Headsail size / selection E34-2

[N.A.]

Hello-

I am considering pulling the roller-furling off my boat* and trying to decide on hank-on jib sizes. Advice appreciated.

My use: sailing a boat with rig/hull similar to a 34-2 on central SF Bay, all year (summer 20-25 kt standard; winter 5-15 kt more common. I tend not to go out in less than 5 kt, though maybe your advice will change that. Would like eventually to do a Hawaii trip. I singlehand the bulk of the time. I find my current 100% roller-furling jib is fine up to around 20+, at which point I tend to head (downwind) home. It seems small in < 8 kts, and < 10 downwind. In higher wind I have been dropping the main and sailing under 100% jib alone (never furl, except all the way); this will change with the imminent advent of a new main with better (3) reefing options. Boat has a shoal keel, so more leeway/probably a bit less stiff than the usual Ericsons.

Advice from my sailmaker is to get a 90% and 135% to start, and maybe at some point a drifter out of lighter/cheaper material. Would get a small storm jib too if going to Hawaii, but that is not the immediate issue. I was thinking of getting only two jibs, since changing them all the time is a hassle and I am more likely to sail with a slightly off-size jib and try to compensate with trim rather than (like a racer) swap all the time.

I think I remember Christian used a 125% to Hawaii (?); unsure if I would be sorry with 135%. My (very limited) experience offshore of the bay area is that wind can be surprisingly low sometimes (despite the gale at the gate), but 150% sounds like it would just be too big, and a hassle to handle singlehanded. 90% seems like it might be a nice match with a reefed main at the ~ 25-ish summer windspeeds, but I'm used to 100% which has not been too bad.

Any advice appreciated.


* Roller-furling (or not) is a separate discussion (that likely involves strong opinions ; I would like to keep this thread about the sails, rather than the furling, though all comments from this site have been useful and appreciated so don't feel overly constrained.

PS: Yes, I searched this topic; most relevant I saw is below for any future searchers:

Head Sail Size for 1989 E 38-200

My original equipment North Sail head sail is starting to require patching and I am eventually looking at the purchase of a new head sail.I currently have a roller furled 105.I sail shorthanded alot and race occasionally again with limited crew.I would be interested in opinions regarding head...

ericsonyachts.org

 

[Christian Williams]

You won't be sorry with a 135, although the sailcloth won't be as heavy-duty as a 120 can be.

What you will be sorry about, especially singlehanded, is giving up roller furling, which is the greatest advance in cruising-boat sailing.

 

[Stuphoto]

Please don't take this as advice. I don't even consider myself as a newbie yet.
However a friend of mine, who grew up around sailboats recently bought new sails and didn't order a jib.
Just a 150% genoa if I remember correctly.

Being new to the game I had to ask why, and he told me the roller furling he also bought allows him to spool it out only as much as he wants.
Eliminating the need for so many sails.

Personally I would love to see a good discussion about roller furlings here.

 

[Christian Williams]

Roller furling is complex equipment and of course can fail or break. Old ones need attention and monitoring. The argument, if there is one, for hanked-on sails today, is that they're simple and foolproof.

Roller furling allows the size of the foresail to be changed effortlessly in all conditions. The same sail can function as a storm sail in a gale, and also as a medium -sized genoa of 110-130 overlap. (a 150 is necessarily of light cloth, since it is for very light air. It will be damaged if furled small and flown in heavy air, so not a great choice as "one foresail" for San Francisco Bay). A medium-sized genny can be supplemented by an asymetrical spinnaker for off the wind, and is better at that than a huge genoa jib. Asyms are the trend today.

The point of roller furling headsail is that one sail does it all. And it stores rolled up on the forestay, ready to deploy at will. That's a convenience in daysailing as well as offshore.

Hanked-on foresails come in many sizes, and previously cruising boats carried three. A jib, a genny and a drifter. They are stored in large sailbags--often stuffed, because it's hard to fold them up fancy-like on the foredeck--and they take up considerable cabin space. And when they're wet, which is often, they make everything belowdecks wet.

It can be a challenge to change hanked-on headsails as the wind comes up. Often it is done on a plunging bow while weightless half the time. The old, larger sail, must be doused and bagged. The new sail hanked on and hoisted. That was once considered a basic crew job. Now many crews have never done it.

Roller furlers are expensive and it's a yes or no decision, since hanked sails don;t work on a furler.

But if it helps the decision, it's very hard to sell a boat that doesn't have a roller furling jib.

 

[Stuphoto]

Thank you Chrstian,
That is pretty much what my friend with the new sails said.

When I mentioned I would eventually like one to my boats previous owner he made it clear that he doesn't like them.

My personal feeling is I like light and simple boats, and cars. And if I am going to add weight I would rather keep it as low as possible.
However at the same time I look at a furling system as both a safety feature and as a system that will allow me to enjoy sailing more on my own plus with other newbies.
Since it's now my boat, I can pretty much do whatever I want with her.

So my plan is to look for a good used system this year yet still enjoy my boat every opportunity I have in the meantime.

I will be mainly sailing with experienced people this year, so I am not too worried about switching over yet.

 

[Christian Williams]

I think for a 25-footer hanks are fine. Dividends get paid on larger boats.

 

[Teranodon]

Hello-

I am considering pulling the roller-furling off my boat* and trying to decide on hank-on jib sizes. Advice appreciated.

We have the same boat, and I sailed for many years on SF Bay. Unless you are a serious balls-to-the wall racer, I would definitely go with a furling jib. As Christian said, changing headsails can be very nervewracking, especially since the decision to downsize is usually made after the boat is overpowered. If you have a big, experienced crew - fine; otherwise, a pull on the furling line is what you want. Still there is that thing they say: a furling jib is guaranteed to have the wrong shape under all conditions. When you see a boat moving beautifully to windward, with a perfect blade of a jib, you know there is no furler. But consider this: if you go out on SF Bay, chances are that you will be going upwind and down, not necessarily in that order. And for downwind work, you'll probably want the big jib. So do yourself a favor.

 

[Stuphoto]

I think for a 25-footer hanks are fine. Dividends get paid on larger boats.

I found an older system earlier today almost being given away and my friend with the new sails ( my advisor ) said it should be good for my boat.

So I couldn't resist asking if shipping is available.
If it is I am buying it tomorrow.

My friend told me I would have to get my sails modified, but no big deal. He is sending his new genoa in to have modified to fit his system, so I will get mine done at the same time.
Plus probably get a new mainsail at the same time.

I don't know why I am modifying my boat before even sailing her, but that seems to be the story of my life.

Edited to add
We get sudden nasty wind storms here called Qualicum winds.
YouTube has a couple videos on them, which I don't have access to at the moment.

They have taken out several boats with skilled captains.

Which is a reason I look at a roller furler as a safety feature.
If I was in a protected region I may think about them differently.

 

[Loren Beach]

Some thoughts on furlers.
We used hank-on headsails on our prior 26 foot boat for a decade, and most of the time used the 110%, rather than the 150. Main reason was that we could get away with it because it was a fast and easily-driven hull. Changing headsails was really more of a dockside maneuver.
I did have to add a downhaul line, led back to the cockpit, to make the jib stay down on a windy day when lowering it preparatory to returning to the dock. So, there are some complications even with 'hanks'. We were successful racing and have a lot of dusty trophies stored away, somewhere...
We did not win because of a hanked-on jib, but because I had an excellent crew. And because I listened to them for driving and tactics advice.
Oh, most Definitely.

Yeah, there were nano knots to be theoretically gained with little sail rigging changes like that, but nothing anywhere near going the correct way at any one mark rounding.
When we bought the Olson, it came with a "Tuff Luff" head foil system. It took us only minutes to figure out that I or the Admiral were not going to be schlepping a headsail in a bag up to the foredeck for every sail. Heck the rolled up sail in a bag was well over 3 feet tall. And heavy.
We had a Harken furler installed in '95. When it failed just a couple years ago, and our rigger pointed out that parts were getting hard to come by for a Mk 2, we changed up to a new Mk 4. It was time (past time) for a new head stay anyhow.

Big rigs on these 34 foot boats, designed for real sail power. The Ericson's and Olson's were designed for sailing and not for being dockside condo's. These are true "performance sailing" boats.

Shape. Any well-designed sail, no matter how it is attached will have a perfect shape when fully hoisted and adjusted well. When you roll in the furler a ways, shape will still be good... IF the rig is adjusted properly, and the sail is designed properly. And, when rolled in a lot shape will suffer, but the safety tradeoffs are mucho well worth it. IMHO.

About buying a used furler. If you are handy with tools, and enjoy the occasional searching for parts on the 'net or at second hand marine stores, this can work. When our last furler was taken down the rigger said he was cutting it up for metal recycling because it was costly and time consuming to find parts for it. At over 20 years, many of the parts are no longer stocked or produced. So, yup, there are always used furlers for sale, but even free, they can be expensive for your time and money.

Further, modifying a used sail to furling is not cheap when all of the mods to the whole luff are factored in. It's more than just adding a foil to the sail. There are several good schemes for adding a 'luff pad' and all take time and sewing. Better to have the sail designed for that from the git-go.

Related Subject: finding a bargain sail...... all lofts, mostly the large ones, will have a few sails stored away that are for sale for 40 cents on the dollar. Reason is that there once was a disagreement with a buyer over the size or some other construction detail and the loft had to build a replacement. In the short term they had to eat the sail. North, UK, you-name-it.... ask them all.
Know your exact size needs. Some recutting might be needed, but it will still typically be a bargain. A friend of mind found a new main for his 34 footer, and even with a modest recut, he got a fabulous new sail for a bargain price. IIRC, the old glue pattern did not even show where the emblem was changed.

Finally, once we used a furler on our 34 footer, we were instantly sorry we had never converted the previous boat to a furler.
Aside: same sentiment about the rod vang that came with the Olson... !

Per the 'sailboat data' site, our boat is rated at 546 sq. feet of sail, and the E-34(2) at 595. That's a lot of sail and yet another reason to consider a furler.

 

[Stuphoto]

Thank you Loren,

I sent UK on Vancouver Island an email about a new mainsail the other day.
So I will talk to them about it at the same time.

They are the closest sailmaker to my boat, and I love to shop local.

It would be nice starting out with all new sails, even though it's doubling the value of my boat.

 

[Frank Langer]

Stuphoto,
I had a new headsail and mainsail made on site at the UK loft in Sidney, BC. They insisted on coming to my boat in Nanaimo (2 hour drive) to take measurements cause they wanted to get it right, then designed and built the sails taking into account my specific requests. The service there is great and the sails are performing well. You can tell them I recommended them.
Frank

 

[Stuphoto]

Thank you Frank,
That helps with my decision.

I am just a day sail away from you on Hornby.

If it works out that way I should get them to measure it up while it's still in the Comox harbour.

 

[patrscoe]

Same, my sailboat came with a Tuff Luff. I used it for a half a season and although it performed well in races, it was more difficult to change sails than a hank on and before the season ended, I purchased a new furler. Racing, you get a credit to your PHRF for using a furler but you cannot change it during the race.

I don't agree that one sail on a furler fits all. Putting a #1 on your furler and thinking you can furl it down to a #3 is not reasonable, from sail material stress to sail shape and trim. It will also push your draft back in your sail and you will heal more. But if you are going out for the weekend and forecast is for high winds, you can change your headsail at the dock to a smaller headsail, more managable and will provide a better sail for the current conditions.

 

[Christian Williams]

In my experience a foresail of moderate size, designed to set partially furled and with a padded luff for that purpose, provides excellent shape with little compromise.

Old sails of any kind, of course, are usually junk.

 

[Loren Beach]

Stuphoto,
I had a new headsail and mainsail made on site at the UK loft in Sidney, BC. They insisted on coming to my boat in Nanaimo (2 hour drive) to take measurements cause they wanted to get it right, then designed and built the sails taking into account my specific requests. The service there is great and the sails are performing well. You can tell them I recommended them.
Frank

I have previously had sails and more recently our "Lazy Cradle" built at that loft, right after they build the new building. Great people.

 

[Teranodon]

Another reason to have furling: there are times when you will be going downwind with a big jib set, and you need to gybe, but the wind has kicked up and it makes you nervous. Maybe you are singlehanding. Anyway, with a furler, you can furl, gybe, reset, no worries.

 

[G Kiba]

Hello-

I am considering pulling the roller-furling off my boat* and trying to decide on hank-on jib sizes. Advice appreciated.

My use: sailing a boat with rig/hull similar to a 34-2 on central SF Bay, all year (summer 20-25 kt standard; winter 5-15 kt more common. I tend not to go out in less than 5 kt, though maybe your advice will change that. Would like eventually to do a Hawaii trip. I singlehand the bulk of the time. I find my current 100% roller-furling jib is fine up to around 20+, at which point I tend to head (downwind) home. It seems small in < 8 kts, and < 10 downwind. In higher wind I have been dropping the main and sailing under 100% jib alone (never furl, except all the way); this will change with the imminent advent of a new main with better (3) reefing options. Boat has a shoal keel, so more leeway/probably a bit less stiff than the usual Ericsons.

Advice from my sailmaker is to get a 90% and 135% to start, and maybe at some point a drifter out of lighter/cheaper material. Would get a small storm jib too if going to Hawaii, but that is not the immediate issue. I was thinking of getting only two jibs, since changing them all the time is a hassle and I am more likely to sail with a slightly off-size jib and try to compensate with trim rather than (like a racer) swap all the time.

I think I remember Christian used a 125% to Hawaii (?); unsure if I would be sorry with 135%. My (very limited) experience offshore of the bay area is that wind can be surprisingly low sometimes (despite the gale at the gate), but 150% sounds like it would just be too big, and a hassle to handle singlehanded. 90% seems like it might be a nice match with a reefed main at the ~ 25-ish summer windspeeds, but I'm used to 100% which has not been too bad.

Any advice appreciated.


* Roller-furling (or not) is a separate discussion (that likely involves strong opinions ; I would like to keep this thread about the sails, rather than the furling, though all comments from this site have been useful and appreciated so don't feel overly constrained.

PS: Yes, I searched this topic; most relevant I saw is below for any future searchers:

Head Sail Size for 1989 E 38-200

My original equipment North Sail head sail is starting to require patching and I am eventually looking at the purchase of a new head sail.I currently have a roller furled 105.I sail shorthanded alot and race occasionally again with limited crew.I would be interested in opinions regarding head...

ericsonyachts.org

I

I would go with your sail maker's recommendation (plus or minus 5-10%) . You are in the Bay Area (like me) I have found there are two distinct seasons for wind. Winter (you want a larger jib) and Summer (small jib). Winter will be starting to change to Summer somewhere March/April. So get ready! For sailing in lighter winds (downwind) you should consider an asymmetrical as it's easier to singlehand with an autopilot downwind. Much more efficient than a jib. Get in contact with members of the SSS (Singlehanded Sailing Society). It's a great organization with lots of experienced good sailors in the bay and to Hawaii. Plus they are quite friendly. They put on the Three Bridge Fiasco this weekend with over 300 boats. All were double and singlehanded. Was a super fun event!

 

[N.A.]

Thanks folks!

Assuming I get separate hank-on jibs,

--> any views (given SF bay and offshore, 34-2 rig) re:
- 90 vs 100 %
- 125 vs 135%
- More information re: the asymmetrical (G Kiba? Would it make sense to just stick with the 100% I have for now, and use an asymmetrical until I make more decisions, or should one only get an asymmetrical after one has a 125%-135% ?)

Sailmaker suggests 90 and 135; they themselves are a SSS/SS Transpac person and they themselves use hank-on on their own boat (though they are far to wise to "recommend" whether I switch out my roller furling).

I had asked them re: an asymmetrical/drifter but they were less pro re: that. It did sound good to me; lighter and so easy to raise (no hank-on...). I could drop my 100% (or whatever) and raise an asymmetrical without much difficulty at all. I used a rig like that on a Catalina 36 once and it seemed very nice, which is where I got the idea.

--> Any comments about what specifically I ask the sailmaker for in that regard (re: asymmetrical) would be welcome.

I can (eventually will) join/post at the SSS (funny; the place I sailed in WA state had the same initials), but am posting here in large part because I am specifically curious about what to get for the Ericson, which seems to handle differently (and frankly better) than e.g. the Catalinas.

============
Roller furling vs hank-on:

A boat at my dock uses hank-on jibs and stores them still hanked on, with a canvas cover like a mainsail cover that goes around them, clewed-up off the deck. It looks as simple as roller furling to me. I rarely furl except all the way anyway -- on pervious boats (mainly Catalinas) have not liked the upwind performance with the partly-furled sail. I tend to feather/pinch, shift fairleads to spill air up high, etc instead.

I agree a hank-on 130 will be big, and changing it solo on the water will not be easy. However, changing any roller-furlling headsail on the water appears virtually impossible to me. I would expect to change not that often. And:

My experience with roller furling is it jams. It will not work with a big headsail unless the jib is blanketed by the full main... if that is hard for you, and conditions deteriorating, world of hurt. Even with a 100%, furling mine (Harken Mk IV v 1 furler) is not easy and leaves one with the distinct impression it is only a matter of time before something in that furler pops, leaving you in 20+ kts unable to furl. Christian, if I remember the videos/book, has had roller furler line failures on 2 of 3 Hawaii trips -- did I remember right? -- luckily never in dire circumstances. I've had overrides, leaving me struggling with the mechanism with the jib halfway furled. Some professional (forget who) pointed out that the vast bulk of equipment-forced retirements from the Volvo races were due to roller furling failures, so it's not just small fry like me.

Aside from convenience (which I am not trying to understate), the big arguments for roller furling seem to be 1) downwind in scary-ish conditions, one can furl without going forward (either to jibe, or reduce sail). That sounds great; my worry is that the thing will fail right when I need it most; and 2) resale... agree with Christian. Choices have to be made...

The one solution to the above would be to add a solent/removable cutter stay, but on my (similar to 34-2) it is unclear how to do that: foreward hatch and anchor locker inconveniently placed, and completely unclear to me what I'd anchor it to inside re: the hull. Is all that bow compartmentalization (mainly water tank) actually bonded to the hull, or is it just some line I could not depend on to hold the force of a solent stay? Plus unsure if it would be OK due to lack of running backstays (though I'd be inclined to run it non-parallel to the forestay so it was almost a full , rather than fractional rig, and so well supported by the backstay.) Anyway, for all the reasons people get cutter rigs, this would potentially be a cake-and-eat-it option.
--> Opinions on adding a solent stay very welcome. (Though perhaps that should be a separate post at a later time).

And thanks again; I learn a ton from these forums, and appreciate it a lot.

 

[goldenstate]

I picture myself with a hanked-on 125 jib touching 5kts on a beam reach in 8kts of wind between Alcatraz and Treasure Island. Like a knife through butter. Beauty.

Then I get a gust and the wind steps up to 12kts. She heels over more and I relax the main and traveler to stay in control and ease the weather helm. It's not ideal but what I need to do to stay in control.

Then we bump up to 15kts, gusting to 18. The Larkspur ferry is somewhere in my peripheral vision and there's a container ship bound for the Pearl River delta coming out of Oakland somewhere behind me. The boat wants to round up. The only way for me to get control is to reduce the canvas area I have out.

Do I slab reef the main? That's a 5 minute process at best with hands off the wheel. My wheel pilot is over-powered. The wind vane is useless when the boat is mis-trimmed this much. Holy crap, I need to bring down that beautiful new $5,000 jib I just bought.

I bring the nose up into the wind I jump away from the wheel and lower the jib halyard halfway. Now the sail is flogging and flapping like a bronco on the foredeck. Whoops! The boat turns and now half the sail is out over the lifelines. I'm shrimping my new beautiful genoa. I need to run up on the foredeck and pull it back on board. I run up to do that. Now the sail is on deck. I turn back to get to cockpit the halyard to release the rest of the sail. I notice the Larkspur Ferry is turning to avoid me.

I'm halfway back to the shrouds when the boat jacks around and gybes on me. Smack goes the slackened main. Good thing it didn't clock me. I scramble under the flapping boom and I get back to the jib halyard and lower it the rest of the way. The sail zooms down, but the boat has turned and again my new Genoa is sucked out into the water like a sea anchor. I need to make another trip to the foredeck to haul the heavy SOB back on board.

Oh crap, where was that container ship again?

vs.

Bring the boat up within 10 degrees of the wind, keep light tension on the laze jib sheet. Pull evenly on the furler, reduce the sail area by 50%.

De power the boat enough to get the first reef in the main, do that, wave to the commuters on the ferry.

 

[goldenstate]

I bought a second-hand "cruising" asym last year and flew it this weekend on an overnight trip down the coast to Half Moon Bay with another sailor on board. It was easy to manage with two of us, but is trickier to try to raise and douse solo.

Worked well, even on a 90 degree beam reach,

It's probably smaller than what a sail loft would recommend for my 32-200, but it worked great. In my experience I would rather have a manageable smaller sail than the opposite.



At purchase from Minney's, in case the dimensions help to triangulate your shopping ideas:

S 37' 32'10" 20' 6" .75 OZ CRUSING SPINNAKER DOYLE
XLNT 9+ APPEARS IN NEW CONDITION-RED-WHITE BLUE WITH NEW SOCK