Rick R.
Contributing Partner
http://www.sailfeed.com/2014/05/cheeki-rafiki-hull-found-search-suspended/
I hope our keel never falls off!
I hope our keel never falls off!
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Tragic!
- Thread starter Rick R.
- Start date
Schrewsburyduo
Member II
Coastguard resumed the search apparently.
Jeff Asbury
Principal Partner
I am very happy with my encapsulated keel. Thank you Bruce King! Tragic is right, very sad.
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Thoughts
Not to take away from the loss, or the tragedy of the event, and the loss of 4 lives.
We may never know exactly what happened to the boat. If we allow ourselves the luxery of guessing from the available data including the photos of the hull, it seems to be a safe guess that the keel fell off.
This is the same issue that killed Mike Plant.
When the water was coming into the boat, if we follow our reasoning backwards, it would have been good to establish if the keel was going to fall off, or seemed like it was loose. Inspection of the keel bolts for movement would have been good. (They may have I am not saying they did not). If we are to learn from this tragedy we could think and discuss what would we do if the keel was moving about on a boat that we were on.
Guy
Not to take away from the loss, or the tragedy of the event, and the loss of 4 lives.
We may never know exactly what happened to the boat. If we allow ourselves the luxery of guessing from the available data including the photos of the hull, it seems to be a safe guess that the keel fell off.
This is the same issue that killed Mike Plant.
When the water was coming into the boat, if we follow our reasoning backwards, it would have been good to establish if the keel was going to fall off, or seemed like it was loose. Inspection of the keel bolts for movement would have been good. (They may have I am not saying they did not). If we are to learn from this tragedy we could think and discuss what would we do if the keel was moving about on a boat that we were on.
Guy
Rick R.
Contributing Partner
Not to take away from the loss, or the tragedy of the event, and the loss of 4 lives.
We may never know exactly what happened to the boat. If we allow ourselves the luxery of guessing from the available data including the photos of the hull, it seems to be a safe guess that the keel fell off.
This is the same issue that killed Mike Plant.
When the water was coming into the boat, if we follow our reasoning backwards, it would have been good to establish if the keel was going to fall off, or seemed like it was loose. Inspection of the keel bolts for movement would have been good. (They may have I am not saying they did not). If we are to learn from this tragedy we could think and discuss what would we do if the keel was moving about on a boat that we were on.
Guy
I agree Guy.
I can't remember where I read about it but there was another tragic loss do to a keel falling off (other than Mike Plant). Ever since reading about that, I have been concerned that if it were to happen, there would be no time to launch a liferaft or in the case of those below deck, getting out before the boat turned turtle.
That being said, I think I would seriuosly consider getting off a boat if I saw water running in around loose keel bolts.
If someone could create a sensor that warns of an impending keel failure, that would be wonderful.
A Beneteau First 40.7
Galveston crew I think
There was a college crew that had the same thing happen. There was a big lawsuit about how the boat was repaired.
Galveston A&M Sailing team
2008
http://www.soundingsonline.com/features/in-depth/164-keel-failures-prompt-call-for-oversight
Guy
There was a college crew that had the same thing happen. There was a big lawsuit about how the boat was repaired.
Galveston A&M Sailing team
2008
http://www.soundingsonline.com/features/in-depth/164-keel-failures-prompt-call-for-oversight
Guy
716Ericson27
Lake Erie Viking
Going along with Guy, and trying to learn and discuss what we could/would do if we found ourselves in a similar scenario. Assuming that you knew your keel was about to have imminent failure off shore. To buy time and get life raft, survival supplies, etc. together and deployed, is the thought to head downwind a valid option, which would allow you to still have a chance to control the boat if the keel fell off without flipping over immediately. I'm just thinking about racing lightnings and on our downwind spinnaker legs we pull up the center board for increased speed, which certainly makes boat balance more difficult, but certainly is achievable without flipping over if you have the feel for it....just a thought
tripper_dave
Member II
FWIW we hit HARD last summer on the eastern shore of Nova Scotia. We were doing about 5 knots and hit an uncharted rock that stopped the boat cold. My wife literally jumped into the cabin and tore back the bilge covers.... not a drop. The keel was secure and the bolts never moved nor let in any water. (For the record, Nova Scotia appeared to suffer no ill effects either). When we hauled in the fall the was a softball-sized chunk punched out of the leading edge of the keel about 18" from the bottom. Took me several days to fill, glass and fair the keel, but she's back in shape and doing well (won our division this weekend in a local Open Regatta!). Moral of the story is that the old "delta keel" appears to be a pretty strong beast! Rest easy sailors.
Rick R.
Contributing Partner
Vagabond39
Member III
Boat design is an act of comprimises. Unfortinately, it seems that the comprimise includes speed vs lives.http://www.ericsonyachts.org/infoexchange/images/smilies/mad.gif
adam
Member III
It's also an issue of cost vs lives. Another post morteum I read suggested that it was indeed possible to attach these keels much better, spreading the load across much more of the boat, but the cost to do so would be prohibitive in mass market, mass produced boats.
Rick R.
Contributing Partner
I not mean to argue, and I may not understand the statement properly, but I believe that mass market/mass produced vessels are normally stronger-engineered than single purpose racing boats.
Like racing cars, the winning driver/helmsperson will have the lightest vessel that is just strong enough to clear the finish line... and not too much further.
As long as no one is harmed, that's why watching masts occasionally snap and hulls fold in half is considered an "entertaining" subset of international competition.
All in all, and with exceptions that prove the rule (like the infamous O'Day 302) production boats have keel-to-hull connections that will withstand regular groundings and extreme lack of preventative maintenance. That's to avoid liability, and given their target audience makes a lot of sense.
If you look at number and size of the keel bolts (actually threaded rods) in an Ericson or Olson, they are more numerous and larger than any minimal spec.
"Overbuilt", as it were.
Like another poster here, we "tested" our boat (not intentionally) by running it a foot deep into a sand bar at 6 kts. That stop was Sudden!
No harm or change in the joint. No problem. The yard owner where I had a precautionary haul-out done a week later told me that he would not expect to find anything amiss, give the builder and engineering.
So, any high tech racing boat could indeed be built stronger, but the designer is always trying to limit weight overall.
Also, when the designer does his/her job to the Nth degree of engineering excellence, there is much additional stress on the builder (sometimes using minimum wage laborers) to Exactly... follow those precise scantlings. And that's where a future disaster can start, too.
:0
Interesting topic, but it's still just awful that those guys were killed.
(big sigh)
Regards,
Loren
adam
Member III
Take 2 cents on all of this. I'm opinionated, but not an expert.
Serious racing boats (e.g America's cup) are made as light and fast as possible, with little to no regards to cost and lesser regards to safety.
Serious blue water boats are made as strong as possible, with a huge emphasis on safety but lesser regards to speed and there's going to be a big surcharge on boats constructed like this.
The mass produced boats try to be everything. Customers want them to be fast, strong, and affordable. The net results is some balance of those three things.
In the case of Benneteau, they _could_ build a keel support system capable of surviving a normal grounding. There should be only a small loss to performance as it's just a little bit of weight right above the keel. But the cost could go up pretty significantly with the extra construction, parts, and labor?
If they bump up their prices to build an adequately designed keel support would they be able to sell their boat with an adequate margin vs. their competitors whose boats are now cheaper, and stay in business?
I guess the best way to put it, is if they make a more expensive boat with a better designed keel support would they sell more or less boats at more or less of a margin?
Note -- the answer to these questions may shift over time if there are well publicized disasters from keels falling off. Suddenly this is something that people are willing to pay for.
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Rick R.
Contributing Partner
Besides the keel...
This sad case shines a light on a couple factors that I am concerned with.
The liferaft not being deployed is disturbing. I guess when the boat suddenly turns upside down, it would be nearly impossible to get mine out of the starboard lazerette where it resides on our boat. There was some discussion about hanging them in a bracket on the stern.
In reality our PLBs would be very difficult to effectively hold upright in a heavy sea like Cheekie experienced.
Part of the attraction to sailing for me is the thrill of doing all you can to prepare, then setting off, out of sight of land and trusting your equipment and skills will get you back safely.
Prayers to the families for healing and peace during this hard time.
This sad case shines a light on a couple factors that I am concerned with.
The liferaft not being deployed is disturbing. I guess when the boat suddenly turns upside down, it would be nearly impossible to get mine out of the starboard lazerette where it resides on our boat. There was some discussion about hanging them in a bracket on the stern.
In reality our PLBs would be very difficult to effectively hold upright in a heavy sea like Cheekie experienced.
Part of the attraction to sailing for me is the thrill of doing all you can to prepare, then setting off, out of sight of land and trusting your equipment and skills will get you back safely.
Prayers to the families for healing and peace during this hard time.
Beneteau will hang for this, and maybe learn how to connect a fin to a boat.
I'd really like to hear what Bruce Farr has to say.
I'd really like to hear what Bruce Farr has to say.
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adam
Member III
I've been contemplating the survival scenarios here, and it just looks bleak. The big first question in any dangerous situation seems to be if the crew was clipped in. But in this case, that likely didn't matter. In the best of cases if a 40.7 turtles it will probably remain upside for longer than you can hold your breath (capsize ratio 1.97), and you'll have to unclip. With the keel missing, you'd definitely have to unclip as it can, and seemingly did, remain turtled indefinitely.
Once unclipped in high winds and 20' waves I can't imagine swimming back to the boat, especially with a life vest which keeps you buoyant, but hinders your ability to swim.
Ironically in this month's "Blue Water Sailing" Magazine, George Day preaches great things about "Modern Boats Offshore". He mocks old timers who insist full keels are the only things safe offshore, and concludes with this:
"Well fitted out modern designs are almost all offshore worthy, and carry ABYC and the European CE certifications, depending on where they are built. Sure, these designs are roomy homes afloat, but they can also knock off seven or eight knots all day long. And that puts a smile on your face, too."
I wonder what they're going to say in the June episode after this fatal accident.
Once unclipped in high winds and 20' waves I can't imagine swimming back to the boat, especially with a life vest which keeps you buoyant, but hinders your ability to swim.
Ironically in this month's "Blue Water Sailing" Magazine, George Day preaches great things about "Modern Boats Offshore". He mocks old timers who insist full keels are the only things safe offshore, and concludes with this:
"Well fitted out modern designs are almost all offshore worthy, and carry ABYC and the European CE certifications, depending on where they are built. Sure, these designs are roomy homes afloat, but they can also knock off seven or eight knots all day long. And that puts a smile on your face, too."
I wonder what they're going to say in the June episode after this fatal accident.