Sail reef design

[alcodiesel]

Ok, I am guessing this is the right place for this. The mainsail that came with this boat has only one reefing point, one set of cringles, about 3-4 feet up.. One. The PO (deceased) only raced her. It is a custom sail made by a local sailmaker (out of business). It has a "jiffy reefing" system that works great while under sail.
Is this a racing thing? Why did the PO go through all the effort and expence of getting sails made and get only one reef?
More importantly: How can I go about getting one or maybe two additional reefs in this sail (without tremendous cost)?
Please be easy on me if I've used any incorrect terms.

 

[markvone]

Hi Bill,

Yes, it is a racing thing. Consider yourself lucky that you have a reef!

The primary reason they are omitted on racing oriented mainsails is because they add weight.

A second factor for the racer is that as wind increases you change down in jib size while flying the full main. With our masthead Ericsons having big jibs and relatively small mains you rarely get enough wind here on the Chesapeake to force a reef in the main with your smallest jib (say a 100% or #3) and all your crew on the rail.

Lastly, often while racing in higher winds, a crew (the dedicated main trimmer) will "play" the flattened full mainsail to feather it upwind in gusts and power it up in lulls to maximize performance. This also avoids having to un-reef the main when going downwind and re-reef when heading back up.

Any sailmaker should be able to add reefs to your mainsail if it is Dacron. They can also determine if adding reefs is a good idea if it is a high tech laminate or if it is built of very lightweight Dacron.

This is a relatively small job that would also be a good exercise to find and develop a relationship with a loft (local or big name) that eventually you will work with in the future when you need a new sail.

Mark

 

[Christian Williams]

Agree completely.

 

[alcodiesel]

Thanks Mark. That clears a lot of cloudiness in my mind. It is Dacron.

 

[tenders]

I don't know how the 27 sails under genoa alone, or partially furled genoa, but my 32 is surprisingly good. If it's blowing hard enough to justify a second reef in the main, I'm either not going to be out sailing or I'll be sailing with no main at all. I don't even rig the second reefing line any more.

 

[markvone]

So Bill,

Do you really need a second reef?

I've probably only reefed 2 or 3 times in the six seasons I've sailed the boat here in Annapolis.

Why? Because it's usually very light winds here. Or as Tenders has noted, you can often sail with just a jib or a main on a windy day, you can partially roll up a jib easier than adding a reef and you may just pass on sailing if it's windier than you or your crew likes.

I'm not trying to convince you to skip the second reef. It's not an expensive job and getting to know a sailmaker is probably worth the cost even if you didn't get the work done. There is no wrong way to do this, just what works best for you. If you are planning some extended cruising or just like to sail when it's windy then a second reef gives you options. Your new sailmaker will ask what your plans are, check out your mainsail and give you the best advice.

Mark

 

[mjsouleman]

reefing

Hi Mark,

I have been sailing only three years with Discovery (1983 Ericon 30+), on the Chesapeake.

There have been a few times early on when the wind came up over 12-14 knots and I did not have the skill to handle her.

I think, you just answered a nagging question.

You see, Discovery has one jib, the big 150/130? and even with a single reef she has been too much for me when the wind
is over 14 knots.

So my next question is, what size jib do you fly when the wind is up?

MJS

Hi Bill,

Yes, it is a racing thing. Consider yourself lucky that you have a reef!

The primary reason they are omitted on racing oriented mainsails is because they add weight.

A second factor for the racer is that as wind increases you change down in jib size while flying the full main. With our masthead Ericsons having big jibs and relatively small mains you rarely get enough wind here on the Chesapeake to force a reef in the main with your smallest jib (say a 100% or #3) and all your crew on the rail.

Lastly, often while racing in higher winds, a crew (the dedicated main trimmer) will "play" the flattened full mainsail to feather it upwind in gusts and power it up in lulls to maximize performance. This also avoids having to un-reef the main when going downwind and re-reef when heading back up.

Any sailmaker should be able to add reefs to your mainsail if it is Dacron. They can also determine if adding reefs is a good idea if it is a high tech laminate or if it is built of very lightweight Dacron.

This is a relatively small job that would also be a good exercise to find and develop a relationship with a loft (local or big name) that eventually you will work with in the future when you need a new sail.

Mark

 

[Loren Beach]

Some good comments about head sail size in this blog entry.
http://www.ericsonyachts.org/infoexchange/entry.php?131-The-90-Percent-Jib

I would humbly suggest that you consider a much shorter foot jib than "tradition" might indicate.
Stay with a full hoist jib on your fractional rig, tho. And have several vertical battens to maintain drive in the leach up high.

And as for reefing, our model has a fairly powerful sail plan, and we have still tied in the first reef less than 5 times in over two decades. The main also has a second reef, if ever needed.

Loren

 

[Shelman]

Man this thread makes me feel like im from the moon! We oftan sail in 30+ knots to windward and fly a double reefed main and half of a 110 jib doing about 5kts. We can also fore-reach nicely in 30+ with just a double reefed main, almost hove to but still making a bit of headway.

 

[alcodiesel]

Thank you, Mark. Here are my thoughts, for what it's worth.
I like to sail 2 to 3 times a week if possible. I am trying to expand the acceptable wind window that I am comfortable with. Yesterday we were in 20+ kts, had the one reef, sail as flat as possible, jib furled (which brings it's own shape problems) to about 60% and still the boat was a handful.
No jib and she doesn't point too well.
I did sail once, jib only, and I likened it to driving a semi.

And I am thinking a second reef as insurance against getting caught in a big wind increase.
Maybe it all boils down to reading too many single handed circumnavigation books.

 

[markvone]

MJS,

I have a 150 genoa and a 105 jib, both on an original Harken Mk1 furler. They are both Quantum Fusion M laminate sails. They have low tech polyester threads (not kevlar, carbon or spectra) on a mylar membrane. They do not stretch compared to Dacron. Both sails are performance designed, full hoist, deck sweeping, with lightweight UV Dacron sun shield. I don't ever plan to partially furl them, although I have done it for both.

I can get sailing in 2 knots of wind with the 150 and my headstay set loose for ~ 10 inches of sag (backstay totally off). By 5 knots, I'm powered up and passing every heavy cruiser on the Bay, particularly those with shoal keels and furling mainsails. At 10 knots, I'm getting near my max heal upwind (the heavy cruisers are smiling and sailing now). At 12 knots, I'm maxed on the 150 and starting to depower the sailplan. I can push the 150 to 14 knots if I flatten the main by bending the mast with max hydraulic backstay (this also takes all the sag out of the headstay). I also move the jib lead aft to twist the top of the genoa and spill some wind. I'm healing at 15 - 18 degrees with no crew on the rail. Weather helm due to the heal angle is starting to slow me down due to rudder drag.

I try to never sail my genoa partially furled because the shape is horrible (I don't have a foam luff and the shape is deep for light air). My sailmaker built it with enough fiber for 17 knots because he knows I've got no chance of changing to my 105 in 14 knots even though I said I would. A good sailmaker asks you how you sail and knows when you are lying .

My 105 gets sailing at 6 - 8 knots and is good at 10. It's fully powered up at 15 knots and maxed at 18. My 105 just fits ahead of the spreaders, has the vertical battens that Loren describes and also inhaulers that pull the clew inboard for a tighter sheeting angle and more low end power. The inhaulers were recommended by my sailmaker to boost low end power and reduce the need for sail changes which are a royal pain with the sail sizes on the E36RH.

Bill,

What size sail are you dealing with? Generally, a +/- 130 is the largest size genoa that sailmakers will recommend for partial furling. Newer sails have lots of features to make partial furling work better. An older Dacron sail will have stretched out of shape and will get more stretched as the wind increases.

A major decision is do you want to go with two sails and the cost, storage and changing hassles or just a single sail and partially furl it. Our area penalizes the single 130 more than others because we have a lot of 0 - 8 knot wind days where a 150 is optimal and a 130 is underpowered. Having the second reef is not going to help a 150 or 130 function over 20 knots. I'd have my 105 and a single reef at 20 kts. This is where a good sailmaker will ask how you use your boat and figure out what set of sails makes the most sense.

Mark

 

[mjsouleman]

sailing and sails

Mark,

Thank you, you and the rest of the Ericson team always provide the best experience and advice.

As a new sailor, the information you provided will help me be a better master of Discovery. The poor girl wants to run and your advice will help me lead her.

So, I will be looking for a 105 jib (asking for leads here).

MJS

MJS,

I have a 150 genoa and a 105 jib, both on an original Harken Mk1 furler. They are both Quantum Fusion M laminate sails. They have low tech polyester threads (not kevlar, carbon or spectra) on a mylar membrane. They do not stretch compared to Dacron. Both sails are performance designed, full hoist, deck sweeping, with lightweight UV Dacron sun shield. I don't ever plan to partially furl them, although I have done it for both.

I can get sailing in 2 knots of wind with the 150 and my headstay set loose for ~ 10 inches of sag (backstay totally off). By 5 knots, I'm powered up and passing every heavy cruiser on the Bay, particularly those with shoal keels and furling mainsails. At 10 knots, I'm getting near my max heal upwind (the heavy cruisers are smiling and sailing now). At 12 knots, I'm maxed on the 150 and starting to depower the sailplan. I can push the 150 to 14 knots if I flatten the main by bending the mast with max hydraulic backstay (this also takes all the sag out of the headstay). I also move the jib lead aft to twist the top of the genoa and spill some wind. I'm healing at 15 - 18 degrees with no crew on the rail. Weather helm due to the heal angle is starting to slow me down due to rudder drag.

I try to never sail my genoa partially furled because the shape is horrible (I don't have a foam luff and the shape is deep for light air). My sailmaker built it with enough fiber for 17 knots because he knows I've got no chance of changing to my 105 in 14 knots even though I said I would. A good sailmaker asks you how you sail and knows when you are lying .

My 105 gets sailing at 6 - 8 knots and is good at 10. It's fully powered up at 15 knots and maxed at 18. My 105 just fits ahead of the spreaders, has the vertical battens that Loren describes and also inhaulers that pull the clew inboard for a tighter sheeting angle and more low end power. The inhaulers were recommended by my sailmaker to boost low end power and reduce the need for sail changes which are a royal pain with the sail sizes on the E36RH.

Bill,

What size sail are you dealing with? Generally, a +/- 130 is the largest size genoa that sailmakers will recommend for partial furling. Newer sails have lots of features to make partial furling work better. An older Dacron sail will have stretched out of shape and will get more stretched as the wind increases.

A major decision is do you want to go with two sails and the cost, storage and changing hassles or just a single sail and partially furl it. Our area penalizes the single 130 more than others because we have a lot of 0 - 8 knot wind days where a 150 is optimal and a 130 is underpowered. Having the second reef is not going to help a 150 or 130 function over 20 knots. I'd have my 105 and a single reef at 20 kts. This is where a good sailmaker will ask how you use your boat and figure out what set of sails makes the most sense.

Mark

 

[markvone]

MJS,

Bacon's in Annapolis has a large selection of used sails. There website has an on-line search page where you can see what they have sorted for your boat:

http://baconsails.com/bacon/select_sailboat.php

Anything from 90 - 105 LP will work. The sails I saw were ~ 20% the cost of a new laminate 105 at boat show discounts.

For sails near 105 LP you will need to make sure the leach clears your spreaders. Also, you'll need to make sure you can sheet the sail that far forward and inboard (see how far forward your jib track goes). It gets harder (more forward) as you go smaller (toward 90 LP).

Mark

 

[mjsouleman]

sailing and sails

Thanks Mark,

If you ever get down to Deale, Herrington Harbor look me up.

MJS

 

[alcodiesel]

Mark, it's a 138. Understood: Having the second reef is not going to help a 150 or 130 function over 20. ​

 

[Christian Williams]

Here's my perspective, no racing.

Max 120 of J genoa* with foam luff. Even in basic Dacron, these roller-furl beautifully right down to 10 percent in 40 knots.

Yes, a bigger genoa is good for light air and gaining one knot over the 120 size in 90 degrees heat, a cross slop and a thunderhead approaching. Me, I just turn on the engine. That's my 150 genoa.

Also, with a draggy fixed three-blade prop, we're dragging a bucket through the jellyfish anyhow.

On the mainsail I like two reefs (or three), but the comments above (re frequency of reefing) are persuasive for family cruising. Especially with a new foam-luff genny.

Old sails may look fine in 8 knots, but in 20 knots they bag out, lay the boat on its side, and turn even an Ericson into a pig.

*I often sail with the genoa furled to 90 degrees. Boat tacks like a dinghy. Doesn't drag the sail across the stays. Hardly notice the loss in speed. But you need a modern sail for that.

 

[Ian S]

+1 on Christians perspective. I find it extremely difficult to believe that people have sailed for even one season and not taken a second reef. brand new flat sails and I'm ready at 14-17 app. I would not even consider a main w/o a second reef and if it were a single reef main the reef would be placed at the second (deep position) you can't have to little power but you sure as hell can have to much. In force 5 you'll with you could send the rig overboard theres so much windage. I have owned and sailed extensively on the following Ericsons. 32-3 ,29,27,39 flush deck,38-200,34-10, 35-2
Without exception I would consider every one of these boats to be on the tender side. In other words light displacement cruisers or performance cruisers if you prefer. Most all were designed for lapper headsails with the exception of the frac rigged 30. I have found that 125% - 135% on a foam luff seems to be the best compromise for a roller headsail. I hate to be critical guys but if were reefing only once a season or a few times in multiple years than you are either sailing, heeled well to far over, or on "your ear"(slow!) and overpowered (slow) lost significant pointing ability (slow) (ton of weather helm (slow), not sailing much, or only going out on idealic days with incredibly stable and predictable weather. Discouraging a second reef or considering it as optional to me is like not wearing a seatbelt, or throwing my fire extinguishers overboard because I'm surrounded by water. The Ericsons designs are consider by todays standard to be somewhat high aspect an overpowered main can really require a ton of standing helm which is hard on everything particularly the helmsman. Give the boat and crew a break and get that puppy back on her feet say around 12 degrees of heel. if you want to carry excess sail cause your racing, ya better plan on really heading up in the puffs otherwise you'll just be making a bunch of leeway while helping clean bird poop of the toe rails!
Sorry I went a little astray.

Capt. Ian

 

[e38 owner]

From Seth in in 2013

This is a very good compromise size. If your typical conditions are under 10-12 knots, go with 135. If they are often above that, go a bit smaller (125-130). Sure, in under 5-6 knots of breeze you will not be fully powered up, but by the time you have 7-8 and above, this will give great performance as long as the wind is on the beam or forward.

A great solution for sailing on broader reacher and runs, AND for close reaching in lighter air (under 10 depending on angle) is an Asymmetrical Spinnaker. You can use it as a very large and light genoa when you are up for best performance (except really upwind/tacking), and of course as you get past a beam reach where the genoa (any genoa, regardless of size), starts to get behind the mainsail and not do much for you, this sail will fly out and away from the main and get you going. For a coastal cruiser, a mid size genoa and A-sail should be all you really need to get as much potential from the boat as most cruisers expect and want.

Happy trails!

I only have 1 reef it is a large one though about a reef and 1/2
I lake sail so never more than about 8 miles from the slip. Gusty winds though
Have 135. Can be furled. Often sail headsail only.
Boat is a much newer design than the 27

 

[Loren Beach]

Earlier discussion of Ericson's and optimal sail combos.
http://www.ericsonyachts.org/infoexchange/showthread.php?3963-Ideal-Wind-Speed-amp-When-to-Reef

 

[bgary]

(from Seth)For a coastal cruiser, a mid size genoa and A-sail should be all you really need to get as much potential from the boat as most cruisers expect and want.

Have to say, I am a complete convert to this line of thought.

As a racer, I was all about the horsepower. Fast is fun, and there are always more bodies we can throw on the rail to get the boat flat.

But as a nascent cruiser.... I *love* my 135 (it's actually closer to a 132 now, because I had it re-cut slightly to fix a hooked leech), it is easy to sail, easy to balance the sail-plan, and more than enough horsepower for getting around the Sound. And for off the wind, a light "A2" shaped 165% asymmetrical tacked on the anchor roller is awesome-sauce.

Bruce