Universal M12 Engine Belt

[stgermain45]

First off, this forum is great! Since purchasing a 1987 E-28 in August, I've been following the sound advice and wisdom from the great folks at this site for my own projects. Thank you so much!!

I'm a little mystified with the belt on my Universal M12 diesel. When purchasing the boat, we were advised by our surveyor that it would be a good idea to replace it. We ordered the direct replacement per the manual (part# 301073) from Torresen Marine and received a belt that reads "7360 Gates XL 11A0915". (I plan to call tomorrow to make sure they sent the correct one). The deflection seems about right, but it is as tight as it can go on the engine. The old belt was also positioned the same way with it as tight as it could go. This new belt has the teeth on the inside whereas the teeth were on the outside on the old belt. Any reason for that? It only fits one way. My issue is that the new belt is SO close to the oil filter that it whacks it when it spins around resulting in black dust wearing off the belt and making a good amount of noise. I'm thinking that a smaller belt might position it over a bit from the oil filter where it won't hit it. However, I'm clueless on what size I'd need.

I can't be sure that the alternator is original, but it looks like it. It is a Motorola Model 8RG2009A V12. I've searched for some information on the web about it, but haven't come up with anything, not even an amp rating. Can anyone provide some info or confirm/deny it is original?

Any input would be greatly appreciated!!

Thanks in advance!
Chris

 

[Tom Metzger]

Chris - Why not take the belt that you have, old or new one, to an auto parts store and get one longer or shorter to solve your problem. Belts come in lengths at half inch increments so you don't need a part number. Some parts should not come from a marine dealer because they can be much more expensive, shipping costs, return costs, etc, for the same part.

I would recommend a Gates "green belt", but that is only my opinion.

It is good practice to carry a spare with you in case of a problem away from the dock.

 

[stgermain45]

Tom,

Thanks for the advice. I'll be doing that today and seeing if I can get a belt a bit smaller from an auto parts store. Torresen did send me the correct one and my alternator does look like the 51A replacement on their website (orig. part#: 302280, Westerbeke part#: 42847), so I'm not sure what's going on.

I'll keep the belt I have as a spare since it could at least get me back into the harbor in a pinch.

Thanks again,
Chris

 

[Loren Beach]

Different Universal engine model, but the alternator is probably the same -- so some of this earlier discussion might be of help.
http://www.ericsonyachts.org/infoexchange/showthread.php?t=6726&referrerid=28

LB

 

[joe-fran]

Belt tension and belt dust

Chris.

I also have a 1987 E-28 purchased summer of 2009.
same problems.
Last summer I changed out the 23 year old alternator and replaced it with

http://www.spidermarine.com/ShowItem/104466 New Motorola, Leece Neville 12v 51 Amp Alternator.aspx

Works great but the belt is still just a little too close to the filter and I get the black dust over overything.

Next time I am at the boat I'll get the exact numbers for the belt ( carry 2 spares to be safe?

Joe

 

[bayhoss]

Smaller Filter

I had about the same issue on my '86 E28. I went with a Fram filter that is smaller in diamenter and I get just enough clear for the belt to pass without touching. Fram website has a cross reference to give you the correct numbers. No connection to Fram.

Best,
Frank

 

[Tom Metzger]

I wouldn't recommend going by belt part numbers unless you are really sure you have the same setup as the other person's engine. As Chris found out, it may not fit regardless.

Here is a list of filters for Universal diesels:

<table width="655" border="0" cellpadding="0" cellspacing="0"><col style="width: 52pt;" width="69"> <col style="width: 41pt;" width="54"> <col style="width: 44pt;" width="58"> <col style="width: 55pt;" width="73"> <col style="width: 59pt;" width="78"> <col style="width: 48pt;" width="64"> <col style="width: 98pt;" width="131"> <col style="width: 48pt;" width="64" span="2"> <tbody><tr style="height: 13.2pt;" height="18"> <td style="height: 13.2pt; width: 52pt;" width="69" height="18">
</td> <td class="xl24" style="width: 41pt;" width="54">
</td> <td class="xl24" style="width: 44pt;" width="58">
</td> <td class="xl24" style="width: 55pt;" width="73">Lube Oil</td> <td class="xl24" style="width: 59pt;" width="78">Fuel</td> <td style="width: 48pt;" width="64">
</td> <td class="xl24" style="width: 98pt;" width="131">
</td> <td class="xl24" style="width: 48pt;" width="64">Relief </td> <td class="xl24" style="width: 48pt;" width="64">Fram Filter</td> </tr> <tr style="height: 13.2pt;" height="18"> <td class="xl28" style="height: 13.2pt;" height="18">
</td> <td class="xl29">
</td> <td class="xl29">
</td> <td class="xl29">Filter</td> <td class="xl29">Filter</td> <td class="xl29">~HP</td> <td class="xl29">
</td> <td class="xl29">Valve</td> <td class="xl28">
</td> </tr> <tr style="height: 15.6pt;" height="21"> <td class="xl26" style="height: 15.6pt; width: 52pt;" width="69" height="21">M2-12</td> <td class="xl25">M2-12</td> <td class="xl24">-</td> <td class="xl24">300209</td> <td class="xl27" style="width: 59pt;" width="78">298854</td> <td align="right">12</td> <td class="xl27" style="width: 98pt;" width="131">20mmx1.5mm Th'd</td> <td>12 #</td> <td class="xl24">PH3593A</td> </tr> <tr style="height: 13.2pt;" height="18"> <td class="xl26" style="height: 13.2pt; width: 52pt;" width="69" height="18">M-12</td> <td class="xl25">M-12</td> <td class="xl24">-</td> <td class="xl24">300209</td> <td class="xl27" style="width: 59pt;" width="78">298854</td> <td align="right">12</td> <td class="xl27" style="width: 98pt;" width="131">20mmx1.5mm Th'd</td> <td>12 #</td> <td class="xl24">PH3593A</td> </tr> <tr style="height: 13.2pt;" height="18"> <td class="xl26" style="height: 13.2pt; width: 52pt;" width="69" height="18">M-15</td> <td class="xl25">M-15</td> <td class="xl24">5411</td> <td class="xl24">299381</td> <td class="xl27" style="width: 59pt;" width="78">298854</td> <td align="right">15</td> <td class="xl30" style="width: 98pt;" width="131">3/4-16 Th'd</td> <td>12 #</td> <td>PH3614</td> </tr> <tr style="height: 13.8pt;" height="18"> <td class="xl26" style="height: 13.8pt; width: 52pt;" width="69" height="18">M-18</td> <td class="xl25">M-18</td> <td class="xl24">-</td> <td class="xl24">300209</td> <td class="xl27" style="width: 59pt;" width="78">298854</td> <td align="right">18</td> <td class="xl27" style="width: 98pt;" width="131">20mmx1.5mm Th'd</td> <td>12 #</td> <td class="xl24">PH3593A</td> </tr> <tr style="height: 13.2pt;" height="18"> <td class="xl26" style="height: 13.2pt; width: 52pt;" width="69" height="18">M3-20</td> <td class="xl25">M3-20</td> <td class="xl24">-</td> <td class="xl24">300209</td> <td class="xl27" style="width: 59pt;" width="78">298854</td> <td align="right">20</td> <td class="xl27" style="width: 98pt;" width="131">20mmx1.5mm Th'd</td> <td>12 #</td> <td class="xl24">PH3593A</td> </tr> <tr style="height: 13.2pt;" height="18"> <td class="xl26" style="height: 13.2pt; width: 52pt;" width="69" height="18">M-20</td> <td class="xl25">M-20</td> <td class="xl24">5416</td> <td class="xl24">299381</td> <td class="xl27" style="width: 59pt;" width="78">298854</td> <td align="right">20</td> <td class="xl30" style="width: 98pt;" width="131">3/4-16 Th'd</td> <td>12 #</td> <td>PH3614</td> </tr> <tr style="height: 13.2pt;" height="18"> <td class="xl26" style="height: 13.2pt; width: 52pt;" width="69" height="18">M-25</td> <td class="xl25">M-25</td> <td class="xl24">5421</td> <td class="xl24">300209</td> <td class="xl27" style="width: 59pt;" width="78">298854</td> <td align="right">21</td> <td class="xl27" style="width: 98pt;" width="131">20mmx1.5mm Th'd</td> <td>12 #</td> <td class="xl24">PH3593A</td> </tr> <tr style="height: 13.2pt;" height="18"> <td class="xl26" style="height: 13.2pt; width: 52pt;" width="69" height="18">M-25XP</td> <td class="xl25">M-25XP</td> <td class="xl24">-</td> <td class="xl24">300209</td> <td class="xl27" style="width: 59pt;" width="78">298854</td> <td align="right">23</td> <td class="xl27" style="width: 98pt;" width="131">20mmx1.5mm Th'd</td> <td>12 #</td> <td class="xl24">PH3593A</td> </tr> <tr style="height: 13.2pt;" height="18"> <td class="xl26" style="height: 13.2pt; width: 52pt;" width="69" height="18">M4-30</td> <td class="xl25">M4-30</td> <td class="xl24">-</td> <td class="xl24">300209</td> <td class="xl27" style="width: 59pt;" width="78">298854</td> <td align="right">30</td> <td class="xl27" style="width: 98pt;" width="131">20mmx1.5mm Th'd</td> <td>12 #</td> <td class="xl24">PH3593A</td> </tr> <tr style="height: 13.2pt;" height="18"> <td class="xl26" style="height: 13.2pt; width: 52pt;" width="69" height="18">M-30</td> <td class="xl25">M-30</td> <td class="xl24">5424</td> <td class="xl24">299381</td> <td class="xl27" style="width: 59pt;" width="78">298854</td> <td align="right">30</td> <td class="xl30" style="width: 98pt;" width="131">3/4-16 Th'd</td> <td>12 #</td> <td>PH3614</td> </tr> <tr style="height: 13.2pt;" height="18"> <td class="xl26" style="height: 13.2pt; width: 52pt;" width="69" height="18">M-35</td> <td class="xl25">M-35</td> <td class="xl24">-</td> <td class="xl24">300209</td> <td class="xl27" style="width: 59pt;" width="78">298854</td> <td align="right">35</td> <td class="xl27" style="width: 98pt;" width="131">20mmx1.5mm Th'd</td> <td>12 #</td> <td class="xl24">PH3593A</td> </tr> <tr style="height: 13.2pt;" height="18"> <td class="xl26" style="height: 13.2pt; width: 52pt;" width="69" height="18">M-40</td> <td class="xl25">M-40</td> <td class="xl24">-</td> <td class="xl24">299927</td> <td class="xl27" style="width: 59pt;" width="78">298854</td> <td align="right">40</td> <td class="xl30" style="width: 98pt;" width="131">3/4-16 Th'd</td> <td>9-15 #</td> <td>PH43</td> </tr> <tr style="height: 13.2pt;" height="18"> <td class="xl26" style="height: 13.2pt; width: 52pt;" width="69" height="18">M-50</td> <td class="xl25">M-50</td> <td class="xl24">5444</td> <td class="xl24">299927</td> <td class="xl27" style="width: 59pt;" width="78">298854</td> <td align="right">50</td> <td class="xl30" style="width: 98pt;" width="131">3/4-16 Th'd</td> <td>9-15 #</td> <td>PH43</td> </tr> </tbody></table>
The Fram fuel filter is P7514.

Here is an interchangeability list for the for the Universal 300209 lube oil filter:

<table style="width: 306px; height: 132px;" border="0" cellpadding="0" cellspacing="0"><col style="width: 48pt;" width="64"> <col style="width: 65pt;" width="87"> <col style="width: 67pt;" width="89"> <tbody><tr style="height: 13.2pt;" height="18"> <td class="xl24" style="height: 13.2pt; width: 48pt;" width="64" height="18">Universal</td> <td class="xl25" style="width: 65pt;" width="87">300209</td> <td class="xl26" style="width: 67pt;" width="89">
</td> </tr> <tr style="height: 13.2pt;" height="18"> <td class="xl27" style="height: 13.2pt;" height="18">Napa </td> <td class="xl28">1334</td> <td class="xl29">21334</td> </tr> <tr style="height: 13.2pt;" height="18"> <td class="xl27" style="height: 13.2pt;" height="18">Fram</td> <td class="xl28">PH3593A</td> <td class="xl29">
</td> </tr> <tr style="height: 13.2pt;" height="18"> <td class="xl27" style="height: 13.2pt;" height="18">STP</td> <td class="xl28">S2808</td> <td class="xl29">
</td> </tr> <tr style="height: 13.2pt;" height="18"> <td class="xl27" style="height: 13.2pt;" height="18">Wix</td> <td class="xl28">51334</td> <td class="xl29">
</td> </tr> <tr style="height: 13.2pt;" height="18"> <td class="xl27" style="height: 13.2pt;" height="18">Purolator</td> <td class="xl28">L14459</td> <td class="xl29">
</td> </tr> </tbody></table>
Sizes vary.

<table style="width: 256px; height: 212px;" border="0" cellpadding="0" cellspacing="0"><col style="width: 48pt;" width="64"> <col style="width: 65pt;" width="87"> <col style="width: 67pt;" width="89"> <tbody><tr style="height: 13.8pt;" height="18"> <td class="xl26" colspan="2" style="height: 13.8pt; width: 113pt;" width="151" height="18">Fuel Filter</td> <td class="xl27" style="width: 67pt;" width="89">Dimensions</td> </tr> <tr style="height: 13.2pt;" height="18"> <td class="xl28" style="height: 13.2pt;" height="18">Universal</td> <td class="xl29">298854</td> <td class="xl30">2.75 x 2.5L</td> </tr> <tr style="height: 13.2pt;" height="18"> <td class="xl31" style="height: 13.2pt;" height="18">Napa </td> <td class="xl32">3390</td> <td class="xl25">
</td> </tr> <tr style="height: 13.2pt;" height="18"> <td class="xl31" style="height: 13.2pt;" height="18">Fram</td> <td class="xl32">P7514</td> <td class="xl25">
</td> </tr> <tr style="height: 13.2pt;" height="18"> <td class="xl31" style="height: 13.2pt;" height="18">Purolator</td> <td class="xl32">F50262</td> <td class="xl25">
</td> </tr> <tr style="height: 13.2pt;" height="18"> <td class="xl31" style="height: 13.2pt;" height="18">Deutch</td> <td class="xl33">D484</td> <td class="xl34">FP570F</td> </tr> <tr style="height: 13.2pt;" height="18"> <td class="xl31" style="height: 13.2pt;" height="18">Wix</td> <td class="xl32">33390</td> <td class="xl25">
</td> </tr> <tr style="height: 13.2pt;" height="18"> <td class="xl31" style="height: 13.2pt;" height="18">Hastings</td> <td class="xl32">FF1119</td> <td class="xl35">
</td></tr></tbody></table>
I think I supplied this info before. It's on an Excel file if anyone wants it.

 

[bayhoss]

Tom, my reference was to go from oil filter number to oil filter number. I wasnt suggesting going from belt to oil filter. (unless I have completly misunderstood your post - which carries a high rate of possibility )

Best,
Frank

 

[adavid]

I went through the same think on my '86 E28. I ended up going with a NAPA belt that is a 1/2" shorter than the Westerbeke version that I had, and all is well now.

 

[stgermain45]

Thanks for the input, everyone. I went ahead and put on a belt that is 1/2" shorter, and it still hits the oil filter. The two belt sizes I've tried are the only two belt sizes that will fit with the alternator and bracket the way they are. In fact, I had to pull the alternator in order to provide extra clearance to slide the new belt on the pulleys. I may have to go with Frank's advice and go with the smaller diameter Fram filter. Kind of a bummer since I have two brand new spares of the Universal filters.

 

[bayhoss]

I tried belt after belt including one from NAPA. I finally gave up and went to the smaller filter. If you do find a belt that will clear, please post it, I'd be interested in the info for future use.

Best,
Frank

 

[stgermain45]

Frank,

I don't think my solution lies with a belt size. The two belt sizes that fit for me are a Gates 7360 and Gates 7355, the latter being better since I can more precisely adjust the tension to the proper 1/2" deflection. Gates 7360 would be a cross-number for what the manual calls for the M12. I tried a full inch smaller (Gates 7350), but could not get it on my pulleys - this may have cleared the filter but was too short for me due to alternator size/placement. Maybe it would work for you. Of course, these are just Gates brands, but I just can't see how any other belt would alleviate my problem. The filter is located too close to the area of belt travel. We're talking millimeters here! Going with the wider "green stripe" belts as recommended by Tom and others in the forum Loren linked to would not work for me. The wider belt would literally rest against the filter with the engine off!

In my case, using the smallest possible cross-referenced oil filter, like the Fram you recommended, is probably the way to go. I imagine everyone will have slightly varying results even with the same engine and alternator, but this has been my experience thus far.

 

[stgermain45]

Frank,

I finally got around to changing my oil yesterday and found that the Fram PH3593A filter is exactly the same width as the Universal filter. I decided to just put on the Universal filter again since I already had a spare. Was this Fram filter the one that gave you extra clearance? I haven't checked the other compatible filters from Tom's chart (thanks Tom!), but the Fram PH3593A doesn't give me any added clearance for the belt.

Thanks,
Chris

 

[Tom Metzger]

Chris - The Universal & Fram filters have the smallest diameters.

Newer info:

<table width="245" border="0" cellpadding="0" cellspacing="0"><col style="width: 48pt;" width="64"> <col style="width: 65pt;" width="87"> <col style="width: 71pt;" width="94"> <tbody><tr style="height: 17.4pt;" height="23"> <td colspan="3" class="xl35" style="border-right: 1pt solid black; height: 17.4pt; width: 184pt;" width="245" height="23">Universal M-25XP</td> </tr> <tr style="height: 13.8pt;" height="18"> <td class="xl25" colspan="2" style="height: 13.8pt;" height="18">Lube Oil Filter</td> <td class="xl26">Dimensions</td> </tr> <tr style="height: 13.2pt;" height="18"> <td class="xl27" style="height: 13.2pt;" height="18">Universal</td> <td class="xl28">300209</td> <td class="xl29">3 x 3.5L</td> </tr> <tr style="height: 13.2pt;" height="18"> <td class="xl30" style="height: 13.2pt;" height="18">Napa </td> <td class="xl31">1334</td> <td class="xl34">21334</td> </tr> <tr style="height: 13.2pt;" height="18"> <td class="xl30" style="height: 13.2pt;" height="18">Fram</td> <td class="xl31">PH3593A</td> <td class="xl32">3.02Dia x 3.39</td> </tr> <tr style="height: 13.2pt;" height="18"> <td class="xl30" style="height: 13.2pt;" height="18">STP</td> <td class="xl31">S2808</td> <td class="xl32">
</td> </tr> <tr style="height: 13.2pt;" height="18"> <td class="xl30" style="height: 13.2pt;" height="18">Wix</td> <td class="xl31">51334</td> <td class="xl32">3.252Dia x3.194</td> </tr> <tr style="height: 13.2pt;" height="18"> <td class="xl30" style="height: 13.2pt;" height="18">Purolator</td> <td class="xl31">L14459</td> <td class="xl32">3.15Dia x 2.95</td> </tr> <tr style="height: 13.2pt;" height="18"> <td class="xl30" style="height: 13.2pt;" height="18">
</td> <td class="xl33">
</td> <td class="xl32">
</td> </tr> </tbody></table>The NAPA filters are made by Wix and are the same size. I measured the Universal filter roughly, so it may well be the same as the Fram filter.

 

[stgermain45]

Thanks for that info, Tom! I think it's just something I need to live with. Maybe I'll take a file to the lip of the filter where the belt hits.

 

[mherrcat]

I replaced the Purolator PureOne PL14459 filter on my M18 engine with the PL14610, which is almost 1/2" smaller in diameter. I did this because of the way my coolant hose runs between the filter and the alternator bracket.

The only difference I can see other than the size is that the relief valve P.S.I. on the PL14459 is 12-15 and on the PL14610 it is 14-18. Don't know if that makes a whole bunch of difference.

The extra 1/4" on either side of the filter might help your belt problem.

Interestingly the PL14459 is also the filter that cross references to my 1994 Honda Accord, but the Purolator filter is larger. The OEM Honda filter matches the smaller size of the PL14610. I guess the only difference is in the size and the relief valve pressure. Maybe you could use the Honda filter as well.

By the way, from what I have read over the years regarding filter construction, the Purolator filters are much better than the Fram; just about anything is...

 

[bayhoss]

Stgermain 45,
Sorry to be so long getting back to you. I used the Fram 3593A and got the needed space. Not much - but enough to clear the belt.
Interesting that the Purlator 14459 would fit, it's the same filter that fits my Hyundai Sonata.

Best Always,
Frank