Is the Universal 20/21 hp in the E32-3 "sufficient to in currents or a big wave chop?

[sailingdeacon]

I sail where a mean chop is normal and tide current can be a factor for considerable distances. So engine/prop performance is necessary. I do not mean can the engine drive the boat to hull speed in flat water. And I do agree an efficient and correct prop is necessary.

For example my own experience and that of some others is that the ericson 34 and 35-3 are both underpowered with the original engines. Many of those boats have been repowered.

However in my search for a E32-3 of the 80s' I dont see any repowerings. Or is it that that boat isnt used much for extended cruising/motoring? It seems the mid 80's 32's had the 20/21hp engine, and the later 80's had the 23hp engine. To add confusion, theengine identification doesnt seem to agree with the hp. i.e. the M25XP is rated at 23 hp and the M25 is rated at 21hp ("In 1981 the Model 5421 was replaced by the Model M25, a 52 cu in, 21 hp, 3 cylinder, based on the Kubota D-850 block and fitted with a Hurth HBW-50 marine transmission. It was built from 1981 to 1986.")


So my question is whether the 21hp Universal can do the job (for My situation) and if not would the 23 do any better. I realize some later models had the 25xp engine giving 23hp and perhaps that solved the potential problem?? I do not mean can the engine drive the boat to hull speed in flat water. And I do agree an efficient and correct prop is necessary.

 

[Loren Beach]

On achieving forward motion

While absolute hp is important, also keep in mind just how rare it is to find any (!) used sailboat with the correct prop at just the right pitch. Our boat came with a prop that was mis-pitched, and when we changed over to the less-efficient feathering prop it took multiple lifts to get it mostly adjusted correctly.

After going with the current three blade, it look more shop time ($) to get it tuned and balanced just so. We now motor at 7.2, but getting there has been a "long strange trip" (apologies to J Garcia).

I would expect a 21 hp M25 Universal to be able to drive any E-32/3 (or /200) to 6.0, even in a moderate chop. That's my guess, and the prop needs to be right.


FWIW, I know a ton of boat owners over the decades that have found that their boats came to them with incorrect props.

One other factor to consider: no matter what your engine is rated, remember that it will only develop that hp at it's peak rated rpm. Our 23 hp engine is designed to cruise at about 2500, and probably is putting out maybe 21 or so at that part of the curve (don't have a copy of the spec sheet handy) so if your boat is over-propped and you cannot rev it up that far in rough water you might be trying to move the boat with only 14 or 15 hp, and that will not be enough. Even though the engine intrinsically does have "enough' horsepower.

Not to beat the horse to death any further in "horse power", but the place where that horse power meets the water is often undervalued in the whole evaluation process.
The designer probably specified a given hp for that design based on theoretical computations that assumed that the prop would be correctly matched to the hull and displacement.
:nerd:

LB

 

[sailingdeacon]

Loren, I agree with all you wrote and why we see so many different opinions. I would probably give the benefit of the doubt to either engine on the e32 doing the job I want. I would feel better though with the 23hp Universal engine. How one uses a boat is critical also. Going down the ICW waterway there are definitely times where one wants as much hp as possible.

My question comes on the heels of a serious investigation of the Cs33's with the 20hp Bukh engine of the 1980's. (by the way no heat exchanger and therefore no engine hot water tank) . I have comment from several sources, including an early day's large CS dealer, who say the Bukh CS33 is underpowered. Similar designs with the CS a bit heavier.

I shuld add that I owned a Niagara 31 (8500 lbs) with a westerbeke 21 engine and it was ok, but not until I had a boat with a larger engine could I appreciate the difference. Looking back there were times when the Niagara slowed more than desired - and it was eventually paired with a matched Campbell 3 blade prop to make it better. I would give an ok to that engine/boat combination with the right prop.

So the net of it is
Niagara 31 fin 8500 lbs westerbeke 21... OK
CS33 10000 lbs , fin Bukh 20 (old design, raw water, big flywheel)... very questionable
Ericson 32-3 9800 lbs Universal 21 appears ok??? 23hp: has to be a bit better

 

[EGregerson]

power

If the motor is in good shape, it might not hurt to let it ride. I moved to a volvo 28 hp in my '87 E34 following an exhaust manifold problem; my old cruising speed was 5.4 with a 2 blade prop (original I think). The repower gave me 6 knots at 2800; wot was essentially 7.1 hull speed. I've since gone to a fixed 3 blade; it has allowed me to drop 200 rpm and cruise at 2600 rpm and 6 knots. so I'm seeing a .5 knot gain (like the feel and torque). But if i knew then what i know now, I may well not have done the repower. A. It cost a lot. Plus, the footprint of the new motor is different; 4 mounts rather the 3; raw water intake size; exhaust hose size differences. The 3 blade prop was done later by a guy from the old school; all he needed to know was: whats the displacement?; whats the horsepower? I like to think that he could tune a prop by sense of smell better than a modern computer. And i don't want to pay to find out different.

In the end, on the ICW, there are other variables to consider than just speed/power. The bridge schedules are important; and (sail) boats tend to collect in groups; I've never seen a bridge tender close the door on the last, slowest boat. The currents are either your friend or enemy; you can either fly or suffer. My 6 knots soon becomes 4 knots; the old motor's 5.4 knots became 3.4 knots; either way your wasting 1/3 of your fuel; sometimes you can time it just right; i caught once the outgoing tide down the waccamaw thru Winyah bay; my 6 knots became 9; incredible. But 5.4 knots would have been 8.4; still pretty incredible. The inlet currents, like topsail inlet, Bogue inlet etc where the currents alternate pretty frequently depending on your proximity to the inlet, are hard to time; averages just tend to average; 1st you're 7 knots; then you're 5 knots. Last trip i got got stuck at the Onslow bridge for 45 minutes (caught a tide and got there early :>). Got thru the bridge only to get stopped at the Red light 200 meters away; Marine corps live fire exercise for 45 minutes; finally got thru that only to be boarded by the Coast Guard. Moral: Take it easy; enjoy the day.

If i had the old Universl xp; I'd make sure the valves are adjusted; & that the exhaust manifold is free of carbon. Also add diesel power boost (Advance Auto Parts) to increase the cetane rating. The prop, well, whatever one's willing to part with to get it perfect. Fair winds.

 

[EGregerson]

power

If the motor is in good shape, it might not hurt to let it ride. I moved to a volvo 28 hp in my '87 E34 following an exhaust manifold problem; my old cruising speed was 5.4 with a 2 blade prop (original I think). The repower gave me 6 knots at 2800; wot was essentially 7.1 hull speed. I've since gone to a fixed 3 blade; it has allowed me to drop 200 rpm and cruise at 2600 rpm and 6 knots. so I'm seeing a .5 knot gain (like the feel and torque). But if i knew then what i know now, I may well not have done the repower. A. It cost a lot. Plus, the footprint of the new motor is different; 4 mounts rather the 3; raw water intake size; exhaust hose size differences. The 3 blade prop was done later by a guy from the old school; all he needed to know was: whats the displacement?; whats the horsepower? I like to think that he could tune a prop by sense of smell better than a modern computer. And i don't want to pay to find out different.

In the end, on the ICW, there are other variables to consider than just speed/power. The bridge schedules are important; and (sail) boats tend to collect in groups; I've never seen a bridge tender close the door on the last, slowest boat. The currents are either your friend or enemy; you can either fly or suffer. My 6 knots soon becomes 4 knots; the old motor's 5.4 knots became 3.4 knots; either way your wasting 1/3 of your fuel; sometimes you can time it just right; i caught once the outgoing tide down the waccamaw thru Winyah bay; my 6 knots became 9; incredible. But 5.4 knots would have been 8.4; still pretty incredible. The inlet currents, like topsail inlet, Bogue inlet etc where the currents alternate pretty frequently depending on your proximity to the inlet, are hard to time; averages just tend to average; 1st you're 7 knots; then you're 5 knots. Last trip i got got stuck at the Onslow bridge for 45 minutes (caught a tide and got there early :>). Got thru the bridge only to get stopped at the Red light 200 meters away; Marine corps live fire exercise for 45 minutes; finally got thru that only to be boarded by the Coast Guard. Moral: Take it easy; enjoy the day.

If i had the old Universl xp; I'd make sure the valves are adjusted; & that the exhaust manifold is free of carbon. Also add diesel power boost (Advance Auto Parts) to increase the cetane rating. The prop, well, whatever one's willing to part with to get it perfect. Fair winds.

 

[sailingdeacon]

Excellent post EG. Reflects my feelings and experience. Repowering costs get way, way out of hand unless one is keeping the boat many years in the future. The e34 I lost in Irene had been repowered with a 30hp Universal. After many prop changes I settled on a campbell 3 blade sailor. (could not stand the vibration from even the best of the racing folders.) The boat was probably overpowered but better than underpowered. Of course I benefited from the previous owners upgrade costs.

All this points to why i am trying to decide on a e32 purchase and whether the e32 power is "satisfactory" (very subjective). Rather than icw travel, I am more concerned with banging through the Pamlico Sound. Once in another 27 foot boat i would slow to 3.5 knots, slowly go back to 5.5 then hit the next 2 foot chop, and drop back to 3 to 4. 40 miles of that is a teacher.

In my discussions with a very knowledgeable person of this area (broker/racer) , his thoughts are that the engine on the 32 is borderline for the conditions you and I describe. Therefore probably not a show stopper if the E32 is otherwise good. But hard to justify economically a repower unless the old engine is shot.

But then again many of us arent motivated by rational thought.

 

[Mort Fligelman]

Small Engine/Heavy Boat

Just my .02 worth and observations over a long period.......and several boats owned...

24 Ft w/outboard...Real PIA and no power when really needed in a blow or heavy chop on Lake Michigan

29 Ft w/Atomic 4.......Cal 29, light displacement and for most part adequate but certainly not great.....

PT 30 w/Volvo 2Cyl Gas rated 10hp.....13,500 Lbs actually weighed......total disaster....almost no reverse....hell getting through a two foot chop, or 15 knot headwind....

Seidelmann 299 - Yanmar 2QM15 - 9,000 Lb Weighed.....l5hp in this boat was again, adequate, but not great.....

All of the above on Lake Michigan....no Tide or Current......

Present boat E35-3...21hp Universal M25XP ......In Florida 5 years......many trips down the Intercoastal....three bridges to wait for......Hillsboro Inlet on the in coming, or out going tide.....scary as hell.....with a 4 + knot current coming through the inlet bridge best I could go was 2+ knots.....always in fear of the boat going sideways and banging the sides of the bridge.......add the week end crazies in the power boats and not fun at all.....

Boat is now on Lake Michigan, and while again not perfect......adequate.....

All of these boats have had Martec Folders that either Walt Beck or his son determined was best from their observations and feedback.......The E35 had a 3 blade on it when I got it......no better than the 2 blade in any way......and unless you want to repower with a saildrive expect to live with a little vibration.

Get the 32.....sail it...enjoy it....you can overthink, or over engineer anything and get yourself crazy......

As I stated....my .02 Worth