Fluid Collecting in the Tri-axial Force Grid

[PANorth]

Does anyone have experience with fluid leaking from the Tri-axial Force Grid? Upon buying this boat about 2 years ago we trucked it from San Diego to Bellingham, WA. Shortly after arriving in Bellingahm a dark fluid started leaking from the aft-most cross piece in the grid. It was coming from the conduit in the bottom but not from the very aft most section of the bilge. Our boat was out of the water and under a tent for all but the last month of the last two years as we completed an extensive blister repair job, so the leakage eventually dried up.

Now the boat is back in the water. We spent a couple weeks finding and fixing places where saltwater and rainwater was leaking in. There is still rainwater coming down the mast. Next we develped a leaking fuel tank (which as been the subject of another thread). Our bilge was full of fuel for a while. Now we've drained the tank and cleaned up all the visible fuel, multiple times. The strange thing is that a couple times now dark oil (I think it's oil) is appearing in the bilge. It does not seem to be coming from the engine room. While on the hard I cleaned the pan under the engine and put a "diaper" under the engine. It is still clean.

Because fuel is still working its way down I turned off the bilge pump. This is the Northwest so no bilge pump means I have to go down to bail out the bilge regularly. There is still fuel in the bilge water but there is also dark oil and some other dark substance.

Does anyone have insight into what's going on here?

 

[Christian Williams]

The grid system (TAFG) is complex and will hold fluids and release them only over time.

Hard to describe, but this video will give you a good idea.

Anatomy of the Ericson 381 Tri-Axial Force Grid (TAFG)

Video describes the grid when revealed. Attention to run of hoses. The gray tubing, the name of which I couldn't remember, is Qest. Note re drainage of TAFG cells, or gaps: The drain tubes are PVC, or occasionally aluminum. If any come loose, bilge water becomes trapped inside the hollow...

ericsonyachts.org

 

[bgary]

Yes, as Christian says, fluid will become caught in pockets and only emerge at random times.

I had one springtime first-sail, a couple of years back, when I went below to find the bilge half-full of stinky black fluid. Freaked me out, until I realized it was water that had been hibernating in some dark corner of the grid over the winter, and the movement of the boat (heeling, waves) stirred it loose and let it migrate to the centerline bilge pockets.

Since then I add bilge-cleaner (West Marine's version works fine, and smells nice) and a few gallons of fresh water to the bilge a couple of times a year before going out for a sail, and let it slosh around for the day before pumping it out.

I also sometimes do this in conjunction with a periodic flush-out of the fresh-water tanks: pumping 10-15 gallons out of the tank and into the bilge is easy to do by putting the inlet of a small portable pump into the tank's inspection port, and laying the outlet into the bilge. Add some bilge cleaner, let it slosh around and then let the bilge pump do its thing.

One side note - I don't know if all our boats have this, but my boat has a hole (approx 3/4" diameter) just forward of the mast step, which leads straight down into a hidden pocket in the grid. That's where I pour the bilge-cleaner in.... my thought (?) is that when it works its way out into the main bilge, I know it has done something in at least a few dark corners.

$.02
Bruce

 

[Tooluser]

The grid system (TAFG) is complex and will hold fluids and release them only over time.

I came by just to see how long it took Christopher to link you to his video showing the entire thing in detail. Looks like I'd have to get up pretty damn early to beat him to it.

 

[Christian Williams]

I live in front of a computer screen. It was not like this when there were typewriters.

 

[Tooluser]

You can still get them!

https://www.nytimes.com/2023/12/07/style/ernest-hemingway-typewriter-auction.html

 

[PANorth]

Thank you for the video, Christian. That was very illuminating.

There also seems to be fluid coming from the cross-pieces. Note the plugs that are, no doubt, supposed to keep the inside of the cross-pieces dry. On my boat some of those plug fittings have come out (not just the stopper). So there is water in there too.

Also the fuel that worked its way from the quarter birth tank to the bilge must have coated the TAFG voids . Unless I can get some soapy water in there it will likely be leaking out for a while. Maybe its worth pulling up the cabin sole to clean it all.

I also wonder about the issue of blisters initiating from the inside of the hull if there is always water against the fiberglass. I wonder if it would be wise to coat the voids with a barrier coat to keep the water off the fiberglass.

 

[Loren Beach]

I also wonder about the issue of blisters initiating from the inside of the hull if there is always water against the fiberglass. I wonder if it would be wise to coat the voids with a barrier coat to keep the water off the fiberglass.

The hull laminate is quite impervious to standing water, even with the usual bilge impurities mixed in, like some oil residue. Many owners overcoat the parts of the interior hull (that they can reach) with gel coat or a hard surface paint like the appropritelyl-named "Bilge Coat" paint product. This makes it much easier to clean and more difficult for mildew to form/attach. I have done that for our main bilge and the aft lazaret areas on our boat.
As for the "leavings" of a clueless prior owner (the dreaded PO) just keep improving things. (sigh.....)

If you do decide to remove the sole, you can properly reattach it with exposed screw heads and make cleanups 100% easier going forward. But, the removal can be complicated if yours was a model that the factory glued down the pieces.
There are several informative threads here regarding "glued down cabin soles" and you might want to read those over.

 

[Christian Williams]

I think you need to flood the TAFG and all its hidden compartments with detergent, multiple times. You can add new drainage plugs if necessary to speed up the circulation of cleaning water. Inject with hose, fill the bilge, pump the soapsuds out. All of us with oil or fuel in the bilge, inevitable after 40 years and probably historical, have similar issues to a lesser extent. Gradually, over time, theoretically, the TAFG will yield its contents, although every time you heel over new evidence may appear.

If the sole of our model (early '80s E38 versions) is still acceptable, by no means even consider replacing it. I am in Day 29, about 100 labor hours, into sole replacement and it is the most daunting carpentry project I've ever done.

In about two weeks I'll be finished with the job , and the video is already 35 minutes long. Watch it before starting replacement.

 

[PANorth]

If the sole of our model (early '80s E38 versions) is still acceptable, by no means even consider replacing it.

The PO replaced the sole with artificial teak-and-holly. I don't know how they attached it. Or if I can put it right back down. I'm looking forward to your video.

I'm guessing that they would have cleaned out everything that was made accessible, but who knows. At this point, given what we've been through recently, it doesn't matter.

 

[Puget sailor]

I have one of these cameras that plugs directly into an iphone. I have one on the boat, great for exploring the nether regions of all sorts of boat extremes. Can be submerged, has a light, and is easy to use. I even plan to use it for zinc and prop inspections, but it will need to be attached to something to reach under the boat when in the water.

https://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B0C4FBM6GV/ref=ppx_yo_dt_b_search_asin_title?ie=UTF8&th=1

On my boat at least there are drain holes between the various grid crossmembers, so any fluids down there can migrate all over the place. In my case when I noticed water flowing from the back of the boat into the rear most compartment, it was from the rudder post needing a grease top up via the zerc fitting. That's on a 32-3.

Other potential sources of water below:
-Deck leaks dribbling down the sides of the boat behind cabinetry etc.
-Leaking water tanks or hoses
-Leaking hoses or connections in pressurized fresh water system
-Leaking hoses or connections in bilge pump system
-I can't remember for sure, but I seem to recall the E38 may have some sort of strange deck drain that comes down into the boat too?

The color of the water may just be an indication of crud that is ever-present in the spaces of the grid we cannon access, and which is no possible to really ever get clean, so it may not be related to the water as it enters the bilge.

Another product I keep on the boat, It's a small wet or dry shop vac that snaps on top of a 5 gallon bucket. Gotta have a bucket on a boat anyway! This makes it possible to completely suck all the water out of the bilge which the pumps don't really do. It does need 120v power.

Bucket Head 5 Gallon 1.75 Peak HP Wet/Dry Shop Vacuum Powerhead with Filter Bag and Hose (compatible with 5 Gal. Homer Bucket) BH0100 - The Home Depot

The Bucket Head Wet/Dry Vac Powerhead can be used to turn a The Home Depot brand 5 gal. multi-use bucket (sold separately) into a powerful wet dry vacuum. The powerhead features a 1.75 peak horsepower

www.homedepot.com

 

[Christian Williams]

Bilge water colored tan was an indicator that my sole was delaminating. But then, I had a recent flood as result of a failed dripless thruhull.

 

[nquigley]

///

One side note - I don't know if all our boats have this, but my boat has a hole (approx 3/4" diameter) just forward of the mast step, which leads straight down into a hidden pocket in the grid. That's where I pour the bilge-cleaner in.... my thought (?) is that when it works its way out into the main bilge, I know it has done something in at least a few dark corners.

$.02
Bruce

I have the same hole - the forward-most keel bolt is in that bilge. I don't think it's connected (or, not very well) with the rest of the bilge, based on pics others have posted during cabin sole replacement. Some of the water coming down the mast ends up in that bilge pocket - I use a manual pump to suck it out via that hole from time to time. I can get at least a pint or 'relatively' clean water out of there sometimes.

 

[Kenneth K]

I consider all of the bilge pockets as interconnected, though not necessarily at all water levels. Some bilge pockets have limber holes at the very bottom, so these pockets become interconnected with as little as 1/4" of water in the bilge. Other bilge pockets have higher limber holes, or (particularly, it seems on the E38) even caps or plugs on bilge limber holes. But even these bilge pockets become interconnected when the water level reaches that of the 3" plumbing conduits that transit the bilges. Ultimately, when water is up over the floorboards, everything below is now interconnected.

If I had an E38, I don't think I'd keep too many of the bilge pockets plugged or capped off. It seem that for many leaks (PSS, thru-hulls, hull transducers, rudder post, and anchor locker drain) you'd want water to be able to transit from below the TAFG into the bilge pockets at the lowest possible level, and not to have to reach the level of the conduits or the floorboards before it finds its way to a bilge pump.

 

[bgary]

I have the same hole ...I don't think it's connected (or, not very well) with the rest of the bilge

It seems to be, at least on my boat.

I have found that if I pour bilge-cleaner down that hole and go sailing, slightly-foamy-and-clean-smelling water migrates to the main bilge.

$.02
Bruce

 

[Bolo]

Bilge water colored tan was an indicator that my sole was delaminating. But then, I had a recent flood as result of a failed dripless thruhull.

View attachment 48733

These old sole demolition photos always make my old bones shiver! When I pulled up my old glued down, delaminating, stained sole most of it came up like toothpicks.

 

[Kenneth K]

When I pulled up my old glued down, delaminating, stained sole most of it came up like toothpicks.

When I pulled up my companionway/quarterberth sole piece completely intact back in 2019, I thought I was the sole-whisperer. Turns out it only came up so easily because of a previous, I-don't-know-how-old diesel spill that must have dissolved the adhesive.


I've tried to remove other sections, but the plywood yields before the adhesive. I don't have the b*##s to pour diesel onto the rest of it.

Prying up little bits and spraying Marine De-bond under it doesn't seem to help. Thus, I've made little progress since 2019.

 

[Loren Beach]

Prying up little bits and spraying Marine De-bond under it doesn't seem to help. Thus, I've made little progress since 2019.

Well, you have survived a pandemic! That's an accomplishment denied to many...
I just had a thought about your "de-bonding" idea, Once you remove all plugs and then remove the screws, perhaps just dribble some de-bond fluid into each screw hole? Over several days, perhaps?

 

[Kenneth K]

Once you remove all plugs and then remove the screws, perhaps just dribble some de-bond fluid into each screw hole? Over several days, perhaps?

Not a bad idea probably, but at this point there are no plugs or screws. It's all glued down so I have to pry a bit up first before I can spray anything underneath.

Yeah, and here's to surviving Covid!

 

[Bolo]

Not a bad idea probably, but at this point there are no plugs or screws. It's all glued down so I have to pry a bit up first before I can spray anything underneath.

Yeah, and here's to surviving Covid!

Once you get around to replacing that old sole do yourself a favor and consider screwing down the new one. I used counter sunk brass flat heads with a square driver. It made the process of replacing the sole much easier and when the sole needs to be refinished again it’s just a matter of unscrewing the pieces and doing the work in my garage. The bright brass screw heads have turned darker (photos are when they were new so they were still bright) and now blend in much more with the teak sections of the T&H deck panels.