intermittant starting problem

[HerbertFriedman]

Tried to start my Universal M25xp yesterday. I have three new batteries, 2 grp 27 for house and 1 grp24 starting. Turned on key, got usual oil light and buzzer indication, pushed glow plug and the electrical power dumped. Oil light and buzzer went out, no action from starter button. I cycled the battery switch from ON to OFF and then back to ON, turned key on, oil light and buzzer came back on, but again power dumped when I pushed glow switch. Finally switched battery switch to "all" combining house and starting batteries, and engine started in normal way. Back at the dock, checked all batteries for normal voltage so I dont think starting battery was low. Started engine in normal way (starting battery alone) several times, no problem.

I am about to order new glow plug switch and new glow plugs and I will make the wiring upgrade to disconnect start and glow switches but anybody have similar problems, suggestions, etc.

 

[paul culver]

While you're at it check the cable terminals at battery and engine ends. Doesn't take much gunk to impede the electrons. Some people apply a conductive paste after cleaning the terminals.

Paul
E29 "Bear"

 

[HerbertFriedman]

will do for sure. But what I dont understand is after I pushed the glow plug button and the power dumped, why did recycling the battery switch from on to off and back on again, restore the power to the starting circuit. There was no blown fuse or else recycling the battery switch would have done nothing, recycling the battery switch is a usual fix for computers, not 25 year old electrical circuits.

 

[Christian Williams]

If you're considering wiring upgrades, these blog entries might be of interest:

http://www.ericsonyachts.org/infoex...5-Engine-Wiring-Upgrade-Part-1-Cockpit-Gauges

I doubt it's the glow plugs. May simply be the ignition key switch.

 

[Stu Jackson]

Herbert,

Have you checked the wiring harness trailer connectors? Usually called the engine wiring harness upgrade?

Have you checked your main engine ground connection?

 

[HerbertFriedman]

Did a whole bunch of diagnostic checks today but sadly still confused. Turns out the PO or someone else must have rewired the glo plug switch and the start button because when I do have power to the instrument panel, I can start the engine by just turning on the key and pushing the start button.

When the problem arises, it appears that all the power to the instrument panel disappears, I have a blower switch on the instrument the panel and that is dead also, regardless of the key switch. So logically, the problem appears to be the main battery switch, that switch is a Blue Sea dual circuit switch with OFF, ON and COMBINE BATTERIES. In the ON position, the starting battery is connected to the starter (with a heavy cable) and the house batteries are connect to the DC panel, separately, must be two switches operated by the single knob. It appears that the DC panel is OK when the problem occurs. And if I turn to COMBINE, there is always power to the instrument panel and no problems, so logically, it could be the switch connecting the starter battery to the starter, right?

Impulsively, I removed the battery switch to test it, dont ask how many hours it took and skinned knuckles, Ericsons are great boats but the electrical systems are designed by sadists!. What I should have done is get the fault condition to occur (happens now quite often) and see if I get 12V at the starter, then I could have ruled out the switch and the problem is somewhere between the starter post and the instrument panel. But I was not thinking clearly and the switch is out.

Since this is an intermittent problem, rather than put the old battery switch, I have bought another, will reassemble tomorrow and continue checking.

Any suggestions by mavens out there is greatly appreciated. Let you know soon how I make out.

 

[Macgyro]

Expert Advice from a Novice

Don't take this to the bank, but could there be a short in system somewhere upstream of the glowplug switch? I'm not really sure how to check it, but it sounds like the battery is pumping out as much juice as possible when you press the switch. It could be the glowplug + side wiring touching a grounded item, corrosion bridging a gap, etc. If someone knows how to measure the amperage going to the glowplug and compare that to how much should be going to it, you might be able to narrow it down. You may have to replace a bad glowplug or simply rotate a wire end away from a grounded surface.

I just found out today in my nest of wires, that the battery master switch was powering the entire house system regardless of switch position. It doesn't take much for those electrons to find a path back to the battery.

Good Luck!
(My experience in this is less than nothing, and I've never even seen a diesel engine so please make sure to get someone else's opinion too!)

 

[HerbertFriedman]

this whole business is getting stranger and stranger. One thing seems clear. When I have this problem with the battery switch in the ON position, often there is no power to the instrument panel as evidenced by the blower not coming on. Sometimes, the blower goes on and I can turn the key on but when I hit the glo plug switch, the whole instrument panel goes dead. BUT when I switch to the COMBINE BATTERY position, I can start the engine and the blower works fine. So if there were a problem with the wiring to the instrument panel AFTER the switch, why would that problem occur in the COMBINE position?? Also, if there were a problem with the glo plugs, why would that problem not show up with the house bank connected as in the COMBINE position. OK there is more umph behind two house batteries than one starting battery but both should be able to supply lots of juice.

I have checked all the grounds and they appear OK.

Logically (and logic may not make it to boats), the problem should be with the ON position of the switch. I have a new switch on order although the old switch is only 4 months old, as long as I am spending the time and sweat re-installing the switch, might as well put a new one in. However, I did check the continuity of the switch (out of the circuit so with no load) and 10 out of 10 times, I had a dead short across the switch when I switched back and forth between OFF and ON.

After I install the new switch, and if the problem persists, the check will be to see if I get 12 on the starter terminal, which is where the battery switch is supposed to put voltage in the ON position. If I get no voltage there problem solved. let you know, any help is welcome.

 

[Tom Metzger]

Life would be so much easier and less expensive if you guys would buy a volt-ohm meter. Harbor Freight sells one for $6

Herbert - You have a bad connection or switch in either the supply to the engine panel or (less likely) the battery ground as everyone has said. Finding it with a meter would very likely save you from buying a switch that may be the problem, but likely is not.

 

[HerbertFriedman]

Tom, I have a good digital meter but I am afraid the problem may be more complicated. For example, sometimes the problem is that I put the battery switch in the ON position, everything looks OK but then I push the glo button and the system dies. All voltage disappears from the instrument panel, like I blew a fuse or tripped a circuit breaker. But that does not make sense, because when I turn the switch to the COMBINE position, all is OK, is a puzzlement as the King (King and I) would say.

It may be a switch problem that has to do with a load being put on the switch. Before I push the button, I am sure there is voltage to the switch but then when I push the button and draw some current, something opens up. Testing with a standard voltmeter tests with little current being drawn so under no load conditions the switch (which ever it is) is OK, but try to pull current and it opens up. Hard to find with a meter, the only easy way I know to check this condition (although not cheap) is to replace the switch one by one until you find the fault. Do you agree, do you have a procedure for such a condition?

 

[Ccaptain]

Power problems

As a certified airframe and power plant technician for over 40 years I have seen many electrical problems. Whenever I see an intermittent power problem the first thing to look for is a faulty ground wire. You say you have strong batteries so it is not a power problem. That leaves distribution or a ground as the problem. When you lose power to the instrument panel you don't lose power to the entire boat do you? That leaves a ground fault/broken wire in the instrument cluster. Keep looking in that area. Sounds like a faulty gnd in the starter switch.

 

[HerbertFriedman]

What perplexes me is that when I do have this loss of power to the instrument panel (the DC house panel is unaffected), if I turn the battery switch to the COMBINE BATTERIES position, power to the instrument panel is restored and the engine can be started. If it were a faulty ground in the stater switch or glo plug switch, I would think the problem would persist. I cant see that one or two batteries connected to the instrument panel makes any difference. he batteries are also 5 months old, well charged and show normal voltage.

All things point to a faulty battery switch, that is to say the part of the switch connecting the starting battery to the starter (and then onto the instrument panel) is loose. A friend had the same problem and had to replace the battery switch, granted his switch was quite old and mine is only 5 months old but the symptons are quite similar.

Next thing to check, after I re-install the new battery switch, and something I should have done before removing the switch, is to check for 12 V at the starter motor connection with the switch in the ON position when the fault occurs, if the new switch does not correct the problem. At this point I have trouble believing that such a new and beefy battery switch is the problem, but who knows.

There is an electrical component on the engine firewall that has something to do with the glo plugs. There is a wire from the starter motor going to this component and then back to the instrument panel to what appears to be the glo plug switch. I need to disconnect wires and use my meter to trace this component but I cannot find it listed on any wiring diagram. I will take a photo of this component tomorrow if the starter switch is not the problem.

 

[Dan Callen]

Intermittent Starting

Herbert- Be sure to check the main ground on your engine.....should be on the port side located on the back of the engine. If this is loose in can definitely cause intermittent problems. I had this same problem with similar issues and matter of fact it happened twice. I ended up putting a couple of drops of blue Loctite and haven't had the problem since. Let us know how you make out. Dan Callen Ericson32-3 Andiamo

 

[HerbertFriedman]

I did check the main ground on the engine, I put a wrench on the bolt and it was tight, tried to wiggle the ground wires and they were tight. If my new battery switch does not solve the problem, I will take those ground wires completely off, clean up the area with steel wool and reassemble. Let you know probably by tomorrow.

 

[Tom Metzger]

<!--[if gte mso 9]><xml> <w:WordDocument> <w:View>Normal</w:View> <w:Zoom>0</w:Zoom> <woNotOptimizeForBrowser/> </w:WordDocument> </xml><![endif]--> Herbert – There is a connection, probably on the 12 volt feed to the glow plugs that is not able to carry the current. It could be a switch contact, a wire connection, or a broken wire. Across that bad point there is 12 volts, or a large portion of the 12 volts, which prevents the 12 volts from dropping across the glow plugs, solenoid, etc.

With your meter you have to find that connection point. When you measure across the fault, one side to the other, you will read a large voltage, 12 v or less, but more than 2 volts.

You can isolate the problem; if everything powered by the instrument panel is out, measure from the red wire on the ammeter to ground. If that is less than 12 volts the problem is between the battery and the ammeter. As you go, make sure the connections are good where you test and that you are using a GOOD ground. Good is the engine ground or the ground on anything not affected by this problem.

If the voltage is not good start testing points between the battery and the ammeter until you find the problem.

If that’s OK, next measure the voltage on the purple wire on the key switch. The key switch is where the voltage is distributed to the several components that aren’t working, glow plugs, fuel pump, blower, etc., so if that voltage is bad you need a new key switch. If that is good, the problem is a bad ground. And test points between the battery and the engine ground.

Have fun.

BTW, I would be happy to come help you with troubleshooting; I work for beer. You pay for shipping.

 

[Loren Beach]

One caveat about the grounds led to that bolt on the bell housing. Every few years it's good to just remove the wires, sand paper all the connections, and tighten it down with some grease to keep moisture out. Check all those old crimps for quality, too.

Even a near-invisible amount of corrosion or dirt will cause measurable resistance in a 12 volt circuit.

Loren

 

[Stu Jackson]

Herbert, that "component" could be a solenoid added by the PO for the glow plugs. Many of us did that to hasten the glow plug time and avoid the long wiring run to the cockpit. If it is faulty, or the grounds from it are, then it's a $10 replacement from AutoZone.

While you have your switch out, have you considered going back to a standard 1-2-B switch?

AGM Battery Issues and the Blue Seas Dual Circuit Switch (from Maine Sail) "DARN AGM Batteries"
http://forums.catalina.sailboatowners.com/showthread.php?p=848465&highlight=darn agm

Good luck.

 

[Tom Metzger]

Yes, it could be a...

Yes, it could be a "component", but the chances are very slim. If there is 12 volts on the purple wire on the key switch then it is very unlikely that the problem is anything powered by that wire - glow plugs, fuel pump, blower, etc. The non-faulted parts would still work.

Since the problem disappears when the batteries are combined the fault is 99% sure of being between the engine ground and the battery switch. That includes the ground connection, unlikely because the other battery has a good ground; the shunt connections if there is a monitor on this battery; the battery; the battery connections; fuse and/or connection; and the battery switch and/or connections. The last three are likely. Each can be tested with the voltmeter.

I gave the procedure with the meter the way I did as a general method with the voltmeter because there was a question how a meter should be used. If my assumptions are correct, the problem would have been isolated by there being low voltage on the ammeter.

 

[HerbertFriedman]

Thanks to all for the fine advice, especially the clear tutorial on how to use a voltmeter effectively.

At this point, I have just replaced the 5 month old Blue Seas Dual Circuit switch with a new one. At this point my thinking was the obvious candidate was the switch itself. After all, if you knew nothing else and I told you that the switch in the ON position had intermittent problems but that switching to the COMBINE BATTERIES position worked every time, what else would you conclude. If that battery switch were 5 years old, not 5 months old, the first thing to do would be to change the switch.

Under that logic, as long as I had the old switch out, which I needed to do to make sure all the connections were good, why would I not put a new one in for re-installaton? Ok, $50 out the window. But it seems to have solved the problem, started up 10 out of 10 times. I will try it many more times over the next few days but if you dont hear from me, maybe I found the problem. Not all wasted, learned a lot about the wiring, cleaned up some poor contacts, etc, none of that solved the problem but it was far from a waste of time.

 

[Tom Metzger]

But it seems to have solved the problem, started up 10 out of 10 times.

Glad to hear it.

You might want to talk to Blue Seas about the bad switch. They must have some kind of a warranty.