Fixes for Water in rudders

[Loren Beach]

Water in rudders can plague any boat from any builder. The subject comes up regularly here, I note.
Another Ericson owner just provided a link to Eva Hollmann's great web site, where, among many other things, she has a nice show-and-tell section about water ingress into wind surfer boards and how to remove the water. The foam core technology is certainly not identical, but near enough to our water problems, perhaps, IMHO.

And, yes, she IS the yacht designer of some fine racing and cruising boats, 30 years ago. I thought the name sounded familiar...
Small world, after all.
(The Admiral and I got to tour an FD-12, once, in Seattle.)

http://boardlady.com/water.htm

Loren

 

[footrope]

Fascinating website

Thanks for the posting, Loren. I've never heard of her, but I thoroughly enjoyed her website.

I am repairing my damaged fiberglass dinghy in the garage. It's about 14 years old and we have been keeping it in the water this summer, so it needed scraping. I knew had some gelcoat cracks, but I found a bad ding right on one of the stiffening chines. Soon after applying the sand paper, it became a hole (below the the waterline). Been doing epoxy repairs and that and two other areas needed some cloth. It is constructed with mat rather than cloth.

Anyway, I was talked out of peeling all the gelcoat and barrier-coating it (it's just a DINGHY for goodness sake!) so it should be back in the water in a couple weeks. We are storing it in the water because of it's light construction and to reduce the hassle of hoisting it onto the deck. Two coats of Trinidad SR and it should be good for a couple years.

I'm going to use my laser picture hanger leveler to mark the waterline for the painting. That should be interesting. I left the waterline stain for the time being so I wouldn't have to guess.

 

[Walter Pearson]

Seems to me that a big difference between water in our rudders and water in those boards is that the metal innards may have been compromised by the water over time. Even extracting the moisture may not be all that is needed if the welds between the post and any metal webbing has been weakened. That's what happened to mine in E27.
Walter Pearson

 

[Loren Beach]

You are right

Good point, Walter. I was kinda sorta thinking more in terms of the transom mounted rudders like you find on the E-23, 25 and 2-30.
Loren

 

[Glyn Judson]

Rudders and metal innards.

Walter, Loren and all, I wonder if our E31s and the EC36s are the only boats in the Ericson fleet with 100% bronze rod in the rudder? Our quadrants pass through an oval aperture in the transom, wrap around and bolt to our transom hung rudders which might be the reason, as opposed to rudder shafts emerging from the top of a rudder. I imagine that a stainless pipe or rod would be more sturdy than the same in bronze. Any metalergists in the audience? Happy New Year, Glyn Judson, E31 hull #55, Marina del Rey, CA

 

[Emerald]

Hi,

It's a pretty cool idea to suck out the water, but I've got to think given the volume of our critters, if they are truly saturated, it's recore time. Part of my feelings about this is rudder failure it too severe to chance, and I think I was close. As Glyn pointed out, our E31 rudders are transom hung and have all bronze hardware. In addition to the quadrant that bolts around/through the rudder, the pintel is bronze and glassed to one side of the shell. Check out this page from my rudder recore project for photos of wet destroyed foam and the pintel (links at the bottom of the page to navigate):

http://home.comcast.net/~independence31/rudder/step2.html

Note that the foam was really destroyed. It had lost all bond with the fiberglass, and was actually starting to have algae grow in it. My rudder was on it's way to breaking without notice, and I lucked out by poking at what had seemed to be a dry crack after the boat had sat about 8 weeks on the hard. Initially the rudder dripped, but then stopped. Thought it had dried out, poked up in the crack, and released more water, and the project began.

Hauled out several weeks ago, now one season later, and the repair looks as good as when splashed.


BTW, Loren, I do think this idea of evacuating moisture might have some application on our boats. I am wondering about small areas of balsa deck core delamination. Thanks for the thread





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[Bolo]

Drain Plug

This is a very interesting and timely thread for me. My E32 was hauled out a few weeks ago and while the yard had the boat up in the sling I had them pull the rudder because I'm having the cutless bearing replace along with the stuffing box to a drip less one. Plus I think I remembered seeing a bit of a bulge on one side of the rudder indicating some possible delamination. This past season was the first with our E32 (we use to have a Hunter 285) and the surveyor recommend that, if the rudder has some water in it or not, I should install a drain plug in the bottom of the rudder. Same kind that is used for a transom drain. (I've attached a photo of one from the West Marine web site.)

His point was that after the boat is hauled for the season the plug is unscrewed to allow any accumulated water to seep out while the boat was on the hard. Of course, the plug flange would have to be properly installed with the use of proper bedding and a hole dilled into the bottom of the rudder and through the center of the flange to allow water to drain out. Most important would be to make sure the plug was back in place before launching!:0305_alar

Now I always get nervous when I'm thinking about drilling any new holes in my boat below or above the water line. That includes the rudder too. The idea of a rudder drain does make some sense but is it practical? If there is water in the rudder would having a hole in the bottom be enough to ward off any future damage due to water freezing in the rudder? If you know that there is water in the rudder would it be better to drill a hole to drain the water and then plug it back up again with epoxy rather then have a drain plug that could leak itself? Your thoughts?

I already have done extensive repair on a rudder before. My old Hunter 285 had a badly damaged rudder, due to delamination, and I ended up drilling about 50 holes in it, building a clear plastic tent over the rudder and "cooking" it with a electric space heater set on low. This took about a month to do (a good winter project) and I was amazed as to how much water came out. After the rudder was dried I filled in the holes with epoxy and repair the delaminated skin areas in the proper way. Took a lot of time to do but I ended up with a better then new rudder. I didn't install a drain plug on the bottom of the rudder.

 

[Rob Hessenius]

Drain Plug

Bolo- To me it seems logical to place the drain plug for future inspections. It must be properly bedded first and foremost. But have you thought of the drag that this plug will occur underway, LOL just kidding. To me I can't see a problem with your thought. Rob Hessenius

 

[Frank Langer]

I think I would need to be convinced that the rudder was actually absorbing water on an ongoing basis (having repaired any cracks, etc. first) to add a plug. I am assuming that all fibreglass absorbs some water over time, but we don't drill holes/install plugs throughout the hull, so why do it in the rudder?

I think keeping an eye on it, perhaps drilling a drain hole once every 5 years and then filling it again before launch, sounds like a better approach to me. But I look forward to other posts, to see what people think.

Frank.

 

[Geoff Johnson]

From my observation, after having the rudder cored to check the welds, the rudder is filled with a very high density, impervious foam. Any water that seeps in around the rudder post will not migrate past the bottom of the post which ends 2/3rds of the way down the rudder. Therefore, I believe a drain will serve little purpose other than to remove water that might have gotten through the skin into voids between the skin and the core. However, they can be detected by tapping and injected with epoxy.

 

[Bolo]

I don't buy it either.

To be honest, Geoff, I don't buy the idea of putting a drain plug on the bottom of a rudder either. But I wanted to put the suggestion out there anyway since it came from "qualified" surveyor and to see what "you all" thought about his suggestion. I've never seen plugs on the bottom of any rudders and if it was a good idea wouldn't at least one boat manufacturer be doing it to their rudders?

The only real way to know if your rudder is taking on water, it seems to me, is if you see or hear (by way of sounding the rudder with a rubber hammer) any delamination. Then, as it has been suggested, I'd drill a few weep holes to see if any water comes out and then fill them later. As I'd pay attention to the post into rudder entry point, which is where aside from grounding damage, where I think most water enters the rudder core.

From my observation, after having the rudder cored to check the welds, the rudder is filled with a very high density, imperious foam. Any water that seeps in around the rudder post will not migrate past the bottom of the post which ends 2/3rds of the way down the rudder. Therefore, I believe a drain will serve little purpose other than to remove water that might have gotten through the skin into voids between the skin and the core. However, they can be detected by tapping and injected with epoxy.

 

[Emerald]

As I took apart Emerald's rudder, it became readily apparent that the high density foam was not letting the water flow out. I could get the bottom couple inches of foam to seem "dry", but as soon as I dug more than a couple inches into it, water would flow again. I don't think this thing would ever have dried completely, and even if it did, the foam was shot.

I believe the water entered my rudder from the bolt holes where the quadrant mounts. These were not caulked at all, and the foam showed clear water damage (and full saturation) from those bolt holes down. I think Ericson relied too much on the foam being too dense to absorb water, when in reality, with enough exposure, it will absorb water. What's enough exposure? Emerald was built in 1979, and I recored during the 2005/2006 winter haul out. So, 25+ years of exposure was enough to saturate and kill the foam, but no idea when it really started.




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