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Factory original bilge pumps in 32-3

Kenneth K

1985 32-3, Puget Sound
Blogs Author
I would not classify other owner's reports of pump failings as "emotional", however. :)
Agreed. Reporting the specific problems you experienced in your second post was informative and unemotional. Refering to them as "near worthless," in your first post, however, without further explanation, was just name-calling. Seems I've read other posts where readers were urged to "chuck their Rule centrifugals over the railings." Without background explanation, such posts are unhelpful and misleading.

I think your first complaint about centrifugal pumps is valid, but the other two are less so.

1) Yes, they allow backflow when the pump stops--this may make them unsuitable for applications where the user desires a "dry" bilge after pumping, or where the backflow causes repeated cycling of the float switch.

2) Yes, they can airlock (which prevents pumping at startup) IF the discharge line has a blockage that holds static water in the line before the pump gets up to speed. The common causes of this are (a) check valves, and (b) sags in the discharge line where water is trapped after pumping stops (effectively, like the p-trap under your sink). This is not a fault of the pump, but an issue with the discharge hose installation. In the 32-3, there seems to be no sag points in the discharge hose (and I won't use check valves). Accordingly, I have never had a "airlock" blockage in my centrifugal pumps. If the O-34 was built with sags in the bilge discharge hoses, then the MFG should have been aware of this and installed diaphragm pumps at the factory. If an O-34 owner later unwittingly changes to centrifugal pumps, he would likely, then, encounter problems. But that is a function of the particular installation and not a "fault" of the pump.

3) Yes, their output rate is lower than the rate stamped on the label. Such is the case with most mechanical systems. My 51A Motorola alternator has likely never put out that much power. If it ever did, it was in the Motorola lab, under controlled conditions, with a zero resistance load attached. My "50W" solar panels have an open-circuit-voltage of 21.8V and a short-circuit-current of 3.1A. Sounds like they should put out 67.58 W (V x A). In truth, they rarely, if ever, put out 50W. These numbers are just engineering specifications of the design/theoretical limitations of the systems they describe. The (very high quality, I assume) Sea-Flow vane pumps that trickdhat shows above state an "open flow" rate of 8gpm (480 gph). But tell me how to achieve "open flow" in an actual bilge installation.

Judging from what you described in your second post, it may be that centrifugal bilge pumps (regardless of mfg) are a bad fit for the O-34. Owners of other boats may want to understand why, so they can make their own best decisions in regards to their own boats.
 
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jtsai

Member III
My poor experiences with the Rule bilge pumps are those advertised as "Rule Electronic Sensing Automatic Bilge Pumps: These pumps boast "smart" operation, with an internal computer chip that cycles them on every 2 1/2 minutes, then quickly shuts them down if no water is detected". The unit operates without internal or external float switch.


The 2 1/2 minutes sensing cycle pulses the pump for half a second is annoying especially for guests sleeping in the saloon. I was able to tuned it out until "hey, I haven't heard the sensing cycle for quite while, are you ok?" then discovered the sensing cycle no longer cycle which rendered the pump useless. This happened to two different pumps, less than one year old, under warranty. It is now a backup pump, I replaced it with an old fashion Rule pump with internal float, a water sensing alarm, and check the pump mechanism often even though the main bilge is bone dry.

Technology is smart until it doesn't work.
 

Bolo

Contributing Partner
Wow! A lot has been written about bilge pumps on this thread but let’s try and make it simple. Centrifugal type pumps push water, diaphragm pumps suck water. It doesn’t matter where the diaphragm pump is located on a boat, it‘ll suck the water right up to it and then dump it out the other end so having the pump as close to the above the water line through hull is IMO the best spot. Over the 15 years that I’ve own (and repaired) our E32-3 I bet I’ve gone though a half dozen Rule pumps, plus there was always the back flow problem.

So I replaced both Rule pumps with two Jabsco diaphragm pumps mounted in the aft, port locker which put them very close to the stern and the the through hulls. “Traditional“ float switches are in each bilge along with the necessary (for diaphragm pump) strainers. I’ve had no bilge pump issues since. The attached photo shows the setup in the shower/mast bilge with the main bilge set up use same way. The hose that goes to the bottom of the bilge is cut at a slight angle, maybe 15 to 20 degrees, which allows most of the water to be drained out when using the “manual” switch. On a E32-3 the mast bilge is almost never dry which is just something we 32 owners need to live with but most of the water can be pumped out with the diaphragm setup. The photo shows reddish liquid which is antifreeze that I keep in the bilge during winter storage to keep the chance of freezing water to a minimum. This is an older photo, before I replace the cabin sole. Since then the bilge was cleaned up. I don’t have a photo of the bilge pumps placement (I’ll try and take one during my next trip) but I can say that the pumps didn’t take up too much room in the aft compartment. If you think you can’t install the pumps in there because of all the “stuff” you store in that compartment then maybe you need to think about why you’re carrying all that ”stuff”. :)

55BF5863-EB95-49D0-9119-1223B33E5870.jpeg
 

Alan Gomes

Sustaining Partner
Rule-Mate customer reviews (West Marine):

View attachment 45727
I'm convinced. Rule pumps suck--or don't suck, as the case may be.

The tiny Rule pump in my E26 continues to work without issue, though the Rule float switch did croak. I replaced it with a Water Witch, which (witch?) has been excellent.

I think I will be scoping out locations for a diaphragm pump, should I find myself in the position of needing to replace the Rule.
 

Kenneth K

1985 32-3, Puget Sound
Blogs Author
The Rule pumps I have been defending are the only ones I have actual experience with--the original, non-automatic, cylindrical (Rule also sold a similar, square option) 500 and 800 gph models. Six years with no failures, no faults, and they worked perfectly the one time (knock on wood) I really needed them to (PSS failure). Here are my installations:
20210210_183000 (3).jpg Mast/shower bilge, 500gph, paired with Aqualarm Smart-Switch, hot-wired to house batts.

20210210_182948.jpg Bilge #2, 800gph, no float switch (controlled from breaker on main DC panel)

B3.jpg Bilge #3, 800 gph, paired with Aqualarm Smart-Switch and On-Off-Auto switch (hotwired to house batts)

I first saw Rule's "automatic" (built-in float switch) models around 2020, when I was buying a spare 800 gph manual pump. I remember being thoroughly confused that Rule thought it a "smart" idea for a pump to cycle on every 2.5 minutes (that's 17,520 cycles/month) whether there was water in the bilge or not. My concern wasn't just the wasted power consumption (boat on a buoy, with no AC power) but in losing the ability to adjust the height of the float switch. I don't want the mast bilge pump to cycle every time there is a slight puddle; I want water to collect to a point just below overflow (into the TAFG limber hole), then one long pump cycle to clear the bilge. I didn't buy a Rule Auto pump then and I wouldn't buy one today.

The question I have now is whether Rule's new manual pumps (no built-in switch) are an improvement or a flop versus the ones I currently use. Apparently, Rule now adds a check valve to solve the "backflow" problem. But the start-up/priming problems caused by check valves means they also had to add "hidden vents," which, Rule claims, will also handle the issue of air-locks in sagging hoses. If all this works, it could be an improvement. But, if the new check-valve-and-vent system flubs, it adds one or two new failure points the original pumps didn't have.

It would be interesting to hear comments from people who have used these new manual Rule centrifugal pumps.
 
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jtsai

Member III
The Rule pumps I have been defending are the only ones I have actual experience with--the original, non-automatic, cylindrical (Rule also sold a similar, square option) 500 and 800 gph models. Six years with no failures, no faults, and they worked perfectly the one time (knock on wood) I really needed them to (PSS failure). Here are my installations:
View attachment 45733 Mast/shower bilge, 500gph, paired with Aqualarm Smart-Switch, hot-wired to house batts.

View attachment 45734 Bilge #2, 800gph, no float switch (controlled from breaker on main DC panel)

View attachment 45735 Bilge #3, 800 gph, paired with Aqualarm Smart-Switch and On-Off-Auto switch (hotwired to house batts)
Very nicely done. Those bilges are cleaner than my toaster oven!
 

GrandpaSteve

Sustaining Member
Wow! A lot has been written about bilge pumps on this thread but let’s try and make it simple. Centrifugal type pumps push water, diaphragm pumps suck water. It doesn’t matter where the diaphragm pump is located on a boat, it‘ll suck the water right up to it and then dump it out the other end so having the pump as close to the above the water line through hull is IMO the best spot. Over the 15 years that I’ve own (and repaired) our E32-3 I bet I’ve gone though a half dozen Rule pumps, plus there was always the back flow problem.

So I replaced both Rule pumps with two Jabsco diaphragm pumps mounted in the aft, port locker which put them very close to the stern and the the through hulls. “Traditional“ float switches are in each bilge along with the necessary (for diaphragm pump) strainers. I’ve had no bilge pump issues since. The attached photo shows the setup in the shower/mast bilge with the main bilge set up use same way. The hose that goes to the bottom of the bilge is cut at a slight angle, maybe 15 to 20 degrees, which allows most of the water to be drained out when using the “manual” switch. On a E32-3 the mast bilge is almost never dry which is just something we 32 owners need to live with but most of the water can be pumped out with the diaphragm setup. The photo shows reddish liquid which is antifreeze that I keep in the bilge during winter storage to keep the chance of freezing water to a minimum. This is an older photo, before I replace the cabin sole. Since then the bilge was cleaned up. I don’t have a photo of the bilge pumps placement (I’ll try and take one during my next trip) but I can say that the pumps didn’t take up too much room in the aft compartment. If you think you can’t install the pumps in there because of all the “stuff” you store in that compartment then maybe you need to think about why you’re carrying all that ”stuff”. :)

View attachment 45723
Bob, I have a 32-3 and I don't understand the aft port locker. Do you mean the aft port cockpit locker?
 

Bolo

Contributing Partner
Bob, I have a 32-3 and I don't understand the aft port locker. Do you mean the aft port cockpit locker?
Yes, or lazarette, in the cockpit, the curved seat on the port side right behind the wheel. It's the one I'm afraid to get into without anyone else on the boat cause I might get stuck! :oops:
 

william.haas

1990 Ericson 28-2
Bill, are those fabric bags at the top of the photo something that you have added for gear or clothing storage? Good idea, looks like...
Hi Loren… yes there’s one installed there and one in the forepeak. For cruising trips they are ideal for smaller personal items like your contacts case and glasses, the book you are reading, cell phone, the knife you had clipped to your belt, etc. Essentially they become your nightstand. On day sails I usually use it for wallet, car keys, and other items as convenient.

A link to that particular product follows: https://defender.com/en_us/blue-performance-cabin-bag-small-bp3580

As a side note, I really like the quality of the Blue Performance gear and also have a sheet bag and upgraded to the fabric winch handle holders after fighting with dirty vinyl ones for years.
 

william.haas

1990 Ericson 28-2
I'm curious mostly about the 32-3 specifically, but this is interesting. Is that small access opening adequate for servicing your pumps? What brand/model pumps do you have?
There are two diaphragm pumps installed along with strainers. There is enough room to service the strainers which I do regularly. I have a feeling when one of the pumps finally requires replacement it will be a pain in the a$$ or require my nephew graduating from plastic Fischer Price tools to the real deal using his much smaller hands and arms.
 

Jerry VB

E32-3 / M-25XP
Does anyone know how bilge pumping was arranged from the factory?
My '89 E32-3 has diaphragm style pumps mounted on the starboard side under the wastebasket bin. It looks original. The setup is pretty good although I'm hoping I never have to replace the pumps.

The flat landing visible under the pumps is the floor of the starboard lazerette. The picture was taken through the cabinet door under the sink (the white hose going to the through hull is the sink drain).

The black hose goes to a pair of strainers and from thence to the bilge and shower sump.

1675529926633.png

The strainers are mounted forward, easily accessible under the sink. For reference, the pressure water pump and accumulator is above them and the water supply manifold is below.

1675530234549.png
 

Christian Williams

E381 - Los Angeles
Senior Moderator
Blogs Author
Regarding location of the primary in-line filter, it can go on the pickup line in plain everyday sight. This is working well for me, as on a flexible hose it's easy to manipulate and clean.

in line strainer.JPG
 

Kenneth K

1985 32-3, Puget Sound
Blogs Author
My '89 E32-3 has diaphragm style pumps mounted on the starboard side under the wastebasket bin. It looks original.

Excellent photos, thanks. Aft of the pumps, do the hoses cross back to the port side of the boat, or are the discharge thru-hulls located on the stbd side (of the stern overhang)?
 

peaman

Sustaining Member
My '89 E32-3 has diaphragm style pumps mounted on the starboard side under the wastebasket bin. It looks original. The setup is pretty good although I'm hoping I never have to replace the pumps.

The flat landing visible under the pumps is the floor of the starboard lazerette. The picture was taken through the cabinet door under the sink (the white hose going to the through hull is the sink drain).

The black hose goes to a pair of strainers and from thence to the bilge and shower sump.

The strainers are mounted forward, easily accessible under the sink. For reference, the pressure water pump and accumulator is above them and the water supply manifold is below.
Brilliant pictures! That's the approximate same area as my battery charger, which will soon be removed. How would you access your pumps to inspect the diaphragm? From below the sink (VERY tight for me), or from the port quarter berth (through a near impenetrable network of hoses for me)? (In two years of ownership, I have never even touched my battery charger due to its difficult location.)

My arrangement for bilge hoses is very different from yours, but your pictures guide me to things I should look at more closely. My main bilge hose runs on the port side, unseen until it emerges in the lazarette, and the shower sump hose runs on the starboard side, but is not seen in the below-sink locker.

Thanks for this detailed description: it is very useful.
 
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