Head Joker Valve Question

[gulfcoaster]

Does this rubber invention actually work? I've replaced ours and the water still won't stay down. There is no back pressure on the pump and 80% of the time, the urine backs up into the bowl. I've asked some other boat owners and they have the same problem. I think this rubber gadget would do its job if the pipe was vertical with sufficient water weight on the back side allowing the opening to close completely. Anyone have any comments on this? I even called the manufacturer. He said rotate the valve 90 degrees. I tried that and got the same results. I think he was pulling my leg. Would adding some bleach soften the rubber allowing it to close easier?

 

[Loren Beach]

The Joker: nemesis of Batman, and... you?

Does this rubber invention actually work? I've replaced ours and the water still won't stay down. There is no back pressure on the pump and 80% of the time, the urine backs up into the bowl. I've asked some other boat owners and they have the same problem. I think this rubber gadget would do its job if the pipe was vertical with sufficient water weight on the back side allowing the opening to close completely. Anyone have any comments on this? I even called the manufacturer. He said rotate the valve 90 degrees. I tried that and got the same results. I think he was pulling my leg. Would adding some bleach soften the rubber allowing it to close easier?

From casual observation, by the late 80's Ericson was installing the Raritan PH2 head in most boats. It seems to be designed/built very well. As for that rubber "back flow preventer"... ours will also allow a little bit of water back into the bowl once in a while. This is due to a minuscule bit of tp catching in it and not allowing the little flapper to fully close. When this happens, several more vigorous flushes of water through and out of the exit piping will cure the problem.

Often it's a simple as someone trying to minimize the amount of flushing to clear out the bowl -- sometimes out of concern about capacity of the holding tank, or just a guest being a bit self conscious about making all that wheezing pumping noise a few feet from the rest of the crew in the cabin. (Sigh... as though there's a shred of real privacy on any boat under 40 feet anyway. )

If you boat in an area with lots of seaweed being sucked into the bowl during pumping, a little piece of weed would cause the same problem on the outflow side.
Some boaters have put a longer raised loop in that exit hose with a vented loop at the top. That way very little water can ever drain back into the bowl even if the joker is not working well. Of course then you have an additional place for "stuff" to clog a small valve and cause other problems.

Note that the waste hose to the holding tank or overboard valve needs to have zero waste inside it after you have finished all of your ablutions. If you actually have waste routinely backing up into the toilet, a review of the head piping scheme would be in order as well. (IMHO)

Back a few years, when I reformatted out whole head setup, I put in a new tank with all top-mounted gozinta's and gozouta's with dip tubes for the exits. This lets the entry hose always be free of waste after a few pumps to clear it out.

In general, if you have a good quality toilet and a new joker valve, it might be good to have a quick review of "proper flushing procedure" with the crew.

Happy Flushing,
Loren

 

[Tom Metzger]

Here is what Practical Sailor says about Joker valves.

http://www.practical-sailor.com/issues/37_31/features/Joker-Valves-for-Marine-Heads_11065-1.html

Assuming that you have a Raritan PHII the same vintage as mine in my '87 E-34, I found that the flange on the output elbow bowed over the years and didn't properly constrain the joker valve allowing leakage. Replacing the flange solved the problem.

Disclaimer: I did this last summer so there is not much history.

I talked to Raritan about the problem and they indicated the warping could be on either side of the flange. I checked it and found it to be all in the elbow flange.

The good news is that they, Raritan 1222AW, are available at lots of chandleries for $10 - 20.

 

[Christian Williams]

Peggy Hall, the authority on marine heads, says that joker valves have the sole function of "preventing backflow from FLO0DING (and the operative word is 'flood'; even a brand new joker valve won't prevent seepage)" [emphasis hers, "Get Rid of Boat Odors" p39].

But there shouldn't be urine. Seepage should be water, if you pump enough through after use. Nobody wants to fill the holding tank, but still, enough water to clear the lines is necessary.

If waste is backing up, something else is wrong.

 

[Glyn Judson]

Joker valve.

Guys, Are all joker valves created the same? Has anyone ever compared the Wilcox Crittenden one to other brands to the to see if they're the made alike? I use a W/C Skipper II onboard and spare parts are getting hard, if not impossible to find. Complete rebuild kits can still be had but at a hefty price to pay for just one joker valve. By the way, is it properly referred to as a Joker valve or Choker valve? I see references to it both ways when Googled. Glyn

 

[Christian Williams]

Hall says in the book I just consulted that she doesn't know where the name came from.

I go with "because it looks like a joker's hat."

 

[gulfcoaster]

Groco head

I t/w the manufacturer at Groco. The part I replaced is H-27-a. A joker valve. He said the only part which restricts fluid from returning to the bowl is this part. My outside water thru-hull is closed. The urine is pumped directly to the holding tank. The back pressure from the fluid after it is passed closes the valve. Most of the time it doesn't work. The water level is about an inch over the actual narrow part of the bowl. All these years have passed and they can't even get the shitter right!

 

[Tom Metzger]

Have you checked to make sure your vent is clear? Any positive pressure in the tank will push liquid back into the toilet.

 

[Glyn Judson]

Maybe suck on the vent hose to clear any obstructions? Nah. Glyn

 

[Pat O'Connell]

Joker Valves

Hi Respected Sailors
We get about a season (4) months out of a Joker Valve in our WC Head. Put in a Groco Joker valve last year. We'll see how that goes. The Groco did seem to work better last year than previous valves. Lets see... in 34 years I bet we have spent $200 on Joker Valves??
Best Regards
Pat O'Connell
1981 E 28+

 

[Rick R.]

We put a brand new Raritans PH-II with all new hoses and a new holding tank in about two years ago. The joker valve only lasted one year before needing replaced.

 

[GrandpaSteve]

Groco HF works fine

We put a brand new Raritans PH-II with all new hoses and a new holding tank in about two years ago. The joker valve only lasted one year before needing replaced.

My Groco HF works fine. I don't think the joker valve lets anything back, it is just that the pump cannot pump the passage between the bowl and pump the bone dry.

I have been happy with this head for the three seasons since I installed it, I did replace the joker valve last year, but only because Peggy Hall says to do it every year and I had not done it yet.

 

[u079721]

Well this is getting into the TMI region a bit, but we too had issues with leaking into the bowl with our PHII and joker valve without using way too much water to flush. Then we tried following the suggestion of never putting any TP down the head, and that completely solved the issue. Of course you do have to then have a separate receptacle to store the used TP, which then has to be transferred to the trash. But given that we were trying to make our 25 gallon holding take last the two of us for 10 days on the Great Lakes, it was well worth the effort.

 

[GrandpaSteve]

Well this is getting into the TMI region a bit, but we too had issues with leaking into the bowl with our PHII and joker valve without using way too much water to flush. Then we tried following the suggestion of never putting any TP down the head, and that completely solved the issue. Of course you do have to then have a separate receptacle to store the used TP, which then has to be transferred to the trash. But given that we were trying to make our 25 gallon holding take last the two of us for 10 days on the Great Lakes, it was well worth the effort.

We also have a no paper down the head rule; which is strictly followed, except when it is not. (grand kids try their best).

 

[Rick R.]

We also have a no paper down the head rule; which is strictly followed, except when it is not. (grand kids try their best).

No TP down our head either.

 

[Tom Metzger]

No TP down our head either.

Maybe with TP the joker would last two years.

I have never heard of a problem when using the proper type of TP in a reasonable amount. Some people, of course, could clog Niagara Falls.

Peggy Hall, The Head Mistress, says:

"Septic tank safe doesn't necessarily mean it will break down fast enough to keep from clogging up a holding tank discharge fitting. If you're in doubt about whether a toilet paper is ok to use aboard, tear off a sheet and put it in glass of water overnight. If it's still an intact--or mostly intact--sheet in the morning, keep looking. But if the water is milky and all you see is "snow" when you stir it, it's the same thing as high priced "marine" toilet paper. Two ply or single, same test applies.However, marine toilets cannot handle large wads of ANY toilet paper. It must be used sparingly, and occasionally "intermediate flushes" may be called for to keep from overloading the bowl with waste OR paper...or both."


Rick - Could joker life be affected by the quality of the effluent? :0

 

[Rick R.]

Could joker life be affected by the quality of the effluent? :0

Is there a difference in quality? I think the affluent's effluent is still considered the same by the Federal Clean Water Act.:0