Sail reef design

[tenders]

I hate to be critical guys but if were reefing only once a season or a few times in multiple years than you are either sailing, heeled well to far over, or on "your ear"(slow!) and overpowered (slow) lost significant pointing ability (slow) (ton of weather helm (slow), not sailing much, or only going out on idealic days with incredibly stable and predictable weather. Discouraging a second reef or considering it as optional to me is like not wearing a seatbelt, or throwing my fire extinguishers overboard because I'm surrounded by water.

Capt. Ian

Oh please. None of the above, except possibly "slow," but these are sailboats we're talking about. By all means put the second set of reef points in if you like. In 26 years of sailing my boat, often with inexperienced crew or other individuals who are not looking for a rigging adventure if the wind pipes up, putting in a second reef is impractical. If there's enough wind to indicate a second reef, the main is simply going to be taken down and the roller furling genoa will be adjusted to suit. My boat sails quite decently under genoa alone and quite poorly under main alone. Perhaps there would be a different perspective were this situation the reverse, as I think it is with J-24s and the like which seem to do pretty well with jibs dropped on deck.

 

[Ian S]

I should have prefaced my previous post by saying that I owned a 1979 E27 for about 8 years and a second or deep reef IMO was as essential as the sail itself.
Seth has a solution that I have employed (when inherited) which is a sail that has a single reef placed so that the reef is essentially in very deep position.

As I understand it most sail makers typically set reefs at intervals of approx. 12-18% reductions of luff length. Now depending on the
E dimension and roach of the sail this will equate to different % of sail area relative to the luff length when expressing those percentages as a matter of sail area.

A single reef to me would only be acceptable for near shore work. I Like Christian agree that for off shore work a sail with a 3rd reef is even more desirable and some would argue essential.

With all due respect Tenders If your second reef is impractical to take than the boat has not been properly rigged to achieve that reef, and that may very well be the case as many boats were not. In complete honestly it takes me (sailing single handed) under 2 minutes to tuck in a second reef. With a single crew member available to handle the halyard I would estimate it at around a minute to a minute 30 .Most booms are set up with slab reefing and set up for two reefs. You are correct in that the IOR designs with large headsails and small high aspect mains will typically sail well under headsail alone in moderate conditions. Now one must understand that we are changing the C/E greatly when eliminating the main. I would say as long as the boat still wants to head up when hard pressed this would be an acceptable sail plan, but will she still behave so if the wind picks up another 5-10-15 kts?
Now that being said there are many boats (dependent on head sail size and design) that will want to bear away when pressed due to the center of effort being so far forward and that is flat out dangerous!. ALL sail boats have built in weather helm for a reason, so the will safely head to weather. If you get pushed down in high wind due to a large imbalance in sail plan you run a high risk of wiping out or getting knocked down and that will scare any sailor enough to seriously reconsider as to how much sail to carry and how to carry it.

Kind Regards: Capt. Ian

 

[supersailor]

Out here in the Straights, we seem to have two wind conditions, too little or too much. Some times it goes from too little to too much in incredibly short periods of time. One time last summer, with a first time sailor, we managed to drift about 4 miles out in three hours. After turning around, we saw a dark line on the water. Within 5 minutes it was blowing 25+. Being prepped at all times saves panic.

Terra Nova has a 130 on the forestay and double reefs in the main. There is also a "70" in the aft locker. I say "70" as it is more like a 130 for a E-27 than a blade. It is also of heavy material. Rounding out the inventory are two spinnakers. One a 1/2oz ghoster and the other a 1 1/2oz triradial.

The 130 provides enough drive in lighter conditions. It is also heavy enough that it can be carried in somewhat heavier conditions. The spinnakers provide the light wind down wind oomph ( to make an understatement)! The triradial is carried in an ATM sleeve for easy dousing.

I normally pull in the first reef at about 16kn, not because the boat is really overpowered, but to ease weather helm. At 20kn, I have a choice. Take in the second reef and roll the jib in a little or sail with the 130 only. The boat doesn't seem to care which way to go. The speed is the same either way. If there are steep seas with lots of water coming over the bow, I go with the double reef in the main and rolled up jib as that raises the jib higher on the forestay so less water gets dumped in it. If the seas are calmer, I go with the full 130 and the completely furled main. Why bother with two sails when one is doing just as well. At about 25-28kn, its time for the "70" only. The sail is also furlable also and has a padded luff. The boat loves this sail in higher winds. A year ago last November, I came over the top of San Juan Island in steady 35kn winds with gusts in the low 40's on a beam reach doing 9.75kn on the knot meter . At Roach Harbor, it was a real job furling tat little "70".

The 150 is a mighty light air sail. They are built out of light weight materials to get max shape in zither conditions. In heavier air, they have a tendency to "blow out". That is stretch and not return to the original shape. I personally would not carry one in over about 10-12kn of air. Not worth risking that expensive sail.

Having the second reef in the main opens more options for heavy air balance. It's nice to be able to balance in different ways. PS. The 34 really likes the 130.

 

[Christian Williams]

Bob,

Can you change down to the 70 as conditions are deteriorating? I have not found this practical without an experienced foredeck crew of several people.

Also, regarding jib alone, on the 32-3 I had 50 hours on a beam reach in 30-40 knots and 12-foot cresting seas. It was furled to about 20 percent of J. We slogged along at 3 knots under vane steering. It was uncomfortable and wet, with crests breaking over the topsides, but the boat held course.

 

[supersailor]

Christian,

The answer has been yes but not easily. I use the autohelm when shortening. There are several possibilities that can be used. The jib can be dropped which is a pain as there are not a lot of good handholds except under where the jib comes out of the track. A jib downhaul can help a little but it doesn't do the job like it does with a hanked on jib where it pulls it all the way down and keeps it there while you unhank it. The boat has to be high enough on the wind to drop it inside the lifelines. Even the 130 is a mighty big sail on the 34. That may mean running the engine (gasp) during the change. I have had some success with doing an inside/outside running the 70 up on the empty track with the other sail still pulling. This seems to work best with the new sail going up behind the one to be removed. Extra help is a plus always. This is a young man's game.

I have considered a second forestay that can be set using a lever to tension it at the bow and changing the small sail to hanks. The second forestay could be stored just ahead of the hatch protector at the front of the mast when not in use. I would lose the ability to roll the 70 but could provide a true storm sail instead. It also would not have to go to the top of the mast as these sails have short luffs. he advantage would be the ability to fully furl the big jib then go forward and set the second forestay with the flip of a lever then hank on the small jib while it is still in the bag. The roller furling is convenient but not optimal in all conditions. Now that I am on the north side of 70, these things are coming more into consideration. I have to admit now that, if the forecast is for above 30kn, I just put on the 70 before leaving the dock or anchor. The problem is when the weatherman is wrong (that seems to be all the time). I am a firm believer in reef early, reef often. The stress is a lot less.

When I was beam reaching in the high wind, I was powered up with the 70 up and I was at the helm the whole time. A wind vane or the autohelm would not have been adequate at that time. Sure was fun, though. The seas, while confused, were not like those you encountered. I have not sailed on a 32-3 but my observation is that the reserve buoyancy is not nearly as much as the 34. Your 38 should be impressive.

Other experiences would be greatly appreciated here.

 

[alcodiesel]

Ok, back to my original post. Here's a pic of my main. See where the only reef is? Does it look like it's pretty deep, like between a normal first and second reef?

 

[markvone]

Bill,

Typical mainsail reef points reduce the size by 20% (40% for second). This can vary a lot.

With the E27 std rig, P = 28 and E = 10, the main is calculated as a 140 sq ft right triangle (1/2 x P x E). It's actually a little bigger (+/- 10%) due to leach roach extending beyond the triangle.

So, 20% is 28 sq ft, assume 10 feet on the long side of the reef area rectangle and the reef cringle would be ~ 2.8 feet up from the boom for a "typical" first reef.

A deep (reef and a half) 30% reef would be 42 sq ft, ~ 4.2 feet up.

Grab a tape measure .


Mark

 

[G Kiba]

Yes! It is a pretty deep reef. It's a little lower than my second reef point. For a lot of years I would under sail my E27 by reefing too early. The mainsail on the E27 is relatively small and the boat can handle a moderate amount of wind with the proper size head sail for the conditions. In my neck of the woods, spring and summer bring winds of 15-25 on a regular basis. I have a 90% and 80% head sail that see frequent use. In fact, I don't own anything bigger. I find other things to do when there is no wind. At 18-23, I put the first reef in. Above that, the second. And... when thing get really bad (35-40), I drop the head sail and go on the double reefed main. This has happened to me a few times being caught on a day that the wind just kept building. Not the best picture, but you get the idea. That's the Carquinez bridge in the background on a recent trip to SF Bay.

 

[Loren Beach]

When the picture showed in reply 26, I sent the thread over to the owner of our local NorthSails loft.
Kerry was kind enough to have a look and reply to me. Hope this moves the answer/information along a little bit.
His comments:
Hi Loren,

Usually the sail designers will have standard reef placements that are dependent on slide placement, how many battens, and full length or short battens. Commonly the first reef for a full length batten sail will be at 15% of luff and the second reef 35% of luff. For short battens it may be at 12% and 24%.

You can ask for something different to fit your needs. Some people think you need 3 reefs for offshore sailing, but many sailors would rather go with two reefs that are spaced farther apart than a 3 reef sail so that they have less hardware, better sail with less patching and they just rather take bigger steps when reefing.

It could be that the picture of the main in the forum was for somebody that didn't want the extra expense of a second reef or the hardware. Many times a cruiser just wants to shorten a lot of sail if they need to reef.

 

[alcodiesel]

Grant, Loren, Mark, et al: Thank you. This has moved my understanding-what-I-have needle quite a bit.

 

[bolbmw]

As a new sailor, the information you provided will help me be a better master of Discovery. The poor girl wants to run and your advice will help me lead her.

So, I will be looking for a 105 jib (asking for leads here).

For what it's worth, on my 30+ I find that the 130 genoa and full main are good to about 15kts. Past that point I am depowering the main as much as I can with backstay and outhaul and have a furled the 130 a bit, but honestly should have already put in the first reef on the main. I find with a furled down 130 and the second reef I am good to 25kt but the sail shape is quite poor on the genoa.

I had a high cut 95 jib made. With that sail and a second reef I can comfortably sail in up to 35kt. Anything past that and the 95 is getting furled and I start wishing for a third reef. As long as the sea state has not built, I find the combination quite manageable. If I know the forecast is calling for 15-20+ I don't bother with the 130 unless I have competent crew onboard to help do a sail change later. Pic below from a 35kt day with the 95 and second reef before the sea built.

 

[Loren Beach]

Great photos!
The class emblem on the face of the mast is a nice touch as well.

 

[alcodiesel]

"A deep (reef and a half) 30% reef would be 42 sq ft, ~ 4.2 feet up."

Grab a tape measure .

Mark[/QUOTE]

Hey Mark, thank you for the calculations . I measured 4'3" to the reef. So it's a pretty deep reef.

I got a reef quote for $412. complete. If i can get it to them by Weds. They said they can get to work on it by the next day. hmmmmm. tempting.

 

[alcodiesel]

So I have done nothing.
The sailmaker said people are getting one reef around here. Cruisers, I guess. With the knowledge that one reef is not so much of an aberration and that it's kind of a 1.5 reef I have been sailing this week in 15 to 20kt winds and thinking I can get this boat properly trimmed with this reef. And I have. With the main flattened, reefed and just under 100% of the jib flying I can keep her nicely balanced- helm fairly neutral, heel less than 20 degrees. Even in hard puffs. Close reaches.

Thanks guys for showing me I can live without a second reef- at least for the sailing I do. Still if I was going offshore I think I would go ahead and get one installed- or get 2 or 3 on a new main in the future.

I love sailing around here.
Is this heaven? No, it's Chesapeake Bay.
Chesapeake Bay is sailing heaven for me.

 

[G Kiba]

I can see that working for you! Like I said... The main on the 27 is relatively small for how tuff the boat is. You just need to bite that lower lip a bit more sometimes.