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Time to reef yet?

nquigley

Sustaining Member
Can anyone tell me the approximate wind ranges at which the 32-3 needs the 1st reef, 2nd reef, and 3rd reef?
I'm ordering a new main, and the sailmaker is asking at what wind speeds those reefs are tucked in, but I have very limited experience sailing my 32-3 in anything above ~15kts, and only on very flat water (inland lake).
Thanks!
 

Christian Williams

E381 - Los Angeles
Senior Moderator
Blogs Author
First reef whenever excessive weather helm develops or the boat seems overpowered. Maybe 15 knots.

Second reef when the first reef isn't enough. Maybe 20 knots.

(Cruisers like me reef early because they don't have crews to weight the windward rail and make constant sail adjustments. And the ride is better.)

A third reef is unnecessary in my opinion because the boat sails so well under jib alone. The 32-3 will sail fine in 30 knots of wind with just a scrap of jib deployed.

Here's a sequence with wind speed numbers on an E381. As I recall the 32-3 is about the same, reef-wise.

Turn on [CC] closed captions.
 
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Kalia

1987 Ericson 34-2
I like the format of Christian's response: first about how the boat feels and only secondarily about the wind speed.

My boat came without a wind speed indicator. It's been on my to do list for a year. However, I discovered that it's not really necessary to have one. Far better to arrive at an understanding of when the boat wants to be reefed based on angle of heel, pressure on the helm and boat speed. This encourages me to pay more attention to sail trim and sea state.

As a compromise, I bought a hand held wind speed indicator that I kept in a mesh pocket in the companionway for awhile. Used it a couple of times and then decided I don't really care what it tells me. There's more than enough information all around me without the numerical readout.
 

Christian Williams

E381 - Los Angeles
Senior Moderator
Blogs Author
Good point about wind speed. For one thing, readings taken at deck level are very different from the anemometer at top of my 50' mast. And Grib wind speed is measured at 10 meters, yet another gradient. And then there is true vs apparent wind, which makes the most difference to us, and in whitecaps means 20 knots apparent to windward and 10 knots apparent downwind.

Another way to look at it is that if you're luffing the main to keep boat on its feet, might as well reef. Why do people not reef early? Because their reefing gear is no fun to use. Upgrades to system, lines, blocks, sheaves, clutches makes reefing much more of a shrug and less of a chore.
 

G Kiba

Sustaining Member
I suspect you will get a range of answers with this question. I found that reefing is sometimes a matter or comfort. If I have guests that are new to sailing or if I don't feel like pushing the boat I will put a reef or two in the main.

I also think you have to consider your point of sail. If going downwind, you can usually carry a full main. Upwind may require a reef or two if windy. A third reef for me, means that I will be stuck in the wind and can't pull over and sail to a marina or sheltered anchorage. This is rarely the case sailing in the SF Bay Area. You can usually turn downwind or duck behind an island. A third reef is more like likely to be an open ocean precaution.

Bottom line for me on reefing. A single reef for winds up to 20 knots for comfort. A double reef for +25 (if on the dock, likely a decision to sail another day). If racing, a single reef at +25. When on a day sail, I reef whenever I want my guests or myself to feel comfortable.
 

G Kiba

Sustaining Member
Interesting point about wind speed. Don't forget that altitude and temperature change air density. 20 knots of wind on the SF Bay (60 degrees) is not the same as 20 knots of wind on Lake Tahoe. Same velocity but different forces.
 

jtsai

Member III
Can anyone tell me the approximate wind ranges at which the 32-3 needs the 1st reef, 2nd reef, and 3rd reef?
I'm ordering a new main, and the sailmaker is asking at what wind speeds those reefs are tucked in, but I have very limited experience sailing my 32-3 in anything above ~15kts, and only on very flat water (inland lake).
Thanks!
I have never ordered new sails before, but shouldn't a knowledgeable sailmaker know where to place the reefing points based on boat specs and area's predominate wind conditions?
 

N.A.

E34 / SF Bay
I have an E34-type boat, so these are more general comments / not a reply to your original specific question about windspeeds.

TLDR: Consider only two reefs, with maybe the 2nd extra deep. Later on, consider setting up double-line slab reefing, so you can reef fully from the cockpit without going forward.

- It sounds like your sailmaker may not be familiar with the E32... you might see if anyone on this board can give you specs (luff height or %) for the different reefs on their own E32s. Perhaps you could give that straight to the sailmaker.

- I recently got a new main, and exact reef placement depended a bit on where the battens fell, which depended on whether I was getting full battens, etc. You might decide on batten style, if you haven't already, in case it affects how they lay out the reefs. I got a couple of full high up and a partial down lower, but mine's a bigger sail than yours.

- I was discouraged from getting a 3rd reef (but did it anyway -- covers offshore racing requirements in lieu of a trysail). The argument against boiled down to a combination of a) you will never use it (so far true) and can add it later if you want, and b) the extra reef cringle makes the sail stiffer and increases wear at the edges of the cringle up high. I have no opinion but do believe the folks that argued against, since one was a very trusted sailmaker in the bay area. The usual alternative to this is to i) get a normal two reefs and then, only if you later decide you want one, have the sailmaker add a 3rd later (which they can do fine), or ii) just getting deeper than normal 2nd and maybe 1st reef so you never need a 3rd. Given that many booms are not rigged for 3 reef clew lines, and since when you need that 3rd reef it will be way too hard to untie the 1st and run it through the flogging sail and then down and tie around the boom -- ughh -- presumably you would want to rig the 3rd reef clew line permanently, which is extra effort and expense. Or instead do a deeper 2nd (and maybe 1st) and you won't need the 3rd reef or associated clew line at all.

- I recently observed someone (Kalia, on this board) with 2-line reefing set up on their E34 -- so clew lines led through the boom and then aft to the cockpit, as well as lines from the reef tacks running down tot he mast base and then aft to the cockpit. I've done a lot of reefing (in fact, must do it underway a large fraction of the times I go out) and am very comfortable with it even singlehanded, but because I only have the clew lines rigged, I always have to go to the mast to secure the tack to the reefing horn on the gooseneck. Watching it done from the cockpit with separate lines for tack & clew was a revelation: just _so_ relaxed, and secure feeling, even in blustery wind. Given that you describe limited experience in > 15 kt winds, all I can say is you might consider it -- then that time you need it you will be more likely to do it early, since the task won't seem so large that you delay (we all know delay usually makes the situation harder, but we all do it...)

- PS: "Single line reefing", where the clew line is then run through the tack and aft, so you can winch n only one line and secure both the tack and clew... works poorly and I hate it. I would not do this -- high friction, and forces on tack/clew are not optimized since you have to use one line to do both. Sailmaker also recommended against it.

I second everyone else's comments above: I usually put in my 1st reef when the (apparent) wind is sustained over 15-17, and my second after it's sustained over 22 ish... but here the wind is pretty reliable in both speed and direction, so I often exceed a bit for a while knowing it won't go too much higher, and that the apparent wind will drop when I turn downwind for home. Like others, I tend to go by feel, not by wind gauge -- but now that I have a wind gauge I tend to look at it to see what speed that "time to reef" gust actually was :) [By the way, those reefing decision are based on also running with a 90% jib that I don't furl.]
 

Alan Gomes

Sustaining Partner
- PS: "Single line reefing", where the clew line is then run through the tack and aft, so you can winch n only one line and secure both the tack and clew... works poorly and I hate it. I would not do this -- high friction, and forces on tack/clew are not optimized since you have to use one line to do both. Sailmaker also recommended against it.
Here's a good article from Pineapple Sails that talks about this, among other things. http://www.pineapplesails.com/articles/reefing.htm

On my boat I have separate lines for tack and clew. On a previous boat I did have single line reefing, and it actually worked OK. But I don't really see where it is any easier to execute a reef with it, and I like being able to get the tack nice and tight before messing with the clew. Easier on the sail slugs and more foolproof in terms of getting the shape you want. The downside, of course, is more spaghetti in the cockpit.
 

Alan Gomes

Sustaining Partner
I recently observed someone (Kalia, on this board) with 2-line reefing set up on their E34 -- so clew lines led through the boom and then aft to the cockpit, as well as lines from the reef tacks running down tot he mast base and then aft to the cockpit. I've done a lot of reefing (in fact, must do it underway a large fraction of the times I go out) and am very comfortable with it even singlehanded, but because I only have the clew lines rigged, I always have to go to the mast to secure the tack to the reefing horn on the gooseneck. Watching it done from the cockpit with separate lines for tack & clew was a revelation: just _so_ relaxed, and secure feeling, even in blustery wind. Given that you describe limited experience in > 15 kt winds, all I can say is you might consider it -- then that time you need it you will be more likely to do it early, since the task won't seem so large that you delay (we all know delay usually makes the situation harder, but we all do it...)
Currently I have my clew lines run aft but go to the mast for the tack. But I am going to be redoing my control lines when I get around to installing some new rope clutches I purchased and will make some changes. Anyway, I'm still cogitating on it, but what I might do is split the difference: I would run both clew lines aft to the cockpit but only run back a line for the tack on the second reef. That would eliminate one extra line. My thought is that the conditions are not going to be as blustery when I go for a first reef as they will be for a second, when I'd really prefer not to be up on deck. Plus, in my dotage I find myself going straight to the second reef anyway even when not strictly necessary, for comfort. Still haven't made up my mind on it but that's my current thought.
 

Christian Williams

E381 - Los Angeles
Senior Moderator
Blogs Author
Of all the simple changes, a reef downhaul is near simplest. It's just a 5/16th line tied to the dogbone, run down to one turning block on the mast collar, then back to a cleat or clutch on the aft cabin house. Ready to use, all the time. Surprisingly luxurious.
 

N.A.

E34 / SF Bay
I had perhaps mistakenly assumed I should use the same line as for my main halyard -- is there some reason you suggest such small line? Or is it that the 5/16 you mention is dyneema or something super strong/low stretch?

As is perhaps obvious, I am planning to set this up myself forthwith. Luxurious is actually a great word for it.
 

Loren Beach

O34 - Portland, OR
Senior Moderator
Blogs Author
I have been using extra low stretch 5/16" for all four halyards for over 20 years. I suspect that it will work fine for your reefing line. Just be sure that it holds in the clutch.
And an extra tip of the hat (a Viking helmet) to Christian for explaining a simple way to attach to the reef clew, via the floppy ring. I had not thought of that answer! :)
 
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Mr. Scarlett

Member III
first about how the boat feels and only secondarily about the wind speed
Same here. I had a guest today and reefed a little late judging by their body language. Once settled back in the cockpit, they asked if the wind had suddenly dropped off.
I think a common misconception is that reefing will slow the boat down.
 

nquigley

Sustaining Member
I have never ordered new sails before, but shouldn't a knowledgeable sailmaker know where to place the reefing points based on boat specs and area's predominate wind conditions?
Thanks everyone.
Yes, of course, there are myriad variables, but since the sailmaker is asking these questions, I want to give useful answers. This main is being customized to the boat, that I'm singlehanded, and where I'll do most of my cruising (prevailing wind and sea conditions). The 3rd reef is not required, but it's included in the cost and does have utility offshore - I won't have a trysail. The sailmaker understands how deep to make the 3rd reef for my intended use and needs. Along with triple stitching, heavily reinforced corners and reef points, there are several custom features (e.g., over the head leach line, low friction rings for reef clew points, adjustable dyneena dogbones).
It's a small loft that builds excellent racing and cruising sails - they design and build all sails in their loft. I got an excellent staysail from them two years ago after a recommendation from Kevin Boothby (How to Sail Oceans You Tube channel). Sailmaker is Willis Sails, Bay of Islands. I'll be in NZ in November, so I'm taking this opportunity to get it made before I get there to avoid a large shipping charge. And, with the current exchange rate, I'm getting a very good deal :)
 

Christian Williams

E381 - Los Angeles
Senior Moderator
Blogs Author
A third reef can come in handy on the 32-3, occasionally. The rigging solution (since we only have two internal reef lines) is to simply run reef lines for Reefs 2 and 3, and fix Reef one to the boom end with a temporary seizing.

It is then possible to choose between Reef 1, 2 and 3 (although not full sail). Note that this requires long reef lines, since when Reef 1 is selected, the clew of Reef 3 is quite high up the sail.

What the third reef is not good for, in my experience, is as a storm trysail. Storm trysails exist to give a yacht steerageway in extreme conditions. However, a cruiser/racer such as the 32-3 cannot sail in extreme conditions, by which I mean a gale with breaking seas.

The solution then is a Jordan Series drogue, with all sail furled and secured.
 

Bolo

Contributing Partner
One of the best ”upgrades” I’ve done to my E32-3 recently was to run lines for tack and clew reefing back to the cockpit and through new rope clutches. I try and reef at the dock if I know that conditions on the Chesapeake are going to be brisk but this year I was out sailing when the wind came up suddenly and reefing was unexpectedly easy from the cockpit.

6ED127EB-5DB9-4081-9584-D267DEFE73CA.jpeg
New Spinlock XAS rope clutches for reef 1 & 2. (Photo was taken before old reefing lines were replaced with new lines.)
 

K2MSmith

Sustaining Member
I don’t know if anyone has mentioned backstay tension. If you ever wonder how racers are able to sail in higher winds without reefing is (1) they have a crew on the rail to weight windward rail and (2) they flatten the sail. If your sail is cut right and you have a way to adjust backstay tension under way, tightening your backstay will flatten your sail considerably, reduce it’s power and enable it to penetrate the wind better (a thinner airfoil profile0. I’ve found that on my boat, a fully tensioned backstay is easily equivalent to first reef in 12-15kt conditions. Of course, mileage will vary depending on now bendy your mast is and your boat, sails etc.
 

nquigley

Sustaining Member
I just got the final design specs from the sailmaker: 1st reef is at 10.5% of luff height, 2nd at 25% and 3rd at 50% (the latter is a NZ requirement for compliance with their 'offshore' categorization regs - it also serves as a storm sail.) I haven't done the math yet to work out what % of original sail area remains at each reef point.
 
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