Autohelm thoughts?

[p.gazibara]

Hey all,Cinderella (35-2) to sail around the world leaving next summer. Cinderella has a mis-match of instruments and I am wondering what the best option for an autopilot is. I currently have a KVH quadro system that came with the boat for windspeed/depth/boat speed. The boat also came with the control head for a Raymarine ST4000+ tiller pilot, but the drive was missing. The original fluxgate was replaced with a garmin compass.

My goal is to push the instruments to OpenCPN via Serial port. Hopefully I can use OpenCPN as a chartplotter for the trip, so I would also have to feed OpenCPN signal back to the autopilot.

Does anyone have any recommendations? I am pretty new to boat instrument systems, but it seems like it's pretty straightforward.

The autopilot was setup to run from connected to the tiller outside, and I am thinking I should move it below decks and connect it to the quadrant somehow. I haven't actually crawled back there yet to see what that would look like though.

While I'm at it I have a feeling I should retire the Raymarine ST4000+ since replacing the tiller drive is roughly the cost of a new auto-tiller.

If you haven't guessed, Cindy was converted from wheel to tiller steering.

Thanks!
-P

 

[Loren Beach]

http://www.ericsonyachts.org/infoexchange/showthread.php?11407-Recommendation-for-Autopilots

Found with a short search via Google, using "ericsonyachts.org autopilot". There are quite a number of threads.

And this:
http://www.ericsonyachts.org/infoexchange/showthread.php?4086-autopilot-vs-windvane

Happy researching.

Regards,
Loren

 

[bolbmw]

You may find that many autopilot systems only integrate in with the manufacturers chartplotter, etc. I can't say for certain with OpenCPN. I have a ST4000+ wheel pilot and ST40 instruments. I recently added a B&G Zeus2 MFD and with the seatalk to seatalk NG converter, am able to share information from NMEA 2000 instruments to seatalk and vice versa. The ST4000+ receives some information (like DTW) from the Zeus2, but the Zeus2 cannot control the autopilot. I don't see that as a major issue.

If you're considering replacing the auto pilot I would highly recommend choosing a multi function display from a brand that matches your autopilot of choice if having the MFD control the autopilot is important to you. Most are proprietary.

What I do see high value in, especially with distance cruising with a wheel versus tiller is to have a below decks hydraulic autopilot. That way if the wheel steering fails for any reason (eg cable snaps) you have a backup via the hydraulic system.

 

[toddster]

^ That's because the Raymarine/Autohelm pilots actually want data from two different data buses. Heading and wind from SeaTalk, and waypoint info from NMEA 0183. To get info from a laptop running OpenCPN to a tiller pilot, especially with different instrument brands, you probably need a multiplexer.

I got the Shipmodul MUX that also translates SeaTalk and has USB and WiFi. It takes some fiddling around with settings and jumper wires to make everything talk nicely. The array of terminal blocks to run all the jumper wires between the different devices takes up as much room as the devices! Don't forget to leave room...

 

[Martin King]

Check out Alpha Marine Systems. I think they moved to Mercer Island from the bay area. I had an Alpha 3000 on board my 39 and loved it. Their mechanical drive unit is low e draw, and very robust, i.e. reliable.

Martin

 

[Teranodon]

Hey all,Cinderella (35-2) to sail around the world leaving next summer. ....

Do you plan to install a windvane? I have only done a modest amount of blue water sailing, but I would not go out for more than a few days without one.

 

[Christian Williams]

How many crew?

 

[gadangit]

Check out Alpha Marine Systems. I think they moved to Mercer Island from the bay area. I had an Alpha 3000 on board my 39 and loved it. Their mechanical drive unit is low e draw, and very robust, i.e. reliable.

Martin

I've been ranging around looking for an autopilot as well. Interesting suggestion, never heard of them before. Their website is barebones, but they appear to have an intriguing alternative to the mainstream brands. Thanks for passing that along.

Chris

 

[ignacio]

Laptop/OpenCPN for Circumnavigation

Others have probably done this successfully, but I've found (and heard from other 35-II owners) that the mark II is a pretty wet ride. I had constant puddles of water on the floor pan, if that's what you have. There were few dry spots on board in my recent trip to Hawaii and back. As a consequence, one of my laptops stopped working. I attribute it to the salt and damp that got everywhere. I can't imagine having relied on it exclusively. Fortunately, I had a second, smaller notebook that I only used to download and view grib files, and for some route planning. For just getting my position, I have other GPS units that were much more convenient and faster, as well as a Raymarine MFD, which is far and above better equipped for the environment than a standard unprotected laptop. I wouldn't put a laptop in a prime role for that type of voyage, but maybe others have done it successfully. It also seems to add complexity and troubleshooting headaches when there are problems (and you can bet that there WILL be problems).

 

[Martin King]

I've been ranging around looking for an autopilot as well. Interesting suggestion, never heard of them before. Their website is barebones, but they appear to have an intriguing alternative to the mainstream brands. Thanks for passing that along.

Chris

The Alpha is great, unfortunately it won't work on a cruising 31 with the outboard rudder. The other system I've heard good things about is W-H autopilots, but have no direct experience with them.

Martin

 

[p.gazibara]

Do you plan to install a windvane? I have only done a modest amount of blue water sailing, but I would not go out for more than a few days without one.

I do not, unless I can find one in a bargain bin somewhere. After speaking with some cruisers from around the world that I met here in Seattle, I was talked into just getting a beefed up below deck autopilot.

 

[p.gazibara]

How many crew?

My girlfriend and I, and probably taking on friends for major ocean crossings.

 

[Joliba]

Windvane AND autopilot

Your trip sounds like a wonderful idea.Though a good below deck autopilot is a great thing, I believe for many reasons that a mechanical self-steering windvane is likely to be your most dependable and indispensable crew member circumnavigating an E35 short handed. There are many options for used units and homebuilt inexpensive vane systems. I would want both systems, but would definitely not depart without the vane. I'd be happy to discuss this with you. Feel free to private message me.
Mike Jacker

 

[Christian Williams]

With a full crew, autopilots are actually a luxury. In the old days, we just took turns steering and it made the watches go by.

Your decision will be based on many factors, and won't be easy or inexpensive.

Hefty autopilots are great and justly popular. They need power from big battery banks and probably solar help. They're hard to install and need spare parts. Ryan Levinson's blog shows his excellent installation on an E38.

Vane gears are very reliable, easy to maintain, and the installation can be pretty straightforward. They don't work without wind, though, so for motoring you still need electric.

Some people just bring a half-dozen tillermasters (they wear out).

Whatever you choose, you'll need to know how to maintain and fix it. The forces are strong and continual with moving parts.

 

[Mark F]

Hi -P,

You have or are going with electric propulsion, correct? If so, I think a wind vane is a must. You will want to limit your "house" loads and concentrate your electrical storage to propulsion use. In that same vein, you will want to address the light wind capabilities of your boat. I don't see these two aspects as negatives but they should be at the top of your design planning list. Every now and then on Craigslist you see a "deal" on a wind vane.

 

[Ryan L]

Your trip sounds like a wonderful idea.Though a good below deck autopilot is a great thing, I believe for many reasons that a mechanical self-steering windvane is likely to be your most dependable and indispensable crew member circumnavigating an E35 short handed. There are many options for used units and homebuilt inexpensive vane systems. I would want both systems, but would definitely not depart without the vane. I'd be happy to discuss this with you. Feel free to private message me.
Mike Jacker

There is some excellent info in this thread. We're on our second year of full time cruising including many open water passages and have had so far excellent experiences with our setup. We've also met dozens of cruisers and heard their stories good and bad. Here are what we've found:

1) Certain Windvane systems are exceptional for boats like ours. By far the most common system we see is the Monitor wind vane. It is what we have on our boat and it has worked nearly flawlessly for almost all of the 15,000 offshore miles we've sailed since leaving San Diego. If you can only have one autopilot I strongly recommend a windvane, specifically a Monitor.

2) When the windvane does not work (no wind, motoring, etc) our hydraulic autopilot works well and we're glad we have it. In fact, it's worked perfectly so far (knock wood) although we have many friends out here who have constant problems.

3) Personally I think it's a mistake to rely on OpenCPN as your primary plotter as computers use a lot of electricity and tend to not do well in the environment out here (salt, impacts from falling, etc) If you do not want a dedicated plotter then you may want to look into an iPad with a Lifeproof case to make it waterproof. This is the most popular solution we've seen and it seems to work well in real world although nowhere near as well as a dedicated plotter. The most popular iPad apps seem to be Navionics and iSailor. We use OpenCPN for route planning, especially using Google Earth overlays, and for weather interpretation (grib overlays, fleet code, etc) but underway we use our Zeus2 with our iPad running iSailor as backup. the Zeus2 is an INCREDIBLE unit! Well worth the cost. To get nav data to plotter/iPad/computer we use vYacht wifi multiplexer that takes 0183 data and puts it on wifi. Simple, reliable, inexpensive and let's you use OpenCPN and/or iPad from anywhere in the boat. Our Zeus2 can also be run via our iPad using GoFree (the Simrad,B&G wifi module). To run a ram you will need an autopilot "brain" separate from (but possibly integrated with) your nav system powerful enough to run whatever ram you choose. We have a Simrad brain running an Octopus hydraulic linear actuator (the ram). It is controlled by a stand-alone Simrad autopilot control that is networked to a backup Garmin GPS and our NEMA 2K network but usually the brain is controlled by our Zeus2. We chose systems designed to primarily handle boats with greater displacement than our E38 and that has proven to be a good decision we meet many people who chose systems designed for their size boat who have failures when conditions become rough or otherwise stress the units. All our autopilot systems have worked flawlessly so far.

4) If you're on a budget and looking for the most reliable, robust, energy efficient, simple system that combines the best of all worlds I would consider purchasing a Monitor "windwave" then adding a simple modification to attach an inexpensive electronic tiller pilot to steer when there is no wind or you're motoring. Basically the tiller pilot connects where the actual windvane attaches to your Monitor thus allowing the mechanical advantage of your monitor to turn the rudder instead of a hydraulic ram. This is a simple functional proven solution that meets your needs and is way less expensive than having a dedicated separate electric/hydraulic autopilot. It's so cost effective that you can purchase two tiller pilots (for a spare) and still spend less than a dedicated system. It's easy to find more info online.

5) As others have pointed out remember to factor in the cost of producing the extra power you need to run these computers, autopilots, etc. Including increased engine maintenance, solar panels, batteries, etc.

6) See #4...

If you're interested we have a YouTube channel with videos from our voyage. In a few weeks I'll be uploading one that has footage of our monitor steering our recent passage from the Tuamotu atolls to Tahiti. The channel is https://www.youtube.com/channel/UCs3WnQG-QeLq1ebfr0gBUhg

If you need more info we'll have internet for a few more days.

Good luck!

 

[p.gazibara]

Hi -P,

You have or are going with electric propulsion, correct? If so, I think a wind vane is a must. You will want to limit your "house" loads and concentrate your electrical storage to propulsion use. In that same vein, you will want to address the light wind capabilities of your boat. I don't see these two aspects as negatives but they should be at the top of your design planning list. Every now and then on Craigslist you see a "deal" on a wind vane.

My house system and motor system are completely separate banks. I plan on having plenty excess solar (700w) and will only be using the electric motor when docking (or so I think). Being that Cinderella was remasted with an Express 37 mast and boom, she moves very well in light air (that and the 4 spinnakers that came with the boat).

I am not opposed to a vane, but being a bit of a EE nerd, I am kinda excited to link everything to OpenCPN, so I would rather a beefy electrical system than spending top dollar on a vane.

-P

 

[Joliba]

P:
I'm curious, other than solar, how do you plan to generate electricity? With a circumnavigation of 3 years or so, you will likely encounter extended periods at anchor and at sea in overcast and rainy conditions. There are several alternatives and I wonder which ones you have chosen. Will you have refrigeration? A mechanical vane seems like a natural energy saver for one who plans not to motor for any long distance...when an electric autopilot is generally most desirable. I once used a homemade self steering windvane that worked flawlessly on our 30 foot boat. It doesn't need to be expensive.
M

 

[Ryan L]

My house system and motor system are completely separate banks. I plan on having plenty excess solar (700w) and will only be using the electric motor when docking (or so I think). Being that Cinderella was remasted with an Express 37 mast and boom, she moves very well in light air (that and the 4 spinnakers that came with the boat).

I am not opposed to a vane, but being a bit of a EE nerd, I am kinda excited to link everything to OpenCPN, so I would rather a beefy electrical system than spending top dollar on a vane.

-P

Couple quick thoughts...

We are running 700w solar in the tropics with no fridge and still we sometimes run a deficit if it's not completely sunny while underway. I'm sure you've run the numbers but you may want to leave yourself a healthy margin of error especially if you plan to run computers etc all the time. Don't forget to factor in stuff like windlass, charging camera batteries, cabin fans, etc. You may be surprised at the impacts of the cumulative loads of nav equipment, especially if it's at all cloudy or you plan to use an electric autopilot.

To be blunt relying heavily on a beefy electrical system is a mistake. At some point it will fail or at least have some glitches. There are way too many potential common weaknesses out of your control. Solar panel damage, computer damage (hardware or software), nearby lightning strike, mistakes with battery management, etc. You're far better off having a foundation of a solid boat with simple mechanical systems to handle all essential functions THEN layering some electrical stuff on top if you want. You're not talking about overnight passages here. Imagine what it's like to hand steer for weeks on end. Or to not have enough power to make water or download weather (two systems that are voltage sensitive). During shorthanded open ocean passages your autopilot is an "essential" system. To me that means it needs to be incredibly reliable, fixable, and have at least one backup. I strongly agree with the posts by Joliba and others who suggest using a wind vane as your primary pilot. You will save a lot of amps, especially if the seas are at all confused (which they will be) thus causing your electric pilot to work harder. Plus they're much quieter...

 

[p.gazibara]

P:
I'm curious, other than solar, how do you plan to generate electricity? With a circumnavigation of 3 years or so, you will likely encounter extended periods at anchor and at sea in overcast and rainy conditions. There are several alternatives and I wonder which ones you have chosen. Will you have refrigeration? A mechanical vane seems like a natural energy saver for one who plans not to motor for any long distance...when an electric autopilot is generally most desirable. I once used a homemade self steering windvane that worked flawlessly on our 30 foot boat. It doesn't need to be expensive.
M

I plan to have 700w of solar panels along with regen from my electric motor while under sail. Along the way I will try to get my hands on an inexpensive wind generator, but I am not too worried about it. I do plan to have refrigeration. If it becomes a large issue, I will break down and pick up a cheap little generator, but I *think* I can avoid it.