maintenance by the prior owner is paramount.

BTW, any particular problems or flaws inherent to the 36 design? Do you know how it sails versus the E35's out there by Bruce King? His design weighs 2000 lbs more than Holland's.
 

markvone

Sustaining Member
I think you've got the differences in the two designs pretty much figured out.

The E36 is simplier, has less furniture and is therefore lighter and more open. The v-berth doors were an option. The entire bow area under the v-berth is completely empty. The tanks are under the settees in the middle of the boat. The std tankage is better than average: 70 water, 50 fuel, 20 holding. The area outboard of the settees under the pilot berths is completely empty and great for storage. The salon table folds up on the mast so the center of the boat is wide open. The galley is fine and has good storage plus the usual Ericson custom built-ins for bar and dishes. There is a full size nav table which is nice if you still plot on charts and there is plenty of room for electronics (but a chartplotter at the helm is pretty standard now). The open plan really helps ventilation at the expense of private cabins. Here in the hot Chesapeake, that was major factor for me. The cockpit lazerette area is huge and extends into the transom and across to the qtr berth so you can access the steering and engine completely. The hull volume of the E36 is pretty large, but a lot of it is empty, particularly at the ends. Because of this, the boat is easy to sail fast and sails incredibly well in light air - another must have here in the Chesapeake if you want to get out and sail often. It easily sails with a 150 genoa in 2-3 knots of breeze. The boat has the room to add a lot of cruising gear, but as Seth says, the added weight is going to work against performance. On deck, generally all the E36RHs have great sail handling layouts from their racing days. I sail mine singlehanded a lot so I much prefer the bridge deck 7:1 (no winch) mainsheet and the main traveller close to the helm to the cabintop main controls on the E38.


The E38 with the 6'6" deep keel is pretty close in performance to the E36RH, rated a little slower. It has more weight in the ends and probabaly most of the boats have a lot more cruising gear stuffed in there as well. The shoal versions are a little slower, particularly to windward. The E38 interior makes a nicer place to hang out in. There's more furniture and built-ins. The two cabins are more private. I'd guess you'd need A/C in a hot climate to fully use the cabins with doors closed. More of the space outboard and in the ends is harder to get to. The cabintop main controls open up seating in the cockpit and allow a bigger dodger.

Common issues I've seen on E36RHs: smallish non-selftailing primary winches, usually Barient 28s, halyards and controls at the mast for racing - not lead aft, lots of non-selftailing winches at mast and on cabintop due to a lack of rope clutches, many old, beat racing sails and no new usable furling sails in the inventory (really, do you need a MATCHING Blooper to go with that 20 year old 1.5 oz triradial spinnaker!), wet decks and wet interior teak from leaking deck components and the neglect of just one previous owner. The only minor design isssue is a typical starboard list from a full fuel tank and an empty water tank. Once the fuel tank is full, it's going to take a lot of engine hrs to burn off 50 gal. I'm finally down to half a tank after three seasons.

The E35-3 is like a smaller early E38 (non -200 series, fwd head, no aft cabin). Sails nice, but slightly slower than a E38 with the same style keel. Very nice, slightly smaller interior. I raced on an E35-3 and we had a E36RH in the fleet when both boats were new. The E36 was in the fastest class and we were in the next class down. The E36RH is better in light air and easier to sail fast. The E35-3 has the interior advantages of the E38 except smaller and no private aft cabin. It would be a good, less expensive alternative to the E38. If you really like the E38-200 layout and want less expensive, the late 80s E34 has the aft head layout and is closer to 35'.

Mark
 

Loren Beach

O34 - Portland, OR
Senior Moderator
Blogs Author
Bump. :egrin:

Just 'cause the thoughtful discussion in this thread deserves, IMHO, an audience of our more recent site members.
Admittedly, I have a slight bias for the E-38, having done an overnight delivery on one. Comfortable in a seaway, and (in my limited experience with other makes of boat) quite fast.
i.e. in a strong breeze it can rack up the miles at 8 kts.
 

Seth

Sustaining Partner
Well, I think most of what can be said on this topic has been said in this thread. One thing I would add is that while the interior of the 38 is a bit roomier and most comfortable when anchored or at the dock, the open interior and layout of the 36 RH is better suited for offshore sailing. There are more usable sea berths. The 36RH will have a little better motion in a seaway thanks to less weight in the ends-even if you use the forward section for anchor/chain storage and the lazarette.. As always it’s a matter of your priorities. Both are great and capable boats. Enjoy
 

N.A.

E34 / SF Bay
Both boats need minor mods for extended offshore work (bigger cockpit drains, single piece locking hatchboards, storm sails, running backstays, autopilot, etc.), but this is true of any production boat.

I realize @Seth's post is 10 years old, but if he sees this...

How much bigger do you make your cockpit drains? 2" dia.? Bigger? Do you replace the throughhulls (which would limit bigger cockpit drains), or drill holes in the stern and lead the drains out that way, with a flap to keep waves out or something? I have been thinking about this, as the Singlehanded Sailing Society asks for draining in 2 minutes, and I doubt the current drains would do that.

Also... running backstays? I have not heard anyone here mention adding those. Any elaboration would be of interest.

[Aside: For anyone else thinking about single-piece hatchboards; I plan to make a single-piece hatchboard myself, but... on my E34, a full cockpit would drain down the companionway; the 1st hatchboard is a necessity to prevent that (and for that reason the local YRA requires that board to be screwed in during offshore races.) So I have been considering a single-piece upper hatchboard as well, so it is easy to take that out (and gain hatch access) while keeping it so a full cockpit would still be below the companionway entrance height. I don't want to have to take out the entire hatchboard to get onto deck.]
 

Seth

Sustaining Partner
I realize @Seth's post is 10 years old, but if he sees this...

How much bigger do you make your cockpit drains? 2" dia.? Bigger? Do you replace the throughhulls (which would limit bigger cockpit drains), or drill holes in the stern and lead the drains out that way, with a flap to keep waves out or something? I have been thinking about this, as the Singlehanded Sailing Society asks for draining in 2 minutes, and I doubt the current drains would do that.

Also... running backstays? I have not heard anyone here mention adding those. Any elaboration would be of interest.

[Aside: For anyone else thinking about single-piece hatchboards; I plan to make a single-piece hatchboard myself, but... on my E34, a full cockpit would drain down the companionway; the 1st hatchboard is a necessity to prevent that (and for that reason the local YRA requires that board to be screwed in during offshore races.) So I have been considering a single-piece upper hatchboard as well, so it is easy to take that out (and gain hatch access) while keeping it so a full cockpit would still be below the companionway entrance height. I don't want to have to take out the entire hatchboard to get onto deck.]
It has been a while, but by memory I think the number was 1.75" to drain in around 90 seconds, and if you can get 2", why not? Cheap insurance. A heavy duty single, locking (from the inside) hatchboard is a MUST for offshore sailing. You might even want to add some aluminum strip reinforcement on the inside of the cabin to be sure the hatch is not pushed by a breaking wave. Of course this is for serious offshore work, which few people really do, but that is something I would do. As for runners- assuming we are talking about the 36RH, yes. You don't need them to keep the rig up, but you can get much better control of mainsail shape (together with the backstay and babystay if it is still rigged), and prevent pumping, which can eventually lead to fatigue in the rig and fittings. If you have removed the babystay, they are even more valuable. When sailing with a deep reef it will provide support for the rig that a full main normally provides. The tangs are in the mast anyway, and they don't need to be fancy- a simple 4:1 or just take it to the secondary winch will suffice. I would have them in a 38 as well if sailing offshore. The rig is not as bendy, but they do add stability and sail shape control. Cheers
 

Christian Williams

E381 - Los Angeles
Senior Moderator
Blogs Author
My experience backs up the one-piece hatchboard, and a way to lock it from inside. Regarding cockpit drains, there are racing rules but in several near gales on the 38, and days on a splashy beam reach in 30 knots plus, hardly any water entered the cockpit. In a knockdown I got a full wave dump once, but the motion and the heel were so radical that half of it slopped out, taking the lee weather cloth with it.

I calculated at one point the added weight of an E38 cockpit filled to the brim with seawater. It amounted to a bunch of people that didn't seem to affect trim all that much.. For what that's worth, worrying-about -it-wise.
 

Seth

Sustaining Partner
My experience backs up the one-piece hatchboard, and a way to lock it from inside. Regarding cockpit drains, there are racing rules but in several near gales on the 38, and days on a splashy beam reach in 30 knots plus, hardly any water entered the cockpit. In a knockdown I got a full wave dump once, but the motion and the heel were so radical that half of it slopped out, taking the lee weather cloth with it.

I calculated at one point the added weight of an E38 cockpit filled to the brim with seawater. It amounted to a bunch of people that didn't seem to affect trim all that much.. For what that's worth, worrying-about -it-wise.
Great input. I can't disagree except to "do the math" and sure the drains can remove a full cockpit in under about 2 minutes. If so, not a big deal. As we all know, a full cockpit puts a boat in a vulnerable position in breaking seas, so the point is to limit your exposure to damage or potential rollover from the next one. Of course we are talking about extreme conditions, and the chances of being in such a position is very low, but OTOH, if it is a simple thing to significantly increase your draining capabilities, why wouldn't you? Good post!
 

EngineerSailing

Member II
I have a E36RH and can answer any specific questions you may have that Seth didn't answer. I am also a performance oriented sailor, so the E36RH was my first choice when I decided to get back into an Ericson after 20 years of windsurfing and performance dingy sailing. The E38 is my second favorite Ericson. E38 would be better for extended stays and longer cruises if those are in your plans. The E38-200 and original E38 have two cabin layouts for two couples. While, I would have no problem doing a two week cruise on the E36RH with the guys or with kids, the aft quarter berth is narrow for a couple and open to the salon, so two couple cruising is not as good. The E38 can be found in a shoal draft model, the E36RH is 6'3" only. There are many more E38s available, they cost more than the E36RH because they are better known in general and appeal to a large segment of the market. The virtues of the E36RH are not well known after 30 years (only 32 made), hence the lower prices. The E36RH competes with other 30 year old boats on general price, condition and features, not that it's a stellar performer.

Mark
Hi Mark,
Do you still have the E36RH serial # 21 Glide?

I'm on #2 Shazam, come April I'll have been living aboard for roughly 1 year.
I have the shoal draft keel model of 5'8" wing keel(before loading gear on). Wing keel sounds like a great design on paper much haven't found it useful in practice wish it was a bulb keel instead.

Light Air: mine even loaded down with the stuff from a 3 bedroom house will light air sail. I can move along (slowly) in calm winds the french production cruisers can not

Anchor locker what anchor locker?? There is a small hatch up on the bow to keep some rode, but anchors won't fit. Also no windless so I try to only use Nylon since I'm pulling up by hand.
 
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