FX Sails

[ted_reshetiloff]

Buddy of mine sent me this link. You can get instant quotes online for Ericson sails. They actaully look pretty decent but I have always been a bit wary about buying something like this online.

http://www.fxsails.com/

 

[Seth]

Yeah, but....

Sandy Goodall is a good sailmaker, and I suspect that the finished quailty here is fairly good.

The probelm, as with all on-line or off-shore suppliers, is that the success or failure of the sail is in the CUSTOMER'S hands, not the sailmakers. The only info they really have is what all sailmakers have, the data base of rig dimensions (I, J, P, E). Some of them are accurate and some are not-depending on the quality of info supplied by the boat builder, and the consistency of the production. Catalinas, for example, vary as much as 6" on I, E and P. And these sailmakers certainly do not have the really critical dimensions such as tack setback, tack cut of (these afftec how the sail attaches to the tack fitting and mast, and 1/2" or error can create a big ugly wrinkle in the sail. Also, clew specifics-Outhaul car? No? Cutaway at the clew ring? What about the mast slides, Are they 5/8" or 3/4". How high is the mast gate? One of the biggest potential problems is mast bend-this is critical to get the luff curve right. If you assume more bend than there is, the sail will be horribly too full, and if you have more bend (and/or prebend) than they think you have, the sail will be terribly flat. Get the idea?
They will give you a form to fill out and if the sail does not fit perfectly, they are not liable-you are. These are not difficult things to measure, but getting it right consistently takes some experience. This liability transfer is one of the major reasons they can sell for less-there is no big warrabty facor to keep in mind as they do their cost analysis.

Then, there is the issue of local service-what if you need a repair, or there is a fiitting issue? A local guy will come to the boat and see for himself what is needed-and this really is much more successful with a trained eye..A local guy will come take the measurements himself/herself, and take repsonsibility for how the sail fits, and whether the shape matches the design or the mast bend, or the boat in general.

The final thing is resale value-I obviously believe a premium boat like an Ericson keeps its' value better if it has premium sails. I would ALWAYS pay more for name brand sails than I would for generics-this aspect is well known in brokerage circles-boats with offshore or oinline sails, even if they are very nice, will never bring as much resale as ones with higher end sails. And you don't take your new Porchse Cayenne to the local gas station for service-you take it to the dealer!

If I had to give up on one of these points, it would be the last one. I could live with a small, local loft-provided they have a good reputation, as long as I had the proper local support. But the combination of no-name sails, no local support, and me being responsible for the fit of the sails is not worth a 10 or even 20% savings.

Not that I have an opinion!

 

[ted_reshetiloff]

I agree with Seth 100%. In fact one of my New Years resolutions was to make an effort to do more business with local guys and esp. people I know who have businesses even if it meant paying up some. I do think there are compromises that can be made with this arguement though. The case can be made that a cruising spinnaker from these guys would probably not be a bad deal. Price is very good, quality appears pretty good, and there is a lot more room for variation in size and cut. I agree with you regarding a main or jib where there is little to no room for variation in fit, but I think with a kite you do have some room. Furthermore if we are talking about a cruising chute and not one intended for racing I think the case gets even stonger. $1400 for a new kite for the 38 using quality cloth sounds pretty sweet to me. What do you think?

 

[Seth]

Yes and No

Weeeellll,

I feel strongly both ways

It is certainly true that when it comes to how critical the exact dimensions are, then yes it is not as big a deal-and in fact, since all spinnakers are simply built as a function of I and J, you really don't have any need for a physical measurement-provided you are pretty confident of those numbers. If you are strictly a cruiser, it does not matter a bit if you are off by a little.

On the other hand, ANY loft, including the majors should be happy to modify their standard design-just tell 'em what you want-and be sure to bring up the fact that if you want a smaller reaching sail, and it ends up smaller than the standard (whatever that is), you expect the price to be adjusted accordingly.

$1400 sounds pretty sweet, but again, for purposes of resale I would pay another 10-15% for a name brand-but not much more. Run your best price by the local guy/major brand and see how close they are willing to get-you might be surprised.

Depite what the ads say about seasonal discounts, a client with a checkbook ready to go always has some room to negotiate!!

Having said all that, you are certainly correct that an off brand cruising kite will not negatively affect the resale value as much an an off brand main or headsail-hence my ambiguous position!!

adios!
S

 

[Steve Swann]

Sooo guys, what about the "value" increase to an E25? I am wanting a new suit of sails and the name brands' $5,000-$7,000 prices has me gasping. Is this value discussion really a factor for us "wee little diminutives?" I would think that my resale market being a trailerable wouldn't be as sophisticated as the Big Boys and the difference in cost between brand name and something more generic would not be a significant determining factor for my resale (not that I am going to sell my boat any time soon). Comments?

Steve
Boise, ID

 

[ted_reshetiloff]

Hard to say but from my perspective its the quality of the sail that is most important. Resale value may be important to others but by the time I am ready to sell my sails name brand or not they will most likely be more than a few years old so I don't think they will do much in the way of value positive or negative. If I were in your shoes I would certainly conside FX, but I would want to talk to some folks who have bought ther product. The online sail gig is a bit risky for the myriad of reasons listed above.

 

[Steve Swann]

Ted,

Thanks for the reply. I am landlocked here in Idaho but there is a young fella here who used to work for a sailmaker's loft. I have a message in to him at the moment hoping for a response. We have little in the way of options for sail repair, recut, etc. so If I get the measurements right, and the chance to inspect upon delivery, I think this is about as good as I can expect living here.

But hey, I could travel somewhere as I have 'Seahorse' on a trailer and it pushes a diesel Ford pickup!

 

[Seth]

resale value

Steve,

You are right in thinking that the impact on boat value from good or not so good sails diminishes with boat size, but as Ted says, quality is still very important-these are your engine-so to speak, and no matter how big or small your boat is, you should have strong, reliable, and well shaped sails.

I wonder what you mean when you say a "suit" of sails for $5-7000? My point is that if the difference between a name brand sail and an on-line sail is 15-20% or less, it is very clear that the extra money is well worth it. That is easy, but you might ask "what about if I find something on-line for 30-40% less"? Even more so-because if they are that cheap, somehing is being left out.

My rule of thumb is that if you take the list price of a name brand sail, and use 70% of that as a safe number for comparing quotes. Any prices that are much less than this should be suspect in terms of adequate quality and design. This takes into account seasonal discounts and leaves you room to compare. Cheap sails are false economy.

If you question the value of good sails, go back and read some of the posts from E-owners who have recently bought new sails-they can't believe the difference! Many had old, original "production" sails, which were extremely flat with little or no roach. Many owners find they are a whole knot faster!!
If you like, I will review your quotes for 5-7K and see what they are offering-it may help put this in perspective.

S

 

[Steve Swann]

Sail Sale

Seth,

I talked with a fellow who has an E25 in AZ who said that he bought North Sails for what looks to be 25% more than the more 'generic' lofts. One of the big price differences that I found is between "offshore" and "onshore". Once I figured out I will never sail "Seahorse" to Hawaii and beyond, prices changed a bunch. It appears that I can buy a main with my numbers and Ericson logo (just gotta have the logo!), triple reef points and a 130% hank on genoa, and a hank on storm jib all for around $2,500 from a name brand mfg., and this seems pretty reasonable.

Thanks for the advice and offer of assistance. I'll let everyone know what I buy and how well they fit.

Steve

PS I still think you need to figure out a way to come on this trip!

 

[Ernest]

Speaking from more than 50 years of sailing, one day you are going to need that sailmaker to save your 2 week vacation trip because something tore-broke-ripped-wore out-etc. If we keep buying bargains made elsewhere, who will fix your problem then? In addition, the local guys live on their reputation and are usually very skilled and quality concious. They know they're not going to compete with Pakistan on price. I also remember when you could buy boat hardware at almost anywhere. Now you have West Marine. Nuff said.

 

[Steve Swann]

Thanks, Ernie.

I think I will be going with a brand name supplier.

Unfortunately, living in Idaho, they all might as well be located in Pakistan! At least if I ship a torn sail back to the manufacturer, it will probably weigh less than sending in the Iron Genoa.

 

[Seth]

Trip? What trip?

Well said Ernie!! tru dat!

Steve-now you got it! I admit it is a minefield to navigate the sailmaker's gauntlet-offshore/inshore, blablabla....It is frustrating for sure, but you have learned some good lessons-find a guy you trust, tell him/her what you want, and work through the process until it seems right. When all is said and done, you should be able to get brand name product for no more than 20-25% more than a good local guy-and most of the time it should be around 10% (by the time you are finally comparing apples to apples)-and as you have learned, it is WORTH another 10-20% for the good stuff!

Now, back to your deal: why 3 reefs on such a small mainsail? Especially if you are not going offshore to Hawaii! Go with a normal 12-15% reduction for the first reef, then maybe 30-35% for the second-so you are down to about 45-50% total reduction at the 2nd reef. This and a strom jib is VERY little sail, and frankly once that becomes too much and you still want to sail, just take one of them down (mainsail if reaching, jib if beating). The 3rd reef is a lot of work for little or no improvement in comfort or control. Save the $! I would go with 2+2 battens instead of 4 full battens on a sail this small, and since you only have the 130% genoa, I would go 90% of PHRF max on the mainsail girths (roach). This will help you in the light stuff and downwind!

Not that I have an opinion!

Cheers,
S

 

[Steve Swann]

Thanks for taking the time to give me some additional information, Seth.

The fellow here in Boise helping me with this task worked for North Sails for 10 years. He is coming over tomorrow to get me "lined out" on what I need and I have a work sheet to get the exact measurements. It looks a bit funny to have the mast up in Idaho in the middle of winter! The worst part are slippery, and I mean really slippery, icy decks.

I will print off a copy of what you just wrote and have him look at this, too. In the end, I think I'll be pretty happy with the new rags, regardless.

I'll keep you posted.

Steve

 

[ted_reshetiloff]

IIRC just about everyone including the Name Brand guys are building their sails in third world countries. North I think uses Shrilanka (sp?) My quantum main was built in South Africa. A buddy of mine ordered an assym from these guys (FX) for his 30 foot Mount Gay. PX was $1600. Thats 1/2 the price North etc wanted. Granted FX is not using Norths proprietary software. The sails are cut and built in SE Asia like everyone else and finished at their loft in NC. I am very interested in seeing the quality of the sails. As I said I would never buy a main or jib this way due to measurement issues but a kite using Bainbridge Cloth, designed off of decent software, made the same way the big guys do at 50%??? Hmmm I agree somethings probably not right here. I cant imagine sailmakers margins are that wide. My buddy spoke with Bill James at FX and he said they were producing sails in bulk for popular boats. They were also building kites along a standard sizing that allows one kite to fit several boat. Kites have a fair amount of room IMHO. They seemed pretty open to repairs or changes as needed and were very easy to deal with. Granted I'll believe it when I see it. 5-6 weeks for delivery....

 

[Steve Swann]

The Long and Short of it

Well, it rained solidly for 2 hours midday Saturday. Other than this, it was a partly cloudy to sunny for a perfect weekend. We measured the boat for new sails in the rain, of course.

I will be sending off measurements to Cruising Direct and FX this morning to see what the $ comparisons are going to be. I'll let you folks know what the exact prices are in case someone wants to see specific data on costs.

 

[rwthomas1]

I haved watched this thread with interest. How much you spend depends on how much you have to spend and also what the boat is worth. My Catalina 22 had totalled bagged out original sails when I bought it. It made performance so poor it was not fun sailing.

I checked with the local North loft and they wanted $1600+ for just a basic main and working jib. When I balked at the price all of a sudden they had a "sale" running and knocked 20% off the price. I only paid $2400 for the boat so spending this much didn't make sense.

I ended up buying sails from Porpoise Sailing Services in Florida. http://www.porpoisesailing.com/ Basic main and working jib for $700, shipped. That was unbeatable. Are the sails North quality? Probably not. They do trim out nicely with the correct shape and the old Cat22 turned into a very neat little daysailer. Another guy at my club saw my sails and ordered a RF Genoa for his Oday 31. He is very happy with his new genoa at less than 2/3rd's the cost of a new Quantum.

As Ted pointed out, the Name Brand lofts all have offshore manufacturing now. The research I did was US made materials are shipped overseas, the sails are made and then shipped back. This avoids heavy taxes on imported sailcloth, yet utilizing the benefits of cheap labor.

So if the Name Brand lofts are doing this with most of their product then fixing/modifying locally for fit as needed, why isn't this reflected in the price? I suppose you are paying for their design expertise/knowledge but why pay "local labor" price for overseas built sails?

Regarding the "who will fix it" question. There should always be demand for local saillofts to repair/refurbish/modify sails as long as there are sailboats. The demand exists.

Obviously there exists a point where the cost of new sails and the value of the boat warrants Name Brand or locally made sails. Or when you want something custom. But there are plenty of situations where a cheap set of sails will do the trick. The boat is old and has issues that seriously de-value it. Why put expensive sails on a problem boat if you just intend on sailing it and enjoying it for what it is. The boat was cheap and you have a limited budget. The cheap sails may be the difference between sailing and not sailing. I don't think I would spend big money on brand name sails for ANY boat that was smaller that 30ft and had no intention of going offshore.

RT

 

[Seth]

There's offshore and "offshore"

Rob makes some excellent points for sure, and at the end of the day-these are personal decisions of value, for which there are no absolute answers.

Compounding the problem is this "offshore" issue..As has been posted, North ships material to Sri Lanka, the sails are built and shipped back-avoiding tax issues and high cost of labor. The sails are lower priced than the US counterparts. The price of this is some lowering of finished quality and flexibility in design (less customization for YOUR boat).

But this is not done the same way by everyone. Doyle frequently will order a "kit" from one of their offshore affiliates. The kit is really just panels cut by the computer cutter to a design sheet that was entered by email directly into the computer-so you get the benefit of the design YOU want for YOUR sail. These panels are rolled up and shipped to the US for assembly and finishing. There are some cost savings here, but not the same type of thing the as having the "built" in Sri Lanka. In fact, Doyle's offshore facilties are in Australia and NZ, so the labor is quite skilled and more expensive than you will find in a 3rd world country.

Quantum, on the other hand, has a HUGE affiliate in South Africa-which is a state of the art loft, and builds Mega and Maxi boat cruising and racing sails there for the non-US market, and for the US market, they build lower cost level cruising sails complete, mass produced production sails (Hunter, etc.) and some racing sail kits for the US. The exchange rate is what primarily helps out on price (or did when I was there), and also labor is less than in the US-but again, this is highly skilled labor making a high qaulity product.

Then there are levels. Even at the SA loft, the quality of the Hunter sails, from design and cut sheets to seaming and handwork is not the same as the cruising sails built for the recent Q customers on this site. The same loft can build sails of differing quality levels according to how they are sold and for what market.

The point being that this is a bit more complicated than it might seem and simply finding research that says the major sailmakers use offshore construction does not really tell the whole story, and the whole story is different for each sailmaker.

Is this reflected in the price? Generally. Q will give you US and SA pricing-although they may not call it as such. North wll certainly give pricing for US and Sri Lanka sails-they are entirely different products. Unfortunately for consumers, it is sometimes necessary to tease this info out of the sailmaker, since as someone correctly observed, the margins are VERY thin once discounts are applied, and sales guys are looking to maximize their commissions-hopefully while still giving the good products at fair prices.

So, while I understand Rob's points, the conclusion cannot be so general as to separate name brand, offshore, etc. The lines blur, and part of my goal is to help the members navigate this minefield so they can indeed get the best sails for their money-something that is hard to really know unless you have been through the process a few times-you can get burned no matter where you go.

Something that many owners do not realize is that if you are inexperienced, you might not even notice if, for example, the tack setback on your main is off by 2" and the wrinkle you see might not bother you enough to complain. This is what the real "offshore" cheapie guys count on-they build you a sail based on measurements you provide, so they are totally off the hook, and if the buyer does not know what to expect (and these are usually the ones who buy this stuff), they may not complain over a minor defect.

A name brand or local no name guy with a reputation to protect, will take his own dimensions, deliver the sail and MAKE SURE it is right (or they should). THEY know that knowledgeable sailors will see their product and if it is bad it won't be a secret, but if it is truly nice, that won't either.

Long winded and maybe we should kill this thread, but it is a complicated issue and there is much to take into account.

Best to all,
S

 

[rwthomas1]

Kill the thread? Why, this is how it should be. There have been many great points made here and this can only serve to inform the membership. Seth, I agree with everything you have to say, you make excellent points too. The issue is clearly quite complicated. At the very least someone that reads this will now ask plenty of pointed questions when it comes time to shop for sails. Even if you don't get the "best" sails for your money, asking the right questions will likely get you a decent product and keep you from purchasing total junk. Mission accomplished! I don't intend to cheap out on my E38 when I need new sails. The size of the boat and its intended use dictate that I select at least a moderate quality product or more likely a high end cruising sail. This has been a great thread so far. RT

 

[Seth]

OK, let's not kill it

Cool -I only said that because I felt like I was beginning to repeat myself-but you are correct-as long as folks are getting value from a thread, why not kep it alive!
Glad you are enjoying it!

Cheers,

S

 

[ted_reshetiloff]

The real test for me is going to be having a good look at the fx assym my buddy ordered. If it looks good and flies nice I will be getting one. $1,500 for a brand new well made assym for a 38 footer? Hard to pass on that. The quality and shape remain to be seen however...