Last week it was a little too wild on Lake Ontario for our club's weekly race around the bouys. Frustrated because it was only blowing 20 knots with three -four foot seas I convinced the owner of a Beneteau Oceanis 35 to go out for a couple of trips around the course against my E35mk11. We were able to beat this boat on the downwind legs but upwind we had our hat handed to us. We just couldn't point as high as he could towards the windward mark and he sped away. I know that I should expect this- I'm in a 40 year old boat that weighs 12000 lbs. He's in a Beneteau. However is there anything I can do about this, short of boarding him or buying a newer boat? If I was a great sailor who knew what I was doing (which I am far from] what should I expect from my boat in terms of pointing ability and speed at the higher angles?
Phil MacFarlane
Member III
I put down inside track on my 35MKII. It will only work with a #3 jib or to be exact 105%. It made a huge improvment in pointing. It's also supper easy to tack. I put the track about 1.5 inches away from where the cabin top turns up under the port lights. I drilled holes in the deck the diamiter of the bolts I was going to use but I didn't drill through the head liner inside (yet). Then I dug out the balsa core (which was dry) around the drilled holes as much as posible. Then I filled the holes with thickend epoxy to form a solid biscuit. Then I drilled through the headliner from above. I made an aluminum backing plate the same length as the track I was adding and used nuts and washers on the inside and of course counter sunk screws in the track side.
Sailing wise, for upwind performance this is one of the best improvments I have ever done to the boat. That and a bigger rudder.
Sailing wise, for upwind performance this is one of the best improvments I have ever done to the boat. That and a bigger rudder.
Phil MacFarlane
Member III
Oh! I forgot to brag...
I beat a Bendytoy 40.7 fully crewed in a long distance race in San Francisco Bay. This 40.7 has won most of the major race's around the Bay including the Big Boat Series, Stone Cup......
I was single Handed in my little old E35.
My wife and I have beat this boat several times.
Ok, I feel better now.
Phil
I beat a Bendytoy 40.7 fully crewed in a long distance race in San Francisco Bay. This 40.7 has won most of the major race's around the Bay including the Big Boat Series, Stone Cup......
I was single Handed in my little old E35.
My wife and I have beat this boat several times.
Ok, I feel better now.
Phil
Chris Miller
Sustaining Member
Twist will help- cars back a little, vang and mainsheet eased a touch with trav up, and not to be a Q cliche- but anticipate the next shift.
Phil MacFarlane
Member III
Tim,
I didn't tell them. I don't think I have to, people move leads around all the time. Maybe I should look into it though, I'm no cheater. I just did this upgrade about 4-5 months ago.
I was surprised when I submitted my new rudder 4-5 years ago, to the local board and they didn't hit me for that.
I had a new main made a few months ago and we increased the "P" to 36.75
I have the tall mast and this is something like 12 or 18 inches more than stock. PHRF hit me 3 seconds for that. But we also made the leach much longer so when sheeted in hard now the boom has a considerable droop to the rear. They don't ask for that measurment so it's free sail area.
MGU = 5.09
MGM = 8.53 = nice big roach.
I have a flattening reef about a 10 inches up the leach. Pull that in and it takes so much power out of the sail it's like a reef.
So any way, in northern California the base PHRF for an E 35 MKII Tall mast is 150 spm. If you promise not to use a headsail bigger than a 125% you get + 3 seconds. I do this. So that equals 153 spm. Then I changed my main and got hit 3 spm. So I'm back at 150 but I can't use bigger than 125% headsail. My 155% dosn't perform like it used to, the poor thing. And I don't want to spend the money for a new one right now so this set up is working well enough for a while. But, I must say that my 155% has won more races than any other headsail. That's why I say poor thing. Rode hard and put away wet.
I didn't tell them. I don't think I have to, people move leads around all the time. Maybe I should look into it though, I'm no cheater. I just did this upgrade about 4-5 months ago.
I was surprised when I submitted my new rudder 4-5 years ago, to the local board and they didn't hit me for that.
I had a new main made a few months ago and we increased the "P" to 36.75
I have the tall mast and this is something like 12 or 18 inches more than stock. PHRF hit me 3 seconds for that. But we also made the leach much longer so when sheeted in hard now the boom has a considerable droop to the rear. They don't ask for that measurment so it's free sail area.
MGU = 5.09
MGM = 8.53 = nice big roach.
I have a flattening reef about a 10 inches up the leach. Pull that in and it takes so much power out of the sail it's like a reef.
So any way, in northern California the base PHRF for an E 35 MKII Tall mast is 150 spm. If you promise not to use a headsail bigger than a 125% you get + 3 seconds. I do this. So that equals 153 spm. Then I changed my main and got hit 3 spm. So I'm back at 150 but I can't use bigger than 125% headsail. My 155% dosn't perform like it used to, the poor thing. And I don't want to spend the money for a new one right now so this set up is working well enough for a while. But, I must say that my 155% has won more races than any other headsail. That's why I say poor thing. Rode hard and put away wet.
gareth harris
Sustaining Member
I put down inside track on my 35MKII. It will only work with a #3 jib or to be exact 105%. It made a huge improvment in pointing. It's also supper easy to tack. I put the track about 1.5 inches away from where the cabin top turns up under the port lights.
Any chance you could post a picture?
Gareth
Freyja E35 #241 1972
Phil MacFarlane
Member III
Gareth,
I am not to tech savy, I havn't ever posted a picture on the web but...
Tell you what, I,m going racing this weekend. A little race down the coast a ways.I wont be back till Sunday and I'm sure I'll be wiped out then. So early next week I'll figure it out and post a pic.
Actually, I would like to post several pics of the things I've done to Sail a Vie.
So I guess it's time to get with the program.
I am not to tech savy, I havn't ever posted a picture on the web but...
Tell you what, I,m going racing this weekend. A little race down the coast a ways.I wont be back till Sunday and I'm sure I'll be wiped out then. So early next week I'll figure it out and post a pic.
Actually, I would like to post several pics of the things I've done to Sail a Vie.
So I guess it's time to get with the program.
steven
Sustaining Member
Phil -
I'm interested in more about the inboard track, especially placement. This season I changed over to a 95% working jib and am trying to work out the inboard lead placement. Not sure where to put the track, whether to angle it, or how long to make it. Advice welcome.
By the way, last fall I left a Beneteau 40something in my wake on a 5 mile beat down the Severn River in 15-18kts. (but I don't think they knew what they were doing - they eventually gave up and motored).
I'm interested in more about the inboard track, especially placement. This season I changed over to a 95% working jib and am trying to work out the inboard lead placement. Not sure where to put the track, whether to angle it, or how long to make it. Advice welcome.
By the way, last fall I left a Beneteau 40something in my wake on a 5 mile beat down the Severn River in 15-18kts. (but I don't think they knew what they were doing - they eventually gave up and motored).
Phil MacFarlane
Member III
Steve,
First, good job on smokin the Bendytoy. I should say that I have nothing against those boats. As a matter of fact I have crewed on the one I beat quite a lot and it's a great boat with great folks. And the most comfy boat I ever cruised on was a French built Beneteau Evasion 38 ketch. We sailed to Mexico on that and I loved that boat, at least down wind. lol
Ok now. The thing that convinced me I needed to do this inside track was...
Last summer sailing home from Hawaii it blew like stink almost the whole way. I still had roller snarling then (went back to hanks since then) so I had my 100% rolled up to I guess about an 85%. That seemed to be as small as I could go with it sheeted to the rail.
Well, you know this model has those mystery little chain plate tangs that are between the inner lowers on either side of the mast. I have never known what these are for but I attached a block to them and lead the jib sheet to it.
Well, I was then able reef the sail down to about a 70% and it seemed like I could point ten degrees higher. Maybe it wasn't that much but it seemed like it.
So I knew I had to do the modification.
So until I can get a picture up...
I put the track down with no bend in it. Mainly because I thought it would be to hard to bend it and it's straight on lots of factory boats.
The forward end is just abaft of the forward inner lower shroud. This I think will be good for my storm sail and the condition mentioned above.
The rear end on mine is way too far back. My tracks are I think about 5-6 feet. This is dumb because I will never be able to use the back half of the track as a sail that big would be rubbing it's leach on the spreaders. I think the track only needs to be about 3 feet long.
I put it as close to the cabin as I was comfortable with. The inner edge of the track is about one inch outboard of the curved stainless plate that is the chain plate for the inner rear lower.
I did have to cut up my backing plate and put some of it in the hanging locker to starboard and the head to port.
With my 105% the car ends up right abaft of the main bulkheds.
There are some pics of my boat on other web sites. I'll see if I can post a link.
First, good job on smokin the Bendytoy. I should say that I have nothing against those boats. As a matter of fact I have crewed on the one I beat quite a lot and it's a great boat with great folks. And the most comfy boat I ever cruised on was a French built Beneteau Evasion 38 ketch. We sailed to Mexico on that and I loved that boat, at least down wind. lol
Ok now. The thing that convinced me I needed to do this inside track was...
Last summer sailing home from Hawaii it blew like stink almost the whole way. I still had roller snarling then (went back to hanks since then) so I had my 100% rolled up to I guess about an 85%. That seemed to be as small as I could go with it sheeted to the rail.
Well, you know this model has those mystery little chain plate tangs that are between the inner lowers on either side of the mast. I have never known what these are for but I attached a block to them and lead the jib sheet to it.
Well, I was then able reef the sail down to about a 70% and it seemed like I could point ten degrees higher. Maybe it wasn't that much but it seemed like it.
So I knew I had to do the modification.
So until I can get a picture up...
I put the track down with no bend in it. Mainly because I thought it would be to hard to bend it and it's straight on lots of factory boats.
The forward end is just abaft of the forward inner lower shroud. This I think will be good for my storm sail and the condition mentioned above.
The rear end on mine is way too far back. My tracks are I think about 5-6 feet. This is dumb because I will never be able to use the back half of the track as a sail that big would be rubbing it's leach on the spreaders. I think the track only needs to be about 3 feet long.
I put it as close to the cabin as I was comfortable with. The inner edge of the track is about one inch outboard of the curved stainless plate that is the chain plate for the inner rear lower.
I did have to cut up my backing plate and put some of it in the hanging locker to starboard and the head to port.
With my 105% the car ends up right abaft of the main bulkheds.
There are some pics of my boat on other web sites. I'll see if I can post a link.
Phil MacFarlane
Member III
Try these links, I don't know if they will work but.....
The first one is the best shot of the new track and sail shape. Note the droop in the boom.
http://www.lyonsimaging.smugmug.com/gallery/2951102#159449562
Next is just a great shot of me and my girl slipping out the gate. Notice where I'm sitting with a tiller extention in my hand. 105% up and 125% on deck, hanked on sheets tied and lead back, the saik is ready to hoist and it did go up about an hour after this shot. Got second in this race to a fixed up well sailed Cal 40.
http:lyonsimaging.smugmug.com/gallery/2742444#1456767708-l-lb
Next is me ans Sail a Vie (solid blue chute) roaring in the Golden Gate single handed. Next few shots show three wipouts, but a calm skipper. I won that race.
www.pbase.com/meyesphoto/lightship_race_2007&page=25
don't know if these will work so waste your time at your own risk.
The first one is the best shot of the new track and sail shape. Note the droop in the boom.
http://www.lyonsimaging.smugmug.com/gallery/2951102#159449562
Next is just a great shot of me and my girl slipping out the gate. Notice where I'm sitting with a tiller extention in my hand. 105% up and 125% on deck, hanked on sheets tied and lead back, the saik is ready to hoist and it did go up about an hour after this shot. Got second in this race to a fixed up well sailed Cal 40.
http:lyonsimaging.smugmug.com/gallery/2742444#1456767708-l-lb
Next is me ans Sail a Vie (solid blue chute) roaring in the Golden Gate single handed. Next few shots show three wipouts, but a calm skipper. I won that race.
www.pbase.com/meyesphoto/lightship_race_2007&page=25
don't know if these will work so waste your time at your own risk.
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wow! frames 72-73 of you guys going past Old Fort Point are intense.
beat the beneteau
We'll they say that youth and enthusiasm are no match for age and treachery. I've beat the Beneteau the last two race- both in light airs by covering this boat as closely as I could, forcing the boat into tacks and gibes when it was legal and playing a few adventageous shifts- mostly we've just tried to not let the Beneteau get into a drag race with us because in a straight drag race we'd lose. I think that's fair to say.
I have three questions. I installed a Garhauer EZ Glide Genoa track inside the shrouds this spring which works great with my 105 and my 135. I can point with these at 30degrees and still move nicely but inside 30 degrees it gets pretty rough. Should I expect this? What is the maximum I can point in an E35II effectively? On a 90 degree reach in medium winds I can travel 6.8-7 knots without much effort. At 30 degrees with a 135 I can travel 6.4 knots in medium winds (15knots) Is this typical or should I be able to squeeze more out of the boat? It's at these angles and wind speeds that I get left behind by my friend in the Beneteau. This weekend a J109 walked past me in these conditions like I was standing still during a 100 mile single handed race.
As an aside the photos posted of your Ericson are awesome. Do you regularly sail with a 105 up and a 135 on the deck? I find keeping the second sail on the deck a problem when the waves start to break over the bow. A few times this summer I had to stop to deal with a sail that had come loose on the deck. Now I keep everything in the v berth. What do you do to avoid this?
Thanks as always for any comments you can give.
We'll they say that youth and enthusiasm are no match for age and treachery. I've beat the Beneteau the last two race- both in light airs by covering this boat as closely as I could, forcing the boat into tacks and gibes when it was legal and playing a few adventageous shifts- mostly we've just tried to not let the Beneteau get into a drag race with us because in a straight drag race we'd lose. I think that's fair to say.
I have three questions. I installed a Garhauer EZ Glide Genoa track inside the shrouds this spring which works great with my 105 and my 135. I can point with these at 30degrees and still move nicely but inside 30 degrees it gets pretty rough. Should I expect this? What is the maximum I can point in an E35II effectively? On a 90 degree reach in medium winds I can travel 6.8-7 knots without much effort. At 30 degrees with a 135 I can travel 6.4 knots in medium winds (15knots) Is this typical or should I be able to squeeze more out of the boat? It's at these angles and wind speeds that I get left behind by my friend in the Beneteau. This weekend a J109 walked past me in these conditions like I was standing still during a 100 mile single handed race.
As an aside the photos posted of your Ericson are awesome. Do you regularly sail with a 105 up and a 135 on the deck? I find keeping the second sail on the deck a problem when the waves start to break over the bow. A few times this summer I had to stop to deal with a sail that had come loose on the deck. Now I keep everything in the v berth. What do you do to avoid this?
Thanks as always for any comments you can give.
35-II's and little jibs
Well,
Phil is 100% correct on his placement, installation and observations about track length for this boat-this is eaxctly what we did on Providence-a well sailed 35 here in Chicago which I built a full Carbon sail inventory for (including a 105% for inside sheeting) before going into sailmaker recovery.
It does make a big difference in pointing and upwind VMG once you have 15 or so TWS.
For angles, 30 degrees apparent is pretty good for this boat-in very flat water and 15-18 TWS you might see 28, but that is about it, so you are doing well. Upwind speed will always be less than close or beam reaching speeds with any real breeze, and while I would have to check the polars to see exactly what speeds you should see in a given condition, if you are sailing only about .4-.5 knots slower when very close hauled you can't be doing too badly.
Remember that the Oceanis is a relatively modern design with a deeper keel and bigger rudder, and less relative wetted surface-so you can't expect to realistically sail upwind against them boat for boat in steady conditions. Same with the J109-which by the way is rated about 80 seconds/mile faster than the 35-II, so no surprise there.
To maximize upwind sailing, the 3 biggies are: inboard # 3 track, BS adjuster, and modified (deeper) rudder-none of these are very pricey, BTW.
Of course, decent sails make a HUGE difference, so don't underestimate the importance of them-they are your engine. You can't race your MG midget in SCCA successfully with poor cylinder compression, right?
Finally, PHRF (or any other rating) is NOT affected by track additions, and you do not have to report them. Changes in hull shape, rig dimensions or spin pole length, sail dimensions, keel or rudder shape, or ballast additions/subtractions are the main things you need to report and be subject to a rating adjustment for.
Sail safe,
S
Well,
Phil is 100% correct on his placement, installation and observations about track length for this boat-this is eaxctly what we did on Providence-a well sailed 35 here in Chicago which I built a full Carbon sail inventory for (including a 105% for inside sheeting) before going into sailmaker recovery.
It does make a big difference in pointing and upwind VMG once you have 15 or so TWS.
For angles, 30 degrees apparent is pretty good for this boat-in very flat water and 15-18 TWS you might see 28, but that is about it, so you are doing well. Upwind speed will always be less than close or beam reaching speeds with any real breeze, and while I would have to check the polars to see exactly what speeds you should see in a given condition, if you are sailing only about .4-.5 knots slower when very close hauled you can't be doing too badly.
Remember that the Oceanis is a relatively modern design with a deeper keel and bigger rudder, and less relative wetted surface-so you can't expect to realistically sail upwind against them boat for boat in steady conditions. Same with the J109-which by the way is rated about 80 seconds/mile faster than the 35-II, so no surprise there.
To maximize upwind sailing, the 3 biggies are: inboard # 3 track, BS adjuster, and modified (deeper) rudder-none of these are very pricey, BTW.
Of course, decent sails make a HUGE difference, so don't underestimate the importance of them-they are your engine. You can't race your MG midget in SCCA successfully with poor cylinder compression, right?
Finally, PHRF (or any other rating) is NOT affected by track additions, and you do not have to report them. Changes in hull shape, rig dimensions or spin pole length, sail dimensions, keel or rudder shape, or ballast additions/subtractions are the main things you need to report and be subject to a rating adjustment for.
Sail safe,
S
Phil MacFarlane
Member III
wow! frames 72-73 of you guys going past Old Fort Point are intense.[/QUOTE]
Yah! For those that don't know, that's the area just inside the Golden Gate Bridge on the south or San Francisco side. The wind always freshens there and clocks. So it's a regular event to see boats rounding up in that area. There are big tidle currents there too. A three boat length difference in location can mean a 5+ knot current difference at times.
yah baby!
Yah! For those that don't know, that's the area just inside the Golden Gate Bridge on the south or San Francisco side. The wind always freshens there and clocks. So it's a regular event to see boats rounding up in that area. There are big tidle currents there too. A three boat length difference in location can mean a 5+ knot current difference at times.
yah baby!
Phil MacFarlane
Member III
As an aside the photos posted of your Ericson are awesome. Do you regularly sail with a 105 up and a 135 on the deck? I find keeping the second sail on the deck a problem when the waves start to break over the bow. A few times this summer I had to stop to deal with a sail that had come loose on the deck. Now I keep everything in the v berth. What do you do to avoid this?
Thanks as always for any comments you can give.[/QUOTE]
Hey, sorry to take so long to reply. As to the questions on what you can expect and what I get I'll defer to Seth as I'm sure he has much better info than I on that stuff. I don't really have many instruments on my boat, no wind info, can't really make out the speedo any more and don't stare to much at the gps or the compass. I kind of sail by the seat of my pants.
As for the sail on deck (the photo link that didn't work). No, I don't usually sail with another headsail on deck. That day I was racing the single handed Farallones Race. It's a 56 mile race that starts and ends inside SF Bay but most of it takes place out in the ocean. The Farallones are a group of islands about 25 miles off shore. So it's often more windy inside the Bay and lighter outside, as was the case that day. So I started with the 105% up and the 125% ready to go. I had all the hanks of the 125 hanked on the the forestay between the tack and the first hank of the 105. I had sheets attached to the 125 and lead to the rail as the sheets on the 105 were lead to the inside track. When I went to change headsails once out in the ocean I just had to drop the 105, switch the halyard over to the 125, unhank the 105 and raise the 125. I kept the 125 in it's sausage bag on deck until ready to use to limit the amount of waves it would soak up. When the 105 was down and the 125 was up I stuffed the 105 down the foreward hatch into the v-berth.
So even though doing a bald headed sail change is slow, especially single handed, it works. I got second in division out of 25 and 5th overall out of 64.
Now in the races to Hawaii I've done, I often end up with three jibs on the fore deck at the same time as I'm flying a spinnaker. Being single handed, I don't just put up a kite on day three and leave it up like crewed boats do. I need to have a break from the kite so I end up leaving a headsail on deck, or two or three. Besides dragging all thoses sails below is a lot of work and it's hard to fold them into small packages on deck so they take up a lot of room. And of course we are going down wind, so the bigger mess on deck equal more total sail area
Hope that helps, keep up the winning!
Phil
Thanks as always for any comments you can give.[/QUOTE]
Hey, sorry to take so long to reply. As to the questions on what you can expect and what I get I'll defer to Seth as I'm sure he has much better info than I on that stuff. I don't really have many instruments on my boat, no wind info, can't really make out the speedo any more and don't stare to much at the gps or the compass. I kind of sail by the seat of my pants.
As for the sail on deck (the photo link that didn't work). No, I don't usually sail with another headsail on deck. That day I was racing the single handed Farallones Race. It's a 56 mile race that starts and ends inside SF Bay but most of it takes place out in the ocean. The Farallones are a group of islands about 25 miles off shore. So it's often more windy inside the Bay and lighter outside, as was the case that day. So I started with the 105% up and the 125% ready to go. I had all the hanks of the 125 hanked on the the forestay between the tack and the first hank of the 105. I had sheets attached to the 125 and lead to the rail as the sheets on the 105 were lead to the inside track. When I went to change headsails once out in the ocean I just had to drop the 105, switch the halyard over to the 125, unhank the 105 and raise the 125. I kept the 125 in it's sausage bag on deck until ready to use to limit the amount of waves it would soak up. When the 105 was down and the 125 was up I stuffed the 105 down the foreward hatch into the v-berth.
So even though doing a bald headed sail change is slow, especially single handed, it works. I got second in division out of 25 and 5th overall out of 64.
Now in the races to Hawaii I've done, I often end up with three jibs on the fore deck at the same time as I'm flying a spinnaker. Being single handed, I don't just put up a kite on day three and leave it up like crewed boats do. I need to have a break from the kite so I end up leaving a headsail on deck, or two or three. Besides dragging all thoses sails below is a lot of work and it's hard to fold them into small packages on deck so they take up a lot of room. And of course we are going down wind, so the bigger mess on deck equal more total sail area
Hope that helps, keep up the winning!
Phil