M25XP Exhaust Hose question

[Loren Beach]

About a week ago we discovered (as in "noticed for the first time and really focused on it") that our original exhaust hose from WL Muffler to transom is seeping some rusty water. Looks like the '88 hose, heavy duty as it is, has reached the replacement point. Upon inspection the surface has some very small cracks and checks in the surface layer. With close to 2300 hours on the engine that's a lot of hot water and exhaust thru it, over the years/decades.

I can R&R the major (aft) portion with relative ease. Access is pretty good. This would then seem like a real good time to remove and inspect the muffler, and also R&R the shorter hose section from the muffler to the engine manifold. That looks daunting... That old hose is likely attached firmly to the manifold barb fitting.

Anyone here done this 'exhausting' bit of maintenance?


Once solution might be, after trying to reach over the engine and twist that old hose connection, is to use a shorty hack saw blade to cut thru the part that was clamped. Dremel Tool with cutting wheel, maybe?
Little room to work, but then it might not take too much swearing, using a new blade. I doubt that it will just slip off after almost 30 years.

Yeah, I could hire a yard guy @ $100./hour, but experience tells me that I would get a 11./hour person with little experience who will likely damage other parts of the boat while in there mucking around.
For semi-skilled labor, I am at least that qualified, and would prefer to keep the one BUC for myself.

Anyhow, your collective experience is always appreciated.


Loren

 

[HerbertFriedman]

I recently had to replace the mixing elbow on my E34 which has the M25xp engine. I think my boat is similar to yours so it may be the same situation. The water lift muffler is very hard to get to, I cannot even see but I know it is in the area next to the waste tank. The hose from that muffler to the engine has a metal reduction fitting accessible from the rear berth through an access plate, that fitting is very close to my dripless fitting on the prop shaft. I put a clamp on that fitting, one of those chain clamps attached to a vice grip, and then twisted the hose (going to the engine) with a large pair of channel lock pliers. It twisted loose pretty easily.

That hose goes to the output of the mixing elbow and the access is poor so I was unable to get the hose off the elbow. But there three nuts holding the elbow to the exhaust manifold and with some PB blaster, those came off and so did the elbow. I lost some antifreeze and had to replace the gasket but at least I now could put the elbow in a vice and twist off the hose. I think it is suggested to replace that elbow every 5-10 years and I found the replacement online for about $200. Turns out Vetus makes an exhaust hose which is much more compliant that the original so reattaching was easy.

This does not address how to change the hose from the metal fitting to the muffler or the hose from the muffler to the transom. As I said, on my boat I cannot even see the muffler because there is a compressor for the starboard fridge in the way. That compressor needs a freon refill and since we rarely us it, I may get rid of it, then hopefully access to the muffler will be easier.

 

[Kenneth K]

Loren,

After having replaced most of the hoses on my cooling and exhaust system last winter, here's what I learned.

- For whatever reason, the large diameter 2" exhaust hoses were easier to remove than some of the smaller hoses (they may be harder to replace if you have to duplicate tight bends with a new straight hose).

- The hoses attached to the fiberglass fittings on the Vernalift came off quite easily. The rubber hoses didn't seem to "bond" much to the fiberglass, and the fiberglass fittings seem to be slightly under-sized. The same was true when installing the new hoses--I felt like I had to tighten the clamps on the Vernalift to a greater extent to prevent leaks. This was something I was cautious about because Centek warns against over-tightening clamps on their fiberglass fittings.

- For all hoses in general (as you are probably aware): Before removing an old hose, you must first break the "bond" that occurs when a hose has been clamped in place to a fitting for years and years. I found I could never break this bond by pulling on a hose. Like the old Chinese Finger Cuffs, the hose only tightens when you pull on it. I could often break the initial bond by pushing the hose further onto the fitting (actually, it's push-bend, push-rotate, push-twist, repeat, repeat, repeat.....). Once you feel the initial bond give way, then you resort to pull-bend, pull-rotate, pull-twist......

- I also devised a tool that helped on stubborn hoses. Buy a couple of 1" plastic putty knives from Home Depot. Trim the tips of the blades lengthwise to various widths...1/2", 3/4", and round off any sharp corners. You can jam these tools into the space between the hose and the fitting and wiggle them around to loosen the hose. Unfortunately, whoever previously worked on my boat apparently did this with a screwdriver blade and left long scratches in several of my hose barbs.

In short...... it may be easier than you think.

 

[supersailor]

Loren,

WD-40 or similar is also supposed to make it easier to remove them if you can get the straw to the joint. I think in the O-34 it is much easier to get to the waterlift muffler than the E-34 but I don't have any experience there. Perhaps unbolting the muffler from the boat might allow more flexibility (better angles) in levering the hoses off. If not, you could cut both hoses off and bring the muffler out of the bilge to remove the stubs. The ability to swear is an important tool for this job. I ended up on a similar hose cutting it off at the muffler nipple, then cutting off the stub with a box knife and the steel ring with a set of dykes. It still took a flat blade screwdriver wedged between the nipple and the hose to break it loose. Sometimes you get lucky. Sometimes you don't.

May the Force be with you!

 

[lindaloo]

And here was us all thinking your boat was perfect Loren. PERFECT. Nothing overlooked, everything attended to. I for one feel a weight lifted from my shoulders.

I did this a few years ago with my 1987 E34. The hoses came out easier than I expected, as I recall. I may have cut the spiral reinforcing wire of the old hose with side cutters, or a hacksaw. A careful diagonal cut would let you peel off the hose with a screwdriver.

The bigger problem was access to the muffler. It is buried very deep in the starboard deep locker. The holding tank had to come out, so, take the opportunity to change the sanitary hoses too. What the hell ! (Use the Trident green stripe for that. Expensive but worth it.)

Anyway, the muffler. I needed a phillips driver on two long socket extensions to reach the screws. Thankfully they came out. The new hose must have been a bigger ID than the old as it was really loose on the muffler barbs so I built up the barb OD with cloth and resin. From the muffler back was no problem. It was routed behind plywood, which had to come out, but otherwise that was the easy part. Like Ken, I really had to crank on the hose clamps at the transom thru-hull as it was a loose fit. Some exhaust hose is not reinforced, if you don’t have tight radii I expect. If you can, check exact IDs against your barb fittings because they can vary a lot.

I always look at the cabinetry around the engine and want to drill out the teak plugs so I can unscrew and remove panels. But I never actually do it. Just complain about poor access, yet again. One of these days ……………

Rob

 

[EGregerson]

so...

how is the project coming. (rusty water: I'm anticipating new muffler will be required). As it's been quiet here; I'll assume Loren is deep in the project and will come up for air in time. Meanwhile I note several respondents are E34 owners. So my question is: How do u get at the exhaust hose connection in the transom locker?

 

[Loren Beach]

how is the project coming. (rusty water: I'm anticipating new muffler will be required). As it's been quiet here; I'll assume Loren is deep in the project and will come up for air in time. Meanwhile I note several respondents are E34 owners. So my question is: How do u get at the exhaust hose connection in the transom locker?

After wrapping the cracked rubber outer layer with self-amalegating tape, nothing further emerges. So we are using the boat until we tear into both this exhaust hose project *and* the re-wire of the engine-to-panel harness in a couple of months.
The water lift muffler is a composite plastic thing and likely the same as your boat's. I doubt that it will ever need replacing. Oops -- just guaranteed that it will by mentioning it!

Anyhow, the rusty drips on the surface of that OEM hose are probably proof that the inner layers have started to permeate and the spiral of steel under the outer layers is corroding away. There is one 'stage' of hose failure that is (humorously) worse..... a friend of mine with an '81 Ericson had to replace the original hose when the inner layer separated and started to partially block the passage. His exhaust started to make the strangest "chuffing and whooshing" sound that either of us had ever heard. You might call his problem an aneurysm, sort of.

One other factor is that the Olson is a much "simpler" boat internally than the equivalent length Ericson. It's easier, somewhat, to get at stuff. After having Bob expertly crew for me all last Saturday afternoon on that thrash to weather, he can better comment.
Apropos of Whatever, I would love to do that same 'big air thrash' again in Bob's E-34. Probably the same speed or maybe better... the BK-design Ericson has more-balanced water lines than the Olson, which is more at home reaching and running.

Anyhow, your interest is sure appreciated! The group on this Board is a constant source of encouragement and help. Sometimes, a sort of Greek Chorus.

 

[footrope]

After wrapping the cracked rubber outer layer with self-amalegating tape, nothing further emerges. So we are using the boat until we tear into both this exhaust hose project *and* the re-wire of the engine-to-panel harness in a couple of months.
The water lift muffler is a composite plastic thing and likely the same as your boat's. I doubt that it will ever need replacing. Oops -- just guaranteed that it will by mentioning it!

Anyhow, the rusty drips on the surface of that OEM hose are probably proof that the inner layers have started to permeate and the spiral of steel under the outer layers is corroding away. There is one 'stage' of hose failure that is (humorously) worse..... a friend of mine with an '81 Ericson had to replace the original hose when the inner layer separated and started to partially block the passage. His exhaust started to make the strangest "chuffing and whooshing" sound that either of us had ever heard. You might call his problem an aneurysm, sort of.

One other factor is that the Olson is a much "simpler" boat internally than the equivalent length Ericson. It's easier, somewhat, to get at stuff. After having Bob expertly crew for me all last Saturday afternoon on that thrash to weather, he can better comment.
Apropos of Whatever, I would love to do that same 'big air thrash' again in Bob's E-34. Probably the same speed or maybe better... the BK-design Ericson has more-balanced water lines than the Olson, which is more at home reaching and running.

Anyhow, your interest is sure appreciated! The group on this Board is a constant source of encouragement and help. Sometimes, a sort of Greek Chorus.

I recommend buying exhaust hose that does not have a thin liner as the inside layer. Years ago we also had a delaminating, wire reinforced 1-1/4" hose between the exhaust manifold and the muffler. The thin inner liner of silicone eventually separated enough to limit power and in short order the liner blocked the hose. The exhaust pressure blew the hose off the muffler connection and we got to sail to the dock.

 

[supersailor]

Hmm. I'm supposed to comment. "The ability to swear is an important skill for this project" would be appropriate. Actually, the job is simple compared to the dragging of Trident 101 through the head compartment to the Black water tank. Everything is relative here. Compared to the E-34, the change is simple. on the E-34, the bad news is the black water tank is very much in the way and has to go away to reach the muffler and associated items. I was able to disconnect the top hoses and vent and lay the tank back to expose everything behind it resulting in no spills of yucky stuff. If you have a 30 year old water heater, now is the time to consider replacing it as access gets much better if it is also removed. Mine was replaced. If you don't replace it, now is the time to replace all the water heater hoses. You may never see them again until one bursts and you get to do this procedure all over again. The shelf over the w/h also need removal. I cut mine in half to make removal easier. I had rewired all of the engine wiring and much of the other wiring so I didn't have that amazing spider web of wiring that so many E-34's have at the front of the cockpit locker compartment. One can now lay across the black water tank and the hot water heater base and reach down on the left side of the front of the water heater base and unfasten the two hoses on the muffler. A headband light helps and being double jointed is a big asset also. The feed for the hose to the mixer goes through the bulkhead at the lower left bottom. Reverse the procedure to reassemble and all is well except for the skinned knuckles and elbows and sore muscles. The reward is another 30 years of hopefully trouble free use of these systems.

The Olson is definitely simpler so when Loren whines, turn a deaf ear. When looking at his systems, I feel more like I am looking at the systems in my old SJ26 (complex because it has a Volvo Saildrive installed). When working on parts of the E-34, I wish I had a O-34. When at anchor in the far north, no question, it is the E-34. On the race course the O-34. Bashing into large seas the E-34. Screaming off the wind the O-34. For traversing the Straights in rough weather the E-34. The motion and lack of pounding is worth it's weight in gold.

The O-34 is fun to sail hard on the wind. There is a definite "sweet spot" that is rewarding when the boat is placed in it. The lee side drops then gets hard and the boat surges forward. The E-34 is about as fast as the O-34 in these conditions but the groove feels different. The E-34 would be less fatiguing on a long , rough bash to windward due to an easier movement over the chop. Off the wind, the Olson sailor would be on his second glass of wine when the Ericson guy arrived. Different folks, different boats. One is not better than the other.

 

[HerbertFriedman]

Bob, just want to understand, you can get to the muffler by removing the hot water tank but you can leave the waste tank in place?

 

[supersailor]

Herb,

Sorry for the impreciseness. You can get to the muffler without pulling the tank but the tangle of hoses and wires near the muffler would make it difficult to pull the new hose to the mixer. What I did was disconnect the upper hoses and vent to the black water tank. Then I pulled the top of the black water tank aft and laid it on it's back side in the locker. I then laid across the black water tank and the w/h base to get access. cushions and a camping mattress help. This makes it easier to replace both the exhaust and water heater hoses. My cooling system w/h hoses were close to failure. I can see why they were not replaced in the past.

 

[HerbertFriedman]

Bob, thanks for the detailed description, certainly helps. I assume that the black water tank was empty or near empty and also that there was enough flexibility in the remaining hose at the bottom of t he tank for you to rotate that tank. At that point, completely removing the black water tank must have seemed an option but a smelly one at that.

With the black water tank rotated (somewhat) out of the way, could you have removed the muffler altogether or was that still not possible?

 

[supersailor]

When I changed the head hoses to Trident 101, I put a 90 on the bottom of the tank for the feed from the head. Previously, the bend was done with the cheap white hose used before. The liner of the hose had cracked at the bend allowing the locker to become odoriferous. The hose also had a bad angle over the muffler area. With the 90 in place, the tank bent over fairly easily. The 90 has an extension piece so that the 90 can be screwed on past the 90 for the pump out. I did undo the hose at the syphon break. The pump out hose was disconnected at the fill.

Being older and having thinner skin and all that, I didn't want to wear a cloths pin on the nose during this operation so I emptied the tank and flushed it three times. It also helps that we have a Raritan Elegance head with fresh water flush. That alone really reduces odors.

The tabs for the muffler can be reached. It would be kind of a touchy feely operation as it is hard to see down there. I used an automotive wand mirror to see.

 

[HerbertFriedman]

Again, thanks for the description. Adding that 90 degree fitting sounds like it make things much easier. I might never have thought to do that so your experience id most helpful.