Thru hulls and ball valves

JORGE

Member III
Using sealants instead

The bolt-through method bothers me, ie. more holes and more work. I am about to start installing some Groco flange seacocks, and I would like to know if anyone has used sealants, such as polysulphide, or 5200 to hold the backing blocks down to the hold. I have come across a few devices attached this way on my hull and find them immovable.
 

NateHanson

Sustaining Member
I'm just curious, what's the motivation to use something other than epoxy, since the backer block will presumably never be removed? Flexible adhesives make sense to me for deck hardware, through-hulls, etc. Stuff that needs to be removed for periodic replacement or rebedding, and stuff that flexes during use, and would stress a rigid seal.

With that caveat, I'd say 5200 would be a fair candidate if you don't like epoxy. I don't think polysulphide is strong enough though. Removing polysulfide-stuck items isn't that hard IME.
 

JORGE

Member III
bolting down

I'm always hesistant about boring holes, ie the work and everything else. The previous attached pdf file demonstrates the install of a seacock to a backing block.
Question: Has anyone tried to adhere it w/ 5200 or a polyshulphide?? I have a few devices on my 32-2 which are permanently adhered this way.
 

Emerald

Moderator
NateHanson said:
I'm just curious, what's the motivation to use something other than epoxy, since the backer block will presumably never be removed? [snip]


Because there is no such thing as "forever" on a boat. It will all fail given enough time...

:devil:


-David
Independence 31
Emerald
 

jmoses

Member III
Backing Plate

The main purpose of a backing plate is three fold:

1. Distrubute the surface loading of the seacock (or other item) over a greater surface area to help with loading on the hull.

2. Prevents hard points where the seacock edge is adjacent to the hull which could induce cracking later on at the hard point.

3. Provides added thickness/meat for the bolts.

As an aside, backing blocks should be cicular as a square one has four hard points - the corners. This is a basic principal in aircraft design: never have square edges as they create hard points. They should also be thoroughly coated in epoxy - both sides.

Whether you drill a hole to secure the seacock or not is one's own decision, but the whole nature of a sea cock is to mechanically secure it to the hull.

As for how to get a flat block to mount to a curved hull, the correct process is to build up a hard material (i.e. epoxy and glass) to eliminate the radius. There's labor involved, but that's the correct way to do it. If the decsion is to use goo or thickened epoxy to do the job, well, that's better than nothing. The down side to all goo is that the expansion and contarction of the goo in a large gap is not the best scenario as it will eventually work. Nor can one be sure that all air bubbles have been removed.

As for thickened epoxy, the tightenming of the bolts will squeeze out the epoxy, unless one does it twice; once to let the epoxy set up, then remove item and add sealant. Then tighten down for good.

As for the seacocks I installed, they have a four-fold securing features:

1. The seacock is bolted to the circular wooden backing plate
2. The thruhull flange is screwed into the seacock
3. The backing plate is bolted to the hull
4. Goo is holding it all together

If that fails, I hit a whale.

Here is an in-between shot when I was building up the hull with epoxy and X-matt. The pieces were cut into doughnut - ovoid shaped pieces to get a flat surface to mount the backing plates to evenly.
 

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ted_reshetiloff

Contributing Partner
McMaster Carr sells some nice nylon in various thicknesses that makes great backing plate material. It will conform to a curve, will take shock loads well, and will never rot. Wood backing plates even coated in epoxy can rot. If the t-hull is ever stressed ie. kicked and the epoxy coating is chipped water will get in. Another way to get the epoxy to take the curve of the hull with blocks is to use wax paper. When bolting up the t-hull just snug the fitting so all of the thickened epoxy doesnt squeeze out. After it kicks you can take it all apart and reassemble with sealant. Just a few more thoughts...
 

usmcgrizz

Member I
Brass gate valves

Well I may have screwed up by replacing my raw water pick-up to the engine pvc ball valve (prev owner) with a brass gate valve from Ace Hardware. I replaced a pvc ball valve one on the bilge pump outlet also (I know you shouldn't need one there but he said he was getting seawater siphoning in to the bilge). I think his real problem was that he was using the wrong thru hull and it was too close to the waterline. Anyway back to the Ace Hardware merchandise. Is this going to be a major immediate issue or can it wait until I haul-out fall 2006? I am sailing Puget sound/ San Juans. I also used a brass end cap to seal off the old bilge pump thru hull fitting.

David Brockett
 

Emerald

Moderator
usmcgrizz said:
Is this going to be a major immediate issue or can it wait until I haul-out fall 2006? I am sailing Puget sound/ San Juans. I also used a brass end cap to seal off the old bilge pump thru hull fitting.

David Brockett

Not that I can recommend waiting on this, but I understand wanting to wait for haul out. I would be lying if I said I had not bought a boat and sailed with old nasty nasty gate valves with fingers crossed until fall haul out (and only on bright sunny days, of course with a gentle breeze :D )

So, that said, I wouldn't leave home without a nice set of wood plugs and a proper mallet or hammer to tap them in. If not familiar, here's a link to some from Defender (no affiliation, just past customer).

http://www.defender.com/product.jsp?path=-1|135|320549|320586&id=275638

If at all possible though, replace sooner than later.


-David
Independence 31
Emerald
 
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NateHanson

Sustaining Member
Personally, I think I'd make the swap now. You just replaced it, so you know the valve will thread off without a problem. If the raw-water intake is a simple throughhull, I'd GENTLY push a plug into the throughhull from underwater, climb aboard, replace the valve with bronze ball valve or bronze through-hull, and then pull that plug out. You'll sleep better. Heck, I'll sleep better. That brass gate valve will be nothing but a matrix of copper when the zinc disappears. I don't know how long that takes, but I'd be worried.
 

jmoses

Member III
Advert Jingle

"Ace is NOT the place for your seacock needs" Although Ace may be a good place for a host of items on your boat (sandpaper, acetone, brushes, bronze fittings, etc.), it isn't the place for seacocks, nor is Home Depot, Lowes, Target, K-Mart or Sears.

There are many places where heaps of money can be saved at stores like these over We$t Marine, but seacocks is not one of them. I am a BIG advocate of shopping at alternative stores/on-line for gear, but unfortunately, I must bite the bullet on occasion and shop at "Tiffaneys by the sea" (i.e. We$t Marine) and subsidize Randy Repasses extravaganet lifestyle :(

Hard to belive he started out with one little store here in Palo Alto CA in the 1970's......the store is still open and I imgaine at one time it was like an old local hardware store staffed with people who knew what they were doing and paid $10.00 hour...like they are now, but adjusted to inflation @$11.00 an hour. Where does all that money go at 60%-75% mark-up?

Sigh, John m.
 

Mike.Gritten

Member III
John,

60-75% markup is actually not bad - if that's what it truly is. My brother has been a parts manager for over 20 years in the automotive industry. Their standard markup on parts is 100%. Yep, just double the cost and send 'em out the door. This is what they are told to do by the District Parts Managers from Pontiac/Honda/Toyota (franchises he's worked for).
 
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