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What’s your E38-200 Cruising Speed in slack water?

Dave P

Junior Member
Was out this Memorial Day weekend for a four day cruise from Tacoma towards south Puget Sound and back. Motoring mostly, and on the hook the rest of the time.

Boat speed indicates ~ 4.5 knts at 2300 rpm (Universal M-40 with folding Max Prop), and not towing a dingy. With tides we saw SOG of 1.9knts to 10.3knts.

Was speaking with other sailors and hearing reports of ~ 6+knts while motoring in slack water.

What’s your boat cruise at?
 

Loren Beach

O34 - Portland, OR
Senior Moderator
Blogs Author
I have done a delivery up the WA coast on an E-38-200, and we motored at about 7 to 8 kt, water speed.
A quibble: a "max prop" is a feathering prop and is not a folding prop. Is your 'max' a two or a three blade?

A needed "edit" to my recollection: I do not know when the KM on that boat was calibrated, so the readout might be high. However, we were towing enough of a stern wave that I was sure we were at 7 or better. There was a moderate sea, running with us, too.
 
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Dave P

Junior Member
I have done a delivery up the WA coast on an E-38-200, and we motored at about 7 to 8 kt, water speed.
A quibble: a "max prop" is a feathering prop and is not a folding prop. Is your 'max' a two or a three blade?
The boat has a (3) three bladed feathering prop.

7-8 kts motoring speed sounds great!

Any ideas to look into for the boat speed (the boat’s bottom is clean).
 

Loren Beach

O34 - Portland, OR
Senior Moderator
Blogs Author
The boat has a (3) three bladed feathering prop
I wish I had one of those.
Unless the engine shows signs of being overloaded at cruising RPM's, I would suspect that the prop is under pitched. Double check, with other owners of sister ships what the best/maximum diameter should be, also.

Has someone actually measured the tip-to-hull closest distance, when your boat was out of the water?

For instance, our boat has a 15" prop and increasing the diameter might put it too close to the hull. I found this fairly-concise quote on the 'net about this and it matches my recollection of the minimum distance:
"Tip clearance is the distance from the tip of the propeller blades to any part of the hull. The typical sailboat tip clearance is approximately 10% of the propeller diameter, depending upon hull shape above and below the propeller blades."

So, on our boat that measures to 1.5 inches. I once turned down a Very Good Deal on a used three-blade feathering prop because it had a 16 inch diameter, and I still occasionally wonder if my decision was correct.
:rolleyes:Oh well..... life goes on.
 

Christian Williams

E381 - Los Angeles
Senior Moderator
Blogs Author
2200 RPMs gives me 5.5 knots. 2400 PRMS is 6-6.5, my usual cruising speed. WOT gives 7.2 max at 2700 RPM , at which point the transom buries and the engine noise is too much.

I have never seen anywhere near 8 knots under power. Theoretical hull speed is something like 7.4.

E381, fixed Michigan 3-blade prop, diameter 15 marked pitch 12 measured pitch of wheel 11.861. Universal 5432 32 hp.

It is useful to confirm the boat's tach reading with a cheap laser rpm reader. I think if you idle at 800 or so, and can get the propeller to 2800 or so (for the 5432), things are about right. Much depends on the prop, perfection is elusive, and any growth on the hull changes everything.
 

ConchyDug

Member III
I have a 15" Maxprop 3 blade feathering prop with 26° degrees of pitch in it. PYI sells pitch screws stamped with degrees which allows you to fine tune. I'd have to look at the PYI chart to figure out the 1RPM thru the water measurement but it's probably in the 12-13" realm. I get similar speeds as CW. If you contact PYI they are super responsive and helpful with getting your prop right.
 

driftless

Member III
Blogs Author
Our engine seems to really like 2200 rpms on the tach. Everything runs nice and smooth at that speed. That pushes us along at about 6 knots.
2 blade Michigan fixed prop, don't recall the specs.
 

southofvictor

Member III
Blogs Author
Wow, 6 kts at 2200 is nice!

Thanks for posting this Dave, I’ve been wondering about our prop and motoring speed as well.

We have a Yanmar 3YM30 with a 17” 3 blade Maxprop

2400 RPM makes 5.3 kts no smoke 150F
2850 RPM makes 5.8 kts no smoke 160F
3350 RPM makes 6.2 kts with a little white smoke 175F transom squats below water and boat pulls to starboard. holding course knocks .1 to .2 off speed.

I’ve been wondering about our pitch. I’ve attached a pic, but don‘t know exactly where the pitch is set. I may contact PYI for their thoughts, thanks for the info Doug.
 

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ConchyDug

Member III
Victor that's a MaxProp Easy model, I have the same model it allows "easy" adjustment of the pitch while in the water by a careful diver. Also PYI has a whole range of pitch screw sizes, the screws also have like 8-10 notches for even more adjustment. I think one full rotation counterclockwise will reduce the pitch 1° but definitely check the manual it might be 2°. Might be worth checking that the rotation is set right IE the curved edge is the leading edge in FWD/REV. Oh and the PYI cone zincs fit better than the other brands like Camp, the hole pattern is offset on the Camp zincs and have to be reamed a bit to fit.
 

Dave P

Junior Member
Everyone, Thanks for replies & insight. Next steps will be to 1) check knotmeter calibration, 2) dig through paperwork to see what I’ve got for details on prop, 3) do some more homework on props & speeds (Sailboatdata.com shows 7.4kt hull speed), 4) make decisions in advance of planned ‘25 haul out, 5) sail more & motor less. Here’s to fair winds & favorable tides!
DRP on Wavewalker, E38-200 #308
 

Seth

Sustaining Partner
Was out this Memorial Day weekend for a four day cruise from Tacoma towards south Puget Sound and back. Motoring mostly, and on the hook the rest of the time.

Boat speed indicates ~ 4.5 knts at 2300 rpm (Universal M-40 with folding Max Prop), and not towing a dingy. With tides we saw SOG of 1.9knts to 10.3knts.

Was speaking with other sailors and hearing reports of ~ 6+knts while motoring in slack water.

What’s your boat cruise at?
As had been said, depending on your prop you should easily be able to make 6-7 knots through flat water. That is boatspeed, not SOG. Current and waves can affect SOG. You really need to check your SOG in an area of no current or during slack water, If you are motoring at 6.1 knots into a 4 knot current, your SOG will be 2.1 knots and if you are motoring with the current it will b 10.1. But if your boatspeed indicates 4.5 at typical cruise power settings, it is either a prop pitch problem or a calibration issue with your boatspeed indicator. That said, 2300 RPM does sound a little slow for best performance. I have not seen the manual for that engine but most marine diesel engines run between 2700 and 3000 rpm. Is thee a reason you operate at such a low RPM? That could be part of the issue
 

Dave P

Junior Member
As had been said, depending on your prop you should easily be able to make 6-7 knots through flat water. That is boatspeed, not SOG. Current and waves can affect SOG. You really need to check your SOG in an area of no current or during slack water, If you are motoring at 6.1 knots into a 4 knot current, your SOG will be 2.1 knots and if you are motoring with the current it will b 10.1. But if your boatspeed indicates 4.5 at typical cruise power settings, it is either a prop pitch problem or a calibration issue with your boatspeed indicator. That said, 2300 RPM does sound a little slow for best performance. I have not seen the manual for that engine but most marine diesel engines run between 2700 and 3000 rpm. Is thee a reason you operate at such a low RPM? That could be part of the issue
Tachometer goes a little past 3k rpm, so not planning to operate at full throttle. 70% of 3k rpm gets me to 2100rpm, so that’s around where we’ve motored at. Hull speed is 7.4 knts, so 7 knts motoring feels a bit aspirational with current setup. We have seen hull speed+ under sail though! I would like to see ~6 knts motoring instead of the current 4.5 which would be nice .

Boat speed in slack water is 4.5 knts at 2200rpm. 2500rpm doesn’t add much ~ a little more than a tenth of a knot, and a whole lot more noise. Fuel consumption, typically 0.7 gph burn at 2200rpm, probably increases too, but is still pretty modest. Checking engine specs for OEM recommended cruise RPM is on the punch list.

The intent of noting SOG for incoming & outgoing tides in addition to slack water boat speed is for me to be keep track of how we’re doing with & against the tide for trip planning. This the whole reason why I’d like to be motoring at 6 knts vs 4.5. Always good to hear of how others are set up and operating too.
 

Pete the Cat

Sustaining Member
Wow, 6 kts at 2200 is nice!

Thanks for posting this Dave, I’ve been wondering about our prop and motoring speed as well.

We have a Yanmar 3YM30 with a 17” 3 blade Maxprop

2400 RPM makes 5.3 kts no smoke 150F
2850 RPM makes 5.8 kts no smoke 160F
3350 RPM makes 6.2 kts with a little white smoke 175F transom squats below water and boat pulls to starboard. holding course knocks .1 to .2 off speed.

I’ve been wondering about our pitch. I’ve attached a pic, but don‘t know exactly where the pitch is set. I may contact PYI for their thoughts, thanks for the info Doug.
I would suggest you are under pitched.
 

Pete the Cat

Sustaining Member
Our engine seems to really like 2200 rpms on the tach. Everything runs nice and smooth at that speed. That pushes us along at about 6 knots.
2 blade Michigan fixed prop, don't recall the specs.
Seems a bit overpitched to me. You should be able to get hull speed at the engine's max RPM according to David Gerr's Propeller Handbook.
 

Vtonian

E38 - Vashon
My 'as bought' 57hp Yanmar with Ewol feathering prop gets to ~hull speed way too quickly and trying to push it to recommended operating RPM/temperature just buries the transom and flushes the fuel budget. I've never seen it hit recommended temps.
I had been thinking of adjusting the prop for less pitch, more RPM's but then ran across info about maybe that would give it too light a workload and still not achieve rec op temps, so at this point, I'm with you: more research, more input from the manufacturer, and with the warmer weather here, time to find the rest of my wetsuit and put eyeballs on it before I spend any money on conceptual solutions.
In the meantime, the recommended work around is to remember to occasionally crank it up and, before shutting down, rev it several times to blow out the inevitable carbon build up from running it too slow/cool.
These common rail diesels depend on temp to meet emmission standards, so are just a different breed than the classic chuggers we grew up with.
Anecdotally, while working out how to correct the backwards throttle issue created by the POs engine swap, I realized there's no mechanical link between the throttle and the engine. The throttle lever has an electronic sensor on it that tells the computer what you're trying to do, so all I had to do was spin the lever around and connect the cable from the other side.
Kinda spooky, I feel a bit out of control with the computer more in charge than I am but I understand better now why there's a giant, red kill button on top of the engine.
 

Christian Williams

E381 - Los Angeles
Senior Moderator
Blogs Author
Dave, the bottom line is that the E38 with M-40 will cruise happily at 6-6.5 knots and an RPM 2300-2500.

Excluding current, wind, a barnacle farm on the hull and major tach error, it's your prop.

I was just out today, and at WOT managed 7.1 knots. But WOT drives the engine temperature up beyond my normal 180 after 10 minutes and the engine sounds like it's about to blow up. A good expected cruise speed in calm water is 6.5 knots, which today was about 2400 RPMs.

That RPM is remarkably quiet on my boat these days, in cabin and in cockpit, after insulating for engine noise. Insulation makes a dramatic improvement.

 

Saverio

Member III
Hi everyone, I have a 38 200 from 1987, Universal 32 hp engine, I have a Max Prop 3-blade 16 inch diameter propeller, easily adjustable pitch, the best compromise is 14 inch, I have done a lot of tests in the 4 years that I have it, it reaches 2800, 7.5 kn without problems, no overheating and white smoke, excellent traction with the tide against it and a rough sea of 5 kn, under sail it doesn't close like a duck's bill, it opens to a flag, you gain almost 1 kn, pay attention to maintenance and the reverse gear, you must wait to put it on only when the boat is almost stationary otherwise the rotation gears will be ruined. Xavier
 

Puget sailor

Member II
Something else to consider before entering the rabbit hole of prop pitch etc. You mentioned the bottom was clean. Fair enough, fresh bottom paint and a little dockside scrub on a stick will accomplish that. But how about the prop? Since they don’t enjoy the benefit of bottom paint, if you have not had the boat hauled this year in Puget Sound, or had the prop cleaned by a diver in the last 15 -30 days, it’s safe to assume your prop is not clean. A tiny little bit of growth, even soft growth and little weeds on the trailing edge will destroy prop efficiency. Especially in reverse, but in forward too. I’m further north in Port Madison (e32-3) and already my prop is growing stuff steadily this spring. Especially with the crappy cool wet weather we’re having, I have not been out often. Unless you know the prop is fresh and clean, get a diver to scrub it, then go try for speed under power. A slightly scummy prop will not produce thrust at normal engine speeds as one would expect. Engine loads up, revs, and sounds normal, but the thrust is just not there. Doesn’t need to be barnacles either, just the thinnest layer of growth. We seem to have some kind of hairy weed that forms on props in Puget Sound, and it just wreaks havoc on performance. First 6-9 months after haul out is great, after that need a diver often, especially in spring and summer. I left the dock today after not being out for a month, and could barely get to 3 knots. I was able to partially clean the prop by going forward and then going full throttle in reverse. With the dirty prop it cavitates very badly, a frothy sea of tiny bubbles, very little reverse braking. Then quickly forward, then back and forth several times maybe 10-15 seconds each, idling between shifting of course. The cavitation (basically low temperature boiling on the low pressure sides of the blades) does cause some growth to break away. That process can restore maybe half or more of the lost thrust, but only a real manual scrub can give you a true sense of what’s going on. Diver is your friend! And have them do the speed transducer if have you have one too! Unless your boat has always been plagued by this problem, you most likely have a dirty prop. When the hill and prop are both clean, by boat which is shorter than yours will top out about when the transom starts to dive from hill speed, which is maybe 6.5 knots motoring level. I’d think an e38 should be good for 7 or 7.5 knots in flat water based on waterline length, when everything is clean and smooth.
 

southofvictor

Member III
Blogs Author
Had a productive chat with PYI yesterday. They agree that we should try increasing pitch by 1 degree to try and bring our WOT RPM down to 3200. Will see what speeds I get then.

As @ConchyDug says above to get one degree we will either turn one full rotation clockwise with the existing screw or if it’s already all the way in we will go up one screw (2 degree increment) and then back out by one rotation to get one degree increase in pitch.
 
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