Unusual rig dimensions

[Christian Williams]

Does the cabin house/deck have the standard molded pylons for a traveler? Does it have the typical aluminum channel spanning the pylons?

I ask because it matters for the cabin house traveler options. More here:

http://www.ericsonyachts.org/infoexchange/entry.php?583-Ericson-38-Ronstan-Traveler-Upgrade

 

[markvone]

Mark - I think you may be right on the keel. It sure looks like the std. keel shape, then just cut short and a wing added. I'll have to make some measurements one of these days and compare. I'm not sure that accounts for the extra 950 lbs though, especially considering the missing furniture.

Her previous name, maybe with the original owner, was Blitz. We have a couple early owners' names on some papers somewhere but, of course, I can't find them.

Since I don't think the mast is taller, the boom must be lower to get the extra foot for "P." The rig is off, but there is what I think is a spar-tite collar. I measure 46 inches from the top of the spar-tite, pretty close to deck level, to the gooseneck pin. Does anybody know the distance from deck to boom on a standard 38-200? I am worried that we won't be able to move the traveler back to the cabin top, and if we do are we going to be able to fit a dodger under the main sheet?

Second question is about the mast. With only in-line lower shrouds do the running back stays become critical for mast support or are they mostly just fun strings to pull to play with sail tuning?

Mike

Hi Mike,
Measurements and close comparison to a competition keel could confirm. Cutting off 10 inches of the relatively small and thin E38 competition keel tip to reduce draft would be the obvious approach for any non-racer who loved the boat (except for the draft) and was here in the Chesapeake. Adding back the lead weight as "high performance wings" instead of the Mars metal bulb was done for a while during the wing keel craze. Lastly, I just don't see someone changing complete keels for only a 10 inch draft reduction. And if they did. why select a custom wing keel (if that's what you have) with only a 10 inch reduction when changing to one of the existing Ericson shoal keels would get the draft down to 4'11" for less cost with a proven design?

I would consider the extra listed weight value as highly suspect. Where did that data come from? Broker's are famous for repeating incorrect info from sellers. Did someone weigh the boat? Is that 950# for just the keel? FWIW, the E38-200 is listed with 800# of internal ballast. If I were setting up my new E38 for racing in the Bay I'd be pulling that 800# of internal ballast out AND adding sail area. I'd look around in the bilge to see if you can find where the internal ballast is/was and what you have. It is also possible that a PO added internal ballast, back to 800# if it was removed for racing or more because they felt the boat was "tender" compared to their previous Westsail 32 or forgot how to reef.

The E36RH has a double spreader rig with inline lowers and check stays. My check stays attach to the mast at mid height and are not needed for typical sailing conditions. I have my check stays rigged to the mast but clipped to the chainplates (out of the way) most of the time. I have used them sailing upwind in 3 foot seas (which is pretty rare on the Bay) to stop mast pumping a few times. I should add that my current mast is a larger, less bendy section than the original E36RH mast and should be MUCH stiffer than the triple spreader mast you currently have BUT I also have my mast setup with minimum pre-bend, more pre-bend helps prevent pumping, so it's hard to compare. I do know that the E36RH (and J/35) with the standard, lighter Kenyon mast don't need the checkstays for normal sailing.

If you don't know the mast maker and section you have, while the rig is out of the boat, I would trace the outline of the foot/base of the mast onto a piece of cardboard like the back of a pad and measure your section width and length from that drawing (I would do it anyway to verify). I did this to verify my mast is not the original mast and a bigger section. You can determine what mast section you have (since it's not the stock mast) with the dimensions and who made it. A rigger can tell you what to expect from the section, i.e. extremely bendy - need checkstays all the time or something less bendy.

Mark

 

[Loren Beach]

Whither the Sheet

Really want to move the main sheet to the cabin top. We do not want an unhappy Admiral now, do we? Without thinking it through, I've wondered about being able to leave it set up so that a cockpit mounted traveler/mainsheet could be swapped in for the longer races.

You are right to consider the Admiral's needs... Good Call.


Altho I would only point out that Kathy (and everyone else that sails on our boat) likes the mainsheet on the bridge deck. Reason? When loaded up and solid while sailing it makes an *excellent* handhold when entering or exiting the interior.
At rest, we always set it up tight against the up-force of the halyard clipped to the boom end, and then it's also a safe hand hold.
I have considered adding an extra ss hand hold loop on either side of the companionway just to make things even safer, but that's on the "someday" list.

So whatever you do, it's right for you.
Just do not blindly copy the mainsheet arrangement of 89% of all sailboats, where the housetop traveler location is only there to assuage the concerns of a non-sailing spouse, while viewing the proposed purchase inside a huge warm building in January, and wants to keep all "those silly rope-y things" out of the way while contemplating next summer's floating entertainment.

I used to help 'work' the boat show for a dealer, and have heard comments like that. (Yikes)

And then there was the time that another vendor had a lady somehow get on a lightweight racing boat with her high heels still on her feet, and.... punched a small hole thru the deck.... :0
Good Old Days., indeed.

 

[Christian Williams]

Re winged keel:

I notice that Hammy is selling his 1986 boat ("For Sale" Forum) and it has apparently a stock Ericson wing keel:

GENERAL SPECIFICATIONS
LOA: 38’ (11.6m)
Beam:12’ (3.7m)
Draft: 5’6” - Shoal draft wing keel

 

[Merrimist]

1986 E38200 Shoal draft Wing Keel

Hi Christian,

yes I am putting my 38200 on the market, fingers crossed, with hope going to enthusiastic sailing type new owner.

My understanding is that the shoal draft 5'6" fitted wing keel is original.

A blend of intermediacy, being some reduction in pointing, yet allowing access to some shallower waterways compared to the deep fin keel design.

Hammy in chilly right now, Bermuda.

 

[Mike_W.]

The reason I thought this was a non-standard keel is that Sailboatdata lists the standard wing keel at 5' draft. If the standard is closer to 5'6" then maybe our keel is standard. I know better than to entirely trust what is listed on that a website. It's a great site and I'm sure we all use it but they cannot verify every number that they get. Same thing with the displacement. It is listed at 15500. Documents I have list Redbeard at 16450 and 16705. Considering that there are no drawers or cabinet doors in the fore-cabin, plus no stove or refrigeration I just assumed that that there was extra ballast somewhere.

One of those docs is attached. It answers another question. It lists the owners as Douglas and Eric Smith. Since it is dated May-1987, and Redbeard, formerly Blitz, is a 1987 vessel, They must be the original owners.

I am still anxious about the boom height. Our purchase included 10 bags of sails, nearly all in very good or better condition. A nice crisp black 155 headsail. Another just like it only not so crisp. 0.5, .75, and 1.25 spinnakers plus an asym with a snuffer. A staysail with it's own roller, a practically new #3 head sail, and a laminated dacron for the roller furler that is in at least good condition. Did you notice that I did not mention the main sail? We have no main sail. Since we need a new main sail I am, as noted above, anxious about the boom height.

If we had a serviceable main then the answer is easy. Just go sailing. But we need to buy one, so if we are going to raise the boom it would be good to know sooner rather than too late. Is our boom truly is one foot lower than standard? If anyone can share a measurement from the cabin top to the gooseneck pin, or some other dimension that I can use for comparison it would be appreciated.

Mike

 

[bgary]

Documents I have list Redbeard at 16450 and 16705.

The document you attached is an IMS measurement certificate. the DISP figure under the IMS was generally *not* derived by actually weighing the boat - it was calculated based on the underwater volume of the boat as developed through measuring the hull at various measurement points.

If the boat was weighed, it was weighed with sails and all sailing gear (spinnaker pole, anchor and chain, etc) aboard and stowed in specific places.

Short version... I (personally) wouldn't take the DISP figure on that certificate as an accurate reflection of what the boat actually weighs...

(edited to add: note there are two different DISP figures on the cert, one for "measurement trim" (16705) and one for "sailing trim" (18759). My bet is that both of them are higher than the actual weight of your boat...)

$.02
Bruce

 

[Christian Williams]

>>>It's a great site and I'm sure we all use it but they cannot verify every number that they get.

But we can. Sailboatdata relies on us to correct the vast amount of bad information about our boats, and is quick to fix anything you can point out to them.

 

[markvone]

The reason I thought this was a non-standard keel is that Sailboatdata lists the standard wing keel at 5' draft. If the standard is closer to 5'6" then maybe our keel is standard.

I am still anxious about the boom height. Our purchase included 10 bags of sails, nearly all in very good or better condition. A nice crisp black 155 headsail. Another just like it only not so crisp. 0.5, .75, and 1.25 spinnakers plus an asym with a snuffer. A staysail with it's own roller, a practically new #3 head sail, and a laminated dacron for the roller furler that is in at least good condition. Did you notice that I did not mention the main sail? We have no main sail. Since we need a new main sail I am, as noted above, anxious about the boom height.

If we had a serviceable main then the answer is easy. Just go sailing. But we need to buy one, so if we are going to raise the boom it would be good to know sooner rather than too late. Is our boom truly is one foot lower than standard? If anyone can share a measurement from the cabin top to the gooseneck pin, or some other dimension that I can use for comparison it would be appreciated.

Mike

Mike,

I've attached the Ericson keel info previously posted here. The shoal fin draft was listed as 4'11" in the early E38-200 brochure I have and there is no draft listed for a wing version so it would be easy to assume the shoal fin and wing were the same draft. The factory wing shape is different than yours. The trailing edge of the factory wing angles back to the aft trailing edge of the vertical fin, your wing trailing edges are perpendicular to the vertical fin and attach to the middle of the fin.. I've seen a few factory wing keels (E26, E34) up close and they are more rounded and less angular than yours. I'll guess you have the original deep fin with the tip cut off for draft reduction and lead added back as wings during the wing keel era instead of a bulb. I know of one E36RH with a draft reduction wing keel:

http://www.ericsonyachts.org/infoex...g-of-Keel-Design&p=24029&highlight=#post24029
Here's a link to an E38 shoal keel with Mars Metal bulb added for more stability:

http://www.ericsonyachts.org/infoex...ics-of-an-E38-with-a-bulb-keel!&referrerid=28



As for your mainsail, I would rig up the boom and see if the height is workable, not too low for head or dodger clearance. If OK height wise, then leave it and enjoy more sail area in light wind. A good sailmaker will measure for exact fit of any new sail, if not he's measuring your boat get a new sailmaker! The lower boom will change your racing rating if that's an issue. But so will the custom keel and the custom mast.

Lastly, you should check all your jib luff lengths to see which ones fit on your furler (and furl) and which jibs may be setup just for racing (longer luff) and only fit the full foil length with the drum removed and no upper swivel . I have one old kevlar race 150 like this that I keep as a spare.

Mark