Sailomat vs. Monitor

Sven

Seglare
At long last we are getting close to getting a world-cruiser Ericson, over the next few days, weeks or months.

Genetically I'd be inclined to select a Sailomat as the windvane (autopilot) but since we have open minds I'd like to know how it might compare to the Monitor when installed on an Ericson. The keel will be either a fin (hmmm) or somewhat more traditional 39B with a longer keel and skeg.

Insights ?

Thanks,

-Sven
 

Loren Beach

O34 - Portland, OR
Senior Moderator
Blogs Author
One of the Olson 34 owners that checks in on this board occasionally is Bruce Nesbit. He has a Sailomat and seems to like it a lot, having done a single-handed race to HA with it.
Because of the clean and well-engineered way it attaches to the transom, that would be my first choice also.

FWIW....

Loren

ps: more discussion in this thread: http://www.woodenboat.com/forum//showthread.php?t=18640
 
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Phil MacFarlane

Member III
I have a monitor and have been very pleased with it. I have done three single handed trans pacs on Sail a Vie my E-35 II with the monitor. The fist time was in 2000 and the monitor was the only self steering device I had.
I'm not sure about the sailomat vane but some other brands use cast aluminum parts which seem to fail at the worst times.
I don't know if you know who Skip Alan is but he has quite a sailing resume and he was the overall winner in this years single handed trans pac.
He was caught in a seven day gale off the California Coast on his return to Santa Cruz from Kauai Hi. and ended up scuttling his boat Wild Flower. A boat he had built himself over 30 years ago and had sailed some 60 thousand miles in. He reported that his new sailomat windvane was useless. I will try to attach part one of his story. The rest can be found at sfbaysss.org forums.

Monitors were the only windvane used by single handed round the world racers when such racers used wind vanes.

Best Phil MacFarlane

Quote...

Dear Friends and Loved Ones,

The following is an abbreviated excerpt from WILDFLOWER's Ship's Log. I will be glad to attempt to fill in details or answer any questions posted to this Forum thread. But this is the best I can do on short notice as I travel home by car from S.CAL.


On Saturday, 8/23, 10 days after leaving Hanalei, we were halfway home to Santa Cruz with 1190 miles to go. We had passed the Pacific High, and were running in the Westerlies at latitude 38-38 x longitude 147 -17. So far, the passage had been going well, my sixth return passage from Hawaii aboard WILDFLOWER. But an ominous note on the thrice daily weather fax charts was the notation “GALE” between our position and the Pacific Coast.

I began to plan for this possible gale by increasing latitude, slowing down, and closely monitoring projected GRIB files out to 144 hours. It appeared from all forecasts that we needed to slow down for at least 48 hours to let the gale ahead abate. However, it is against my instincts to slow a boat down, and so with difficulty I reefed the main and dropped the jib in 8 knots of wind, reducing speed to a sedate 3.5 knots in smooth seas.

On Wednesday, 8/27, the morning GRIB file showed the area of most wind ahead was between 124 and 128 degrees, with no weather abatement until at least Monday, 9/1 earliest. Dwight on NA NA, 450 miles ahead, had reported gusts of 42.5 knots from the north between latitude 127-128 and having to run off under storm jib 80 miles. NA NA reported 20 foot seas the previous night near 37 x 124-30. I hoped that WILDFLOWER, by being at the latitude 40 degrees, would allow us to run off 180 miles to the latitude of Santa Cruz, should conditions worsen.

On Friday, 8/29, at sunset near 40 x 130, conditions began to rapidly deteriorate. I changed to the #4 (75% short hoist) and storm staysail, dropping the main completely.

The following day, Saturday, 8/30, with Santa Cruz 365 miles on a bearing of 095 T, we were having to run off due south (180 T) in winds 30-35 knots. By 1530, the sail combination proved too much, and I dropped the #4, flying the storm staysail (39 sq.feet) and towing a 30” diameter metal hooped drogue. It was uncomfortable, windy, and rolly that night, with the cockpit filling about every five minutes, and the boat being knocked down to 70 degrees at least half a dozen times. WILDFLOWER's shallow cockpit and oversize drains allowed full drainage in about 90 seconds, and this was not a problem.

The electric Auto Helm 1000+ tiller pilot was doing an amazing job steering, as it was being continuously drenched, even submerged. The Sail-O-Mat windvane was useless preventing or correcting breaking wave induced broaches and I retracted its oar to avoid fouling the drogue rode.

On Sunday, 8/31, the wind was steady 30-35, w/ higher gusts and a confused wave train from the NW, N, and NE. At 0915 I winched in the drogue to change from a hi-tech spinny sheet to stretchy nylon anchor line. Unfortunately, I found the drogue had split, and was no longer effective. I deployed my spare drogue, but without a metal hoop, it would periodically collapse astern in a breaking crest.

At noon, it looked like the gale was lessening. I left the safety of the cabin, and with two safety harnesses affixed to the windward rail, began to hand steer eastward on a reach with the #4. It was mogul sailing at its best, having to radically bear away to avoid hissing 8-12' breaking crests on the top of 15-30 foot seas.

At sunset I again went below with the Auto Helm tiller pilot continuing to steer nicely under #4 jib. Not long after, the wind came on to blow from the NNW, and the seas began to build further. That night I stayed suited up below with full foulies, headlamp, and harness, ready to dash out the hatch and take the tiller if the autopilot failed, and we subsequently rounded up. In addition, I dropped the storm staysail, as we were running too fast at 6-9 knots. Under bare poles DDW, the speed was better at 5-7 knots.

What followed ultimately played into the following day's events. During the long night, my third in this particular gale, breaking crests would poop the boat about every five minutes, filling the cockpit and surging against the companionway hatch boards. Even though I had gone to lengths for many years to insure fire hose watertight integrity of the companionway hatch, I found the power of the breaking wave crests slamming the boat would cause water to forcefully spray around the edges of the hatchboards and into the cabin.

During the long wait for daylight, I had more than enough time to ponder what might happen if the autopilot was damaged or was washed off its mount. I had two spare tiller pilots. But it would take several minutes, exposed in the cockpit, on my knees, to hook up a replacement in the cockpit, on a dark night, when the boat was being periodically knocked down and the cockpit swept.

In addition, I pondered the fate of the DAISY that had been lost in this spring's Lightship Race, presumably crushed and sunk by a large breaking wave. I also reminded myself I was responsible for not only my own life, but was also a family care giver at home.

There was no doubt that if WILDFLOWER's tiller pilot was lost that we would round up and be at the mercy of these breaking waves, some of which I estimated to be in the vicinity of 25-35 feet, and as big as I hadn't seen since the '79 Fastnet Race storm on IMP.

The anxiety and stress of this night, with the whine of the wind in the rigging, the wave crests slamming into the hatch boards, and the 70 degree knockdowns that would launch me across the cabin, created serious doubts that we could continue this for another night, much less the 3-4 days the conditions were expected to continue.

The boat was fine, and had suffered no serious damage. My physical health was OK, but I could see with minimum sleep that my decision making could be beginning to be compromised

At 0715 the following morning, Monday, 9/1, I Sat phoned my long time sailing friend, ham radio contact, router, navigator and weatherman, Joe Buck in Redondo Beach. Joe and I had maintained 2x/day ham radio schedule since leaving Hanalei, and he had instant internet access to all forecast weather and wave charts. I explained the current situation to Joe: that I'd had a difficult night, and wasn't sure I could safely continue. Joe's weather info had the highest wind and wave overhead on my current drift southward continuing for at least another three days, with continuing gale force winds and 18-22' significant wave height.

I asked Joe for help in some difficult decision making I had to do. First, would he phone San Francisco Coast Guard Search and Rescue (SAR), and query what the protocol was for asking for assistance, all the while making sure the CG understood I was not in trouble and was not asking for help at this time. (Coast Guard NMC Pt. Reyes, Kodiak, and Hono were not answering my radio calls on their published 4, 6, 8, and 12 mg freks, both simplex and duplex.)

Joe called back an hour later (0830) on ham radio 40 meters and said that Lt. Saxon at SAR reported no military assets within 200 miles or 20 hours, that WILDFLOWER was 200 miles beyond helo range, but that there was an inbound container ship TORONTO coming in my direction at an undetermined distance.

Joe helped me to understand if the boat were lost, I would likely be lost also. But if that I left WILDFLOWER in advance, that only the boat would be lost. I told Joe of my hesitation of putting my life in the hands of a possibly foreign crew on a big commercial ship during a transfer off WILDFLOWER in these conditions, especially at night. We agreed that a decision had to be arrived at soon, before 1130, and before TORONTO passed by.

I spent the next hour, sitting on the cabin sole on my life raft, debating whether to ask for assistance in leaving my beloved WILDFLOWER. “FLEUR” was my home, consort, and magic carpet that I had built 34 years ago. I cried, pounded my fist, looked out through the hatch numerous times at the passing wave mountains, remembered all the good times I had shared with WILDFLOWER. And came to a decision.

At 1115 I called Joe back and told him to again call Lt. Saxon at SAR and inform her that I was asking for assistance. Joe called back and informed me that TORONTO was 5-6 hours away, and that SAR needed to hear from me directly as to my request.

At 1200, like a gopher popping out of its hole, I slid the hatch open to get a clear Satphone signal, and called SAR. Lt. Saxon already knew my details and position, and only asked “What are you requesting?” I replied, “I am asking for assistance to be removed from my boat.”

We kept the conversation short and to the point, due to my exposure topsides with the Satphone. She said the MSC TORONTO would be requested to divert, that I was NOT to trigger the EPIRB, but that I was to take the EPIRB with me when I left WILDFLOWER. Contrary to published reports, at no time did I call “PAN PAN,” and no com schedule was kept with the Coast Guard, although I did check in with Joe every 30 minutes on ham radio.

Lt. Saxon also said that if I left my boat, she would be considered “derelict” and a hazard to navigation. I assured her I would not leave my boat floating or derelict.

Continued...........
Last edited by sleddog : 09-11-2008 at 10:36 AM.
 

Guy Stevens

Moderator
Moderator
Cape horn

Simply the best I have been on passage with. I have been on passages with most of them...

The cape horn just works, doesn't try to jump off the back of the boat, and really steers well, even without the helm being balanced before you set it.

Much better than the Monitor, The Aries, and a few others I have been bunk mates with.

Guy
:)
 

Phil MacFarlane

Member III
Cape Horn is the best looking for sure. We sailed to Mexico on a Hans Christen 33 that had one but we didn't use it.
There is a film staring Yves Gelinas as he sailed his Alberg 30 "Jean-du-Sud" "around the world single handed. He used a Cape Horn wind vane. I not positive but I think he is the creator of said vane?

great flick, one of my all time favorites.

Phil
 

Mikebat

Member III
I've looked into vanes and think I can make a decent summary of the three designs mentioned here.

The Cape Horn requires some significant engineering to install. Its actuator arm attaches to and turns the quadrant directly, which of course turns your main rudder. This is why the installations look so clean: no external driving lines to rig to the wheel.

The Monitor uses a rig of lines and pulleys to connect its actuator arm to your main wheel, and steers using your main rudder by turning the wheel. The rigging for this is strung in your cockpit while the Monitor is engaged. Might be inconvenient for some.

The Sailomat has its own rudder, and is a completely self-contained self-steering unit. It uses no part of the boat's main steering system. You lock the main wheel while the Sailomat is engaged, and it steers the boat with its own rudder. So it also amounts to a spare rudder, which you can use to steer if the main rudder is damaged. Nice bonus.

The Cape Horn is the least expensive, but probably the most labor-intensive to install. You will cut a hole in your transom and glass-in a PVC pipe for the vane to attach to, and for its steering linkage to pass through to the wheel's quadrant. It's ready to use at a moment's notice, and can be disengaged as easily and doesn't need to be stowed when not in use.

The Monitor is much easier to install, but requires some rigging in the cockpit, which has to be removed and stowed when it is not in use. It's more expensive than a Cape Horn, but easier to install since the only holes to drill are for attaching the vane's "oil derrick" frame.

The Sailomat simply bolts to the transom and is ready to use. It doesn't need to be stowed out of the way when not in use, just lift the vane and steering rudder out of the water. Unlike the other two vanes, it can be used at the same time as the regular auto-pilot, which I've read helps going downwind, where vanes have the least leverage due to the least apparent wind. It's the most expensive of the three but comes with some significant benefits, like the aforementioned auxilliary rudder capability, and it's compatible with simultaneous use of the autopilot.

I should add, all three vanes are the pendulum type, which is the only type that seems reasonable to consider. The steering force comes from a oar on the end of a pendulum, placed in the water, which is twisted by the vane in the air, and the water rushing past the oar on the pendulum provides the force to turn the quadrant, the wheel or the aux rudder. This type is to be distinguished from the vanes that use the air vane directly to turn the wheel or aux rudder. Needless to say the pendulum types are able to provide a much greater steering force than air vanes, especially in light air.
 
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Loren Beach

O34 - Portland, OR
Senior Moderator
Blogs Author
getting the details correct

The Sailomat, like the competitors, is a servo-pendulum.
Here is a little cut-n-paste tech bit from their site:
_________________________________________
" Principle: Servo-pendulum, with pull/pull line circuit connecting to yacht's wheel or tiller.
Design: State-of-the-art, new design principle.
Winglet-geometry for line circuit connection.
Slanted spherical arm linkage. (Sailomat patents)
Materials: Marine-grade aluminum alloys.
Mounting: Off-center universal base.
Compact footprint: 200 mm width, 240 mm height.
Servo blade: Aluminum wing profile.
Chord 170 mm. Length 0.9-1.3 m
Air vane: Polycarbonate material
Swing ability: 148 deg to side, out of water.
Overload safety: Shear pin.
Corrosion protection: Zink sacrifice anode
Total height: Typically 3.1-3.6 m
Weight: 22-27 kg

Warranty: 3 years, limited.
Patents and Design: Dr Stellan Knöös, SAILOMAT
Introduction dates:
Basic SAILOMAT 700: 2005
Upgraded SAILOMAT 760: 2008 "
_______________________________

One thing that I like about their engineering is the clean attachment to the transom. This is in stark contrast to the "jungle gym" of tubing used by a Monitor. To give the Monitor its due, I have done a five-day trip down the coast to SF on a boat with a Monitor, and can certainly vouch for the usefulness of a servo-pendulum vane. (After 36 hours of gale winds off Mendocino the air paddle did fracture, however, and had to be replaced.)

Loren
 
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Sven

Seglare
Cape Horn looks very interesting

Thanks for the pointer to the Cape Horn. I have seen them in person but didn't know their name or how they are "wired". Very interesting and appealing !

As for windvane steering when running before the wind in a gale with a drogue and incredible seas ... I wonder if any of them would do a very good job ?

It was interesting to see that the TillerPilot was up to the task, a 1000 at that !

Thanks,


-Sven
 

Sven

Seglare
Hi Loren,

New wind vane project with photos, on Wally's fine site.

Interesting that he mentioned the "monitor knot" being a pain. In my earlier searching I came across a discussion where the owner of a vane (monitor) had bolted two clam cleats to the wheel adapter and said it worked so well that the manufacturer was going to suggest that for future customers. He also had one green and one red line and it looked like it would be trivial to adjust it. Of course, now I can't find that page and picture.

For reference, from cruiserforum:
Some Manufacturers websites:
Airies Windvane: http://www.selfsteer.dk/
Aries Spares: http://www.ariesvane.com/
Autosteer (Hydra SW): http://www.autosteer.com/html/autosteer_frameset.htm
Cape Horn Integrated Self-Steering: http://www.caphorn.com/index.html
Fleming Self Steering Systems: http://www.flemingselfsteering.com.au/
Home-Made Windvane: http://gamma.nic.fi/~poltsi/
Hydrovane: http://www.hydrovane.com/
Monitor Windvanes (Scanmar): http://www.selfsteer.com/
Mr. Vane: http://www.mrvane.com/
Neptune Servo-Pendulum Windvane: http://www.windvane.co.uk/
Plastimo Navik Servo-Pendulum Windvane: http://www.plastimo.com/pdf/navik(uk).pdf
Sailomat: http://www.sailomat.com/
Sea Feather: http://www.sea-feather.com/
Steersman: http://www.steersman.net/
Vectavane: http://www.vectavane.co.uk/
Voyager Windvane: http://www.voyagerwindvanes.com/Voyager/index.aspx
Windpilot Hamburg: http://www.windpilot.com/en/Ra/rawelen.html
Windvane plans from Hartley Boats: http://www.hartley-boats.com/selfst.html


-Sven
 

Sven

Seglare
Simply the best I have been on passage with. I have been on passages with most of them...

The cape horn just works, doesn't try to jump off the back of the boat, and really steers well, even without the helm being balanced before you set it.

It is beautifully engineered ... as simple as possible ! I finally crawled into the aft lazarette to measure last weekend.

That is what we are going with and Yves Gélinas at CapeHorn Marine products has been most helpful, answering our questions as fast as we think of them.


-Sven
 

Akavishon

Member III
Sven, I understand the installation is not trivial ... are you DIY or having a local yard do the install for you? And, if I may ask, what do you estimate the final bill to be (equipment+installation+etc)?

I'm also strongly considering the Cape Horn ... seems like a no-brainer if you want to go long distances. My dilemma is whether to spend all that cash to beef up my E32, or upgrade to a larger platform altogether.

Zoran
 

Sven

Seglare
Hi Zoran,

Sven, I understand the installation is not trivial ... are you DIY or having a local yard do the install for you? And, if I may ask, what do you estimate the final bill to be (equipment+installation+etc)?

The installation doesn't look that bad. Drill the hole and glass in the tube. Support the tube end solidly with the two struts. Mount the blocks taking the lines to the quadrant. Figure out how to attach to the quadrant and lead the lines to the control point at the helm. Support the tower against the pulpit. I'm sure reality will be a lot less clean but it looks easy compared to the competition ?

If I found someone locally who had done it I might be tempted but there is also a certain advantage in doing it yourself so you know the parts when something goes wrong.

I'm guessing under $5K complete.

I think you'd be hard pressed to find a better compromise than an Ericson.



-Sven
 

Akavishon

Member III
Sven - I've decided to move ahead with CapeHorn, will be placing an order shortly. Are you making progress?

Also, I think you're right, the installation doesn't look as bad as I first thought. That said - I'm not very mechanically talented, and I am very creative in finding ways to screw up the simplest projects ... let's hope for the best :egrin:

I've built a cardboard model and completed the measurements yesterday. Yves recommends glassing mounting pads into the inside of the hull, for the support struts and the 1st pair of blocks, but I'm afraid that may not work for me. The stern lazarette has a rather soft FG liner which is not well bonded to the hull ... it may not make sense to glass the pads to the liner, and I'm rather reluctant to cut into it.

Has anyone completed this installation? Hints or photos of your setup would be very helpful ...

TIA - Zoran
 

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Sven

Seglare
Zoran,

Nice mock-up !

I see what you mean about the liner and having to cut through it. We don't have that liner to contend with. I'd use a trim router or Dremel to cut the holes to make sure not to cut into the hull by mistake. I assume the liner doesn't come out ?

It also looks like you have to offset for the backstay chainplate ? I would ask Yves about that too; maintaining structural integrity.

Maybe Guy will weigh in with his CH experience and major hull work too ?



-Sven
 

Akavishon

Member III
Sven, I'm a software guy, I'll bend backwards to avoid any heavy-duty cutting :egrin: ... and the thought of drilling a fist-sized hole through my transom is inspiring regular nightmares.

Humor aside, I think it may be possible to avoid the liner/hull issue altogether. The cockpit bulkhead is very conveniently located, and I may be able to find some L-brackets and through-bolt them to the bulkhead so that the 1st pair of blocks would be suspended in the right position, and well-aligned with both quadrants. The only downside is that good stainless brackets are $$$ :esad:

I'm waiting to hear back from Yves about this idea. The 3" offset to starboard (avoiding the transom chainplate) is cool with CH, many boats have that issue, and CH can handle it.

Another open question is the height of the windvane tower - how tall does the thing need to be?

- Zoran
 
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