Rudder bushing question

[bigd14]

I noticed that, too. The grease is coming out of the joint between the bronze and the tube. That seal, bronze to tube, was created by the factory with 5200, there is no mechanical fastening. If the bronze rotates or lifts easily, it will need to be re-bedded, which is a different issue.

But probably the grease will fill the gaps.

Well, I just noticed I have a similar problem. I was checking for leaks around the stern thru-hulls and was surprised to find a bunch of grease had collected in the well around the rudder post. I had added grease last fall but failed to notice that it had been coming out because the grease leak is at the very back of the rudder post making it nearly impossible to see unless you make a full body commitment to get back in there. Looks like it's only a small void so I am not going to worry about it for now unless it looks like its leaking significantly or getting larger.

Probably it was due to a poor job spreading the 5200 or whatever sealant they used to bond the gland to the tube. It is in the way back end after all.

 

[Kenneth K]

Well, I just noticed I have a similar problem.

The last time I was pumping grease into the lower rudder zerk, I noticed the same thing. I just took it as a sign that the tube was full and that it was time to stop pumping.

Apparently, the pressure from a manual grease gun can reach hundreds of psi. This makes me wonder if I "created" a gap in the rudder gland seal that wasn't there before. It doesn't seem to have mattered, I don't think the low pressure of water in the tube can displace that grease--I've never seen leaking water there.

 

[Dave G.]

I don't think the low pressure of water in the tube can displace that grease--I've never seen leaking water there.

Also on most of our boats the top of the rudder tube is above the waterline.

 

[Kenneth K]

Also on most of our boats the top of the rudder tube is above the waterline.

Yeah, probably. But the stern squats down considerably on most boats while motoring near hull speed. That, and/or the added pressure of pounding off waves (with or without heeling) likely means water can find it's way to the top of the tube. If it couldn't, it wouldn't require a stuffing box.

 

[Dave G.]

it wouldn't require a stuffing box

Hmmm.. Mine is not really a stuffing box as there isn't any adjustment like on a prop shaft. Just a fitting with some packing in it. Does yours have an adjustment nut ?

 

[Kenneth K]

Does yours have an adjustment nut ?

Yes, you can see the depictions in posts #22&26. Three adjustment screws to squeeze the two flanges together to compress the flax packing.

 

[Frank Langer]

Yes, you can see the depictions in posts #22&26. Three adjustment screws to squeeze the two flanges together to compress the flax packing.

Can that flax packing be replaced with the boat in the water, or does it need to be hauled? What's involved in replacing that flax packing?
Frank

 

[Kenneth K]

Here is the post from when I had it done. Far easier with the quadrant and rudder removed, but perhaps still doable without removing them.

Repacking Rudder Stuffing Box

Anyone ever re-done their rudder stuffing box packing? I had never seen one up close before last night, but since my rudder is off, I got a good look at mine. The 3 rings of flax add up to about 7/8" of width so I'm guessing it's 3 layers of 5/16" or 3/8" wide flax that's been...

ericsonyachts.org

 

[Christian Williams]

It's a gland, just there to seal. Not adjustable, like a stuffing box. When the two halves are mated, that's it.

 

[Loren Beach]

It's a gland, just there to seal. Not adjustable, like a stuffing box. When the two halves are mated, that's it.

Agree. I wonder if the design of the the shaft-and-tube was to combine the layer of grease in the whole interior with the "minimal-stuffing-box " (gland) idea at the top to effectively block water from migrating upwards by boat speed. i.e. it might be less complicated than we imagine.

 

[Kenneth K]

It's a gland, just there to seal. Not adjustable, like a stuffing box. When the two halves are mated, that's it.

Yeah that may be. I was extrapolating what I've seen with my boat across the whole spectrum, which may not be true. In mine, both before and after re-packing, the two halves never mated, leaving room for adjustment. This could also have to do with the size of packing used inside the gland.



But, yeah, on a prop shaft gland, there is a fully threaded body that clamps down to compress the packing material. So, the three small screws used on the rudder post flanges might likely be insufficient to supply much compressive force without bending, cracking, or damaging the flanges.

 

[Nick J]

I completed the zerk fitting install and filled the rudder tube with grease this weekend. Embarrassingly, this took me 6 months form initial purchase of the grease gun and first zerk fitting to where I am today. Everything Christian and others have said was spot-on, but there were a few details I just couldn’t get over in my head.

• Isn’t the packing gland enough? I know it doesn’t compress the same way as prop shaft packing gland, but doesn’t the same principal apply? On my boat there was only a top and bottom bushing zerk fitting, nothing in the middle. In my mind, this indicated grease was only intended to be used as a lubricant on the bushings not a water block. However, my rudder packing gland was fiber glassed together and I didn’t see an easy way to repack it with the rudder in place, so I was willing to put this issue aside and rely on the advice of others (note the mess from the previous fiberglass work)

• My bottom zerk fitting was completely rusted to the point where it was no longer discernable. Instead looking like an orange spot on the tube. I was tempted to leave it as is, but when I looked closely at the rudder tube while under way, the fitting was leaking water, so I had to either replace it or seal it up. I opted for replacement.

• Don't rely on standards. I got a Groco spanner deck plate wrench to remove the deck plate, but the pins were too big for the deck plate. I chucked them in my drill and took 80grit sand paper to them until they fit in the holes

• Zerk fittings are deceptively confusing, at least to me. They come in all sorts of threads and various configurations. I ended up buying 4 different fittings and ultimately ended up using a ¼” x 18 NPT fitting. Finding what you need in stainless makes it even more difficult.
• Tapered threads are difficult to cut. With a blind hole due to the rudder shaft still in place, there isn’t enough room to run the tap to the correct depth which results in a hole that’s too small to accept a fitting. There are so many better ways to seal a threaded connection, can we just agree to stop using tapered threads? I think the world has suffered enough.
• Epoxying the fitting in place would make it difficult to remove in the event of the valve mechanism failing due to rust or other contamination.
• Access sucks! This is a common theme on boats, but I found this one particularly frustrating. It’s in a spot that’s visible, even reachable, but there’s no easy way to get a good look at the lower fitting. I ended up using an endoscope from Kline tools I found on sale on Amazon a few years ago. The picture wasn't great but it did do a good enough job to convince me away from reusing the original threaded hole.

• The solution I ended up with was using reducers. This allowed me to enlarge the existing hole which cleaned up the material I would adhere the fitting to and solved my problem of not being able to tap threads into the post. I ran into a small hiccup when I realized some of the epoxy squished around the fitting and into the inner threads, but that was easily cleaned up with a tap.

• After the threads were cleaned, I drilled the thru hole in the middle fitting and vacuumed it out.
• A battery powered grease gun with a LocknLube coupler made the grease filling part easy. At the time I purchased the gun, it was only $40 more than a decent manual gun (tool only) The only difficult part was determining if the rudder tube was full. I ended up putting two 14 oz canisters in. Most went into the new middle fitting. The top bushing fitting only took a few oz until the crusty old grease was pushed up out of the deck fitting and the bottom one was a blind guess of 2oz. I wonder if my diver will notice excess leaking from the bottom.

We’re planning on taking the boat out next weekend. Fingers crossed this project is done and I’ve eliminated one more source of bilge water leaving only fresh water leaks from above the waterline to attend to.

 

[Christian Williams]

Nice work. We can leave to somebody else to explain why a boatbuilder would use automotive grease fittings of mild steel in a marine environment. We all have rust spots where they used to be.

I have a hunch your rudder tube was re-glassed at the top, a bit over the flange of the bronze gland. It's a popular fix when the bronze separates from the top of the tube, where it was originally held in place only by 5200 (rather than any mechanical connection).

 

[southofvictor]

Thanks for the detailed post @Nick J and nice job. My rudder post zerks are on this weekends list. Good to review your experience before diving in.

 

[bigd14]

Amazing how such seemingly minor jobs turn into major efforts. Good work.

In the third photo is that some kind of an EZ out attachment for drill or screwdriver that you used to remove the old fitting?

 

[Nick J]

I think my set is a Speed Out:

https://www.lowes.com/pd/SpeedOut-8-1-8-in-Double-Ended-Screw-Extractor/1000170531?cm_mmc=shp-_-c-_-prd-_-tol-_-ggl-_-LIA_TOL_215_Power-Tool-Accessories-_-1000170531-_-local-_-0-_-0&gclid=Cj0KCQjw4NujBhC5ARIsAF4Iv6dGWX5gqNMGm1AthSFWp6aj4Li338VQT8MOdPXIlezkvDvwZGyrXhIaAkYWEALw_wcB&gclsrc=aw.ds

They are kind of hit and miss. Most of the time I end up stripping the head more with it, but occasionally they work. For best results, I drill the hole in the fastener with lefthanded drill bits. At worst, they don't tighten the stripped fasterner any more. A good portion of the time, the fastener comes out while drilling with the left handed bit and I don't have to us the speed out.

 

[Nick J]

How much grease did everyone end up putting in their rudder tube? I have 2 14 oz tubes in and it's still leaking. I don't really have a good way to tell when it's full and I can't get over the feeling it's oozing out the bottom. Diver should be coming in the next few weeks, but thought I would bounce the question off the forum. I don't have a good before picture, but it did seem to be a reduced leak and there wasn't anything coming from the lower zerk fitting. After a 5 hours of motoring and sailing this weekend, the bilge only had a small puddle of water so I'm on too concerned, but after all this work, it would be nice to be dry.

 

[bsangs]

How much grease did everyone end up putting in their rudder tube? I have 2 14 oz tubes in and it's still leaking. I don't really have a good way to tell when it's full and I can't get over the feeling it's oozing out the bottom. Diver should be coming in the next few weeks, but thought I would bounce the question off the forum. I don't have a good before picture, but it did seem to be a reduced leak and there wasn't anything coming from the lower zerk fitting. After a 5 hours of motoring and sailing this weekend, the bilge only had a small puddle of water so I'm on too concerned, but after all this work, it would be nice to be dry.

Mine took about six mini grease tubes - so around 18 ounces - before it started oozing out the top. Hasn’t shown any signs of leaking so far after a few times out (knock wood).