Shaft Alignment

C Masone

Perfect Storm
Since I have the cutless bearing and stuffing box removed is it as good, better or totally stupid to align the shaft by bolting the flange back to the transmission and adjust the motor mounts until the shaft is centered in the strut rather than the usual way of aligning the flanges with a feeler gauge?
 

Randy Rutledge

Sustaining Member
Don't stray

Use the feeler gauge method. Aligning the shaft end with the hole in the coupler is not going to work as the shaft will drop about half an inch when not supported and there is no way to find center of the shaft movement with it loose and also the angle of the hole to the shaft would not be determinable. Matching the transmission flange and coupler will give true alignment to the shaft position.
 

Guy Stevens

Moderator
Moderator
Asuming that you are out of the water don't bother

If your boat is out of the water don't bother, it is a waste of time.

The engine and shaft must be aligned after the boat is back in the water. The Forces on the hull cause the hull to shift differently when on the hard.

Once in the water, I check or align the shaft if there has been work on the engine or the shaft immidately before motoring anywhere, then again a week or so later. Most of the time there are adjustments at both times.

Thanks,
Guy
:)
 

rwthomas1

Sustaining Partner
Once in the water the exhaust hose will be in the way.

Then move the exhaust hose and adjust the alignment. I have this problem as well, I remove the hose and muffler for better access. The alternative is misalignment which is way more annoying. RT
 

e38 owner

Member III
thumping noise

I have a noise that is a lot like a tire being out of balance above 1800 rpm. I have not tried more rpm to see if it goes away don't want to cause damage. I have a martec prop. Does any anyone have any thoughts where to begin. The boat is in the water. The cutless looked ok before we launched and I don't remember any play in that or the martec blades. Thanks
 

Loren Beach

O34 - Portland, OR
Senior Moderator
Blogs Author
I have a noise that is a lot like a tire being out of balance above 1800 rpm. I have not tried more rpm to see if it goes away don't want to cause damage. I have a martec prop. Does any anyone have any thoughts where to begin. The boat is in the water. The cutless looked ok before we launched and I don't remember any play in that or the martec blades. Thanks

MarTec sells several models of both the folding props and their feathering props. Which one be yours?
http://www.martec-props.com/products.htm

If it's an old folder (they have been selling those for several decades) maybe the blades no longer open evenly for some reason. They can recondition and re-balance any of their products, FWIW.

Good luck.

Loren
 
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Maine Sail

Member III
If your boat is out of the water don't bother, it is a waste of time.

The engine and shaft must be aligned after the boat is back in the water. The Forces on the hull cause the hull to shift differently when on the hard.

Once in the water, I check or align the shaft if there has been work on the engine or the shaft immidately before motoring anywhere, then again a week or so later. Most of the time there are adjustments at both times.

Thanks,
Guy
:)

Guy,

I replace quite a few shafts, cutlass bearings, motor mounts and such and would suggest that it's not necessarily a "waste of time" to do an alignment on the hard. Getting a good rough alignment out of the water allows for many things you can't see when the boat is in the water. Doing a Sabre 34 shaft, cutlass, prop, spurs and coupling this week and will definitely get it as close as possible knowing that the in-water will be very minimal adjustments. Things like how the shaft is passing thought the shaft log and cutlass can't be seen in-water and changes made in-water can sometimes compound when working blind. Shaft thump is a big one I see when too many blind alignments have been done.

On most of the Ericson's I work on there is little change from in-water to out of water. While it can change it is usually about .003" - .006" or so on the Ericsons I've aligned. I've got an E-32 that I aligned earlier this summer and I will check it on the hard this winter while doing some engine work to her. I expect to see about .003" to .008" or less. The Ericson 34 I did last winter changed about .006", from out with no stick to in-water and tuned for racing. To put it in perspective this change, from in water to out on the E-34, was about the thickness of two sheets of copier paper.

The engine beds on many of these boats are robust and the shafts pretty short compared to some other fin keel boats. Some boats don't change at all, such as many of the Cape Dory's I work on. Fin keelers change the most, as a class. Still, nothing wrong with getting it as close as you can on land and making a couple of minute adjustments once in the water. The rough stuff, side to side and over all up/down is always the most difficult and is easy to tackle on land, if your already out..

Side to side, which is one of the toughest points to achieve, can often best be done without the cutlass in place. The biggest problem with many of the Ericsons is the three point motor mount which can cause a rolling cyclic vibration. I have the same exact issue with some of the early Sabre's that used a three point mount too. The later ones used a four point and those motors, even on the same model boat, can be made smooth as glass but the three point mounts not the same smoothness not matter how much time you spend. They tend to get that cyclic rhythm going even with in-water alignments to .001" to .002".....

I would say the worst in water to out I have seen was an O'day 34 at about .016". This is still not a huge change in the whole scheme of things but that boat was pretty flexy compared to most and 0.16 is a pretty bad vibration so you always want to re-check once tuned and she's been sailed for a week or so....
 

e38 owner

Member III
Could you provide a few definitions for the novice.

The shaft thump and cyclic vibration you discuss might be what I have occuring. Could you describe a little more so I can plan my attack. These issues I am having our not on my Ericson but on a Santa Cruz 40 ULDB. The hull has quite a bit more flex than my Ericson and the more info I have the better. I will be at the boat around the 1st and can get more info. I am not sure whether it is a three point or four point mount. My guess is a four because I do not remember see a mounting point in front like on my Ericson. I guess the questions are what is the most useful plan of attack. I have a Maxi Prop to replace the Martec, I have a new cutless, and I can have the alignment checked. The thing I don't understand about checking the aligment in the water is that it seems to me that there can be movement between the cutless through the pyi dripless to the shaft. How do you know what straight is to begin the process. .003 seems so small. We have a cnc router at work and use gauge to align it. This last year Irepalced the Cutless and rebuilt the prob on the Ericson. After I attack this one I should be a pro for checking the Ericson this summer. Thanks
 
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Loren Beach

O34 - Portland, OR
Senior Moderator
Blogs Author
The most recent alignment on our boat by my ace mechanic got the spec. down to half a thou. It's pretty hard to get the alignment closer than that.
We have a PSS, and coping with the spring-loaded bellows does add some fun to the whole thing.... coupler does not like to let the feeler gauge in.
:nerd:
 
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Guy Stevens

Moderator
Moderator
What I shoot for

I don't quite get what the purpose of trying to align an engine would be with the cutless bearing out of the boat. The cutless bearing is a bearing as close as possible to the end of the shaft. Cutless bearings suffer from a number of issues, the biggest is that they are installed in struts on many of the older Ericsons. These struts are no longer straight or perfectly round or in some cases even tight on the boats anymore. (You should fix or replace the strut if it is loose, or if any of these conditions prevent your from being able to align the engine).

Any time that your replace drive elements each of the replaced elements should be checked for correct alignment. Cutless bearings are not always perfect and struts do get bent from time to time.

A routine check of the alignment is something that should be done at least yearly. If you haven't done it in years, and suddenly remember to do it while you are out of the water, then go ahead and by all means check it. If you find it 1/2" an inch out, then you know that something somewhere is wrong, and you can look at all the drive elements when you are out of the water. However if you find it out .010 when out of the water, I wouldn't bother trying to fix that when you are on the hard. You are going to see some shifting when you put it back in the water, which may negate all your work. Of course if you are having other drive line issues, then I would check the alignment BEFORE you haul out, if the alignment is good and you still have issues, then start looking at other causes when you are out of the water and can see the entire drive line.


I align to less than .004" when doing an alignment, and generally find as Maine Sail does that most boats change at least that much in and out of the water.

If you are doing major work on the drive system then alignment as you are doing that work is always necessary. You would never put a new strut on without aligning everything to less than that .004 even being on the hard.

Every time you have been hauled out when you go back in you should take the time to realign the engine. Older Ericson's are pretty stout boats, and tend not to shift MUCH, but .004 is not much for a tolerance. Newer lighter built boats tend to shift more than older heavier built boats when put back into the water. The ULD crowd should check their engine alignment after any changes to the tuning of the rig. I have seen a number of ULD boats that putting some tension on the backstay changed the alignment a lot. What to do in a case like that? Shoot for the best that you can get, and tell the owner to try and remember to motor the boat with the backstay tight! :)


There are a number of things that can cause issues with vibration and noise under power; engine mounts, folding props, bent shafts, worn or incorrectly installed cutlass bearings, bent or loose struts, bad couplings etc. These are in addition to standard maintenance and checking of the alignment of the engine.

Guy
:)
 

Frank Langer

1984 Ericson 30+, Nanaimo, BC
Guy, a little more info please

Guy, at the end of your helpful post above you mention folding props as a possible cause of noise and vibration. Can you please elaborate on that--whether all folding props cause problems; if not, under what circumstances, etc. I have an E30+, on which I have carefully done alignment to about .002, but still get slight vibration, worse around 4.8 knots but a little bit at all speeds. It has the 3-mount universal 2 cylinder 16 hp engine (model 5416) and a 2005 Varifold geared 2-blade 13 x 9 folding propeller. As far as I can tell the strut and cutless bearing are in good condition, and I have the PSS dripless shaft seal.

Thanks for any additional information.

Frank
 
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Guy Stevens

Moderator
Moderator
Folding Props and engine mounts

The folding props, especially the ungeared ones, but also to some extent the geared ones, don't always open all the way. So they put some strange forces on the prop shaft. The geared ones are not generally the cause for this, but I have seen it happen. Also the other issue is that the pins in the folding props frequently are worn to the point that the blades flop side to side, on both geared and non geared. This can cause a significant vibration and noise.

Also the three mount engine mounting systems are not always the greatest for preventing vibrations and noise.

The condition of the engine mounts is always something to check. Especially on a three mount system. They have a lot of stress on them 25% more per mount than a four mount system.

Guy
:)
 

Frank Langer

1984 Ericson 30+, Nanaimo, BC
Thanks, Guy. The extra information is very helpful. Is there an easy way to check the motor mounts? There is no sign of cracks or degradation, but they are the originals....? :confused:

Thanks,
Frank
 

Maine Sail

Member III
I don't quite get what the purpose of trying to align an engine would be with the cutless bearing out of the boat.

I'm not trying to "align" just get the rough stuff dialed it. It all depends on what you have for tools. New cutlass bearings fit the shaft so tight that you often can't tell how it is passing though. Compound to that side loading of a stuffing box and it can make centering and alignment issues quite time consuming. I own a tool that allows me to pres out cutlass bearings and press them in over an in-place shaft. When doing shafting work on the hard, especially things like motor mounts, bolting the shaft up to the engine with the cutlass not in place allows you to roughly dial in the side to side very, very easily. I always find the rough side to side is the most difficult because the motor needs to move and also the mounts can't be stressed or cocked once moved. Up & down is a no brainer. On longer shafts you'll get some sag but not a whole lot on shorter ones. So you can somewhat roughly center top to bottom if you know the shaft sag ahead of time. I have some long shafts kicking around the shop and will measure sag of a known length to know roughly what to expect.

With the tool I own I can press out a cutlass on a boat that is spot on (on the hard) and the shaft is in pretty much the center of the strut side to side. When they're out of alignment you can really see how bad it is...

On boats like the one below you can visibly see how bad the alignment was. This shaft was pinched up quite tightly to the strut once the cutlass was pressed out. If anything it should sag slightly not be pinched up tight to the top of the strut. It was also nearly resting on the shaft log.. These types of gross misalignment's on this boat have nothing to do with in-water or out.
131546017.jpg


When I do this these are rough baseline adjustments. The final tweaks on the hard are done with the packing gland and cutlass in place then adjusted after a few weeks in the water, and properly tuned.


As to the vibration issues there are some boats that you just won't entirely get rid of them. Many of the M-25's and other three cyl engines get "spots" where they vibrate more than another RPM. The one on our C-36 was 1850 - 1900 RPM. Also the Bushings Inc. mounts used on many of the three point systems really suck as mounts go and transfer every little thing right to the boat.


Last winter I did an 87 E-34. Everything was new. New AQ22 shaft trued to .002" (better than ABYC spec), new flange fitted and faced, brand new Flex-O-Fold two blade prop lap fit to the shaft for better than 95% final fit, not checking prop to shaft fit can often be a cause of prop induced vibrations. The Flex-O-Folds tend to fit shaft tapers pretty poorly.

This was a brand new Flex-O-fold fit to a brand new shaft with a proper & tested ABYC spec shaft taper. The area wiped clean of the prussian blue was the ONLY place it was fitting the shaft. Even with the prop nut tight that is about a 20% fit... Shaft to prop fit should not be over looked when trying to eliminate vibrations.
135968076.jpg



She also got brand new mounts, new stuffing box hose, new packing, new cutlass bearing.

Once in the water and tuned it was aligned to .002" - .003". The shaft exhibited no wobble and the stuffing box was dead nuts still. While the boat was significantly smoother than it had been you could physically watch the engine get "rolling" when under load. This caused some cyclic vibrations transferred through the hull. A whoooom............. whooooom............whoooooom that you can physically watch occurring. These same engines on four mounts don't exhibit this "rolling" cyclic vibration. Even the four cylinder Westerbekes on some Sabre's will do the same thing with the three point mount so it's not just the difference between three and four cylinder engines.

Sometimes no matter how perfect everything is these boats can they can still exhibit some vibrations that may not be associated with the shaft, prop, cutlass or alignment. Also two blade props are just not as smooth as a three. Prop shops using the Hale MRI or Prop Scan tools can drastically cut two blade prop vibrations but it will still not be as smooth as a good three blade.
 
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gregdettmer

Member I
Just went through the replacement of the coupling, shaft, stuffing box and cutlass bearing. Used feeler gauges for all alignments. It was aligned on the hard and then rechecked once in the water. There was quite a difference from land to water on alignment, but the boat had been out of the water for 19 years. It was rechecked again after 20 hours of operation and required just a minor adjustment.

Also found that since the two coupling halves are machined and “fit” together, with just one or two bolts in loose to hold the fit together loosely it would become obvious when the alignment was correct or incorrect. Since when the alignment is not correct, it becomes harder to turn the shaft by hand.

Regards
Greg Dettmer
s/v Spirit Soul
e38
 

e38 owner

Member III
thanks for all your help

Thanks for your advice. During the project I have learned so much. I should be at the boat in a few weeks and will let you know how it goes.
I am doing the following.
I am going to replace the martec, send it for a rebuild and put on my almost new maxiprob.
I also have a tool that lets me press out the cutless while the shaft is installed. The cutlass looked good but I bought one just in case once when the prob is pulled we determine a new cutless is needed.

Finally since I have never done an engine alignment, I have made arrangments to have the engine aligned after all the above is done. When I installed the new dry seal the coupler was a bugger to get off. we ended up using a small wheel puller. If it ever happens again I well make a coupler remover. It was so hard to get off we had it machined to a closer tolerance so we could get it back together. I do not think the first one was ever faced. however we may have had a little to much taken off. I believe that was a bad idea and ordered a r&d stainless split coupling in case during the alignment we find the coupler is a little big.
 
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