New mainsail catches on backstay

[ChrisS]

With the goal of doing some PHRF racing with my daughter, over the winter my 1975 E32-2 has gotten a bit of a makeover: new standing rigging, halyards run internally, a Garhauer rigid vang, a new Selden boom, Tides strong track on the mast, and a new main and jib, both Dacron. I also plan on upgrading the original mainsheet traveler. (I've had the boat for 11 years, and am committed to it for another 10.) Except for the sails, the other gear was original Ericson. Really getting excited for the upcoming season.

I got the new sails, and they are quite nice. However, the sailmaker built a main with a sort of elliptical shape, and the roach extends past the backstay about 4-5", beginning just below the second highest batten, and coming back inside of the backstay a little above the top one.

This means that the upper two battens catch on the backstay during a tack or gybe.

My initial impression was that the sailmaker didn't measure correctly, but looking at the design estimate (and in conversation with him) he definitely built me a sail with racing in mind, so I do not think it's a screw up. We didn't however, have a conversation about the extra roach.

Is it silly to have this design sail on a 70's era boat? Or will the better performance, whatever it may be, offset the hassle of having to deal with this catch up in light air? I'm also worried about chafe at the batten pockets. So, I'm wondering if I should be asking for a recut, or some other modification, or if I just sail it and see how it goes.

Thanks in advance for any insight.

 

[Christian Williams]

My opinion is that the sailmaker simply made an error. They know what a roach is, and although they'll build anything you want, I doubt this was the outcome intended, or recommended.

What's the sailmaker say?

 

[ChrisS]

Thanks for the reply. He says he added area to this part of the sail knowing that there would be some overlap, and that the overlap is common racing sail design to get more area up high. He claims that if had I spec'ed a cruising sail, the cut would be different. (To be honest, when he asked what I was going to be doing with the boat, I said "some racing.")

 

[Christian Williams]

A two-batten roach overlap on a 1975 cruising boat? Really? Did he recommend it? Did he explain it would hang up and snap every tack, forever? Is it on the written order for the sail?

I have to say that would drive me nuts, and I would make him change it on the grounds I never asked for it and was not informed of it.

But maybe that's me.

Sailmakers know more about sails than we do, and we pay them to guide us through the options.

 

[Phil MacFarlane]

The bigger the roach the better the performance. If you told your sail maker you wanted to race he did the right thing. I love a big overlapping ranch and I've won a ton of races. Yes its a pain in light air. If you want to race and win learn to deal with it. And yes the sail will get worn where it rubs on the back stay. Enjoy!

 

[Loren Beach]

A two-batten roach overlap on a 1975 cruising boat? Really? Did he recommend it? Did he explain it would hang up and snap every tack, forever? Is it on the written order for the sail?

I have to say that would drive me nuts, and I would make him change it on the grounds I never asked for it and was not informed of it.

But maybe that's me.

Sailmakers know more about sails than we do, and we pay them to guide us through the options.

Agree!
Given that the sailmaker decided to 'add' a bunch of roach, he needs to 'subtract' that roach.

Not to go all historic on this poor defenseless thread, but I recall crewing for a friend with a very light weight 28 footer in the early 80's who had just bought a new main with a Lot of overlap. In lighter airs we had to always snap it past the back stay. And then to compound the fun it had full battens and he had them tensioned up enough that the main would tack over, finally, in light air and have reverse camber. So we would grab the main sheet and pull it in and snap it back into the new tack side... until the shape popped over.

Opinion: while at the top levels nationally and internationally, extra bits of technology can make a difference (like having more roach than the other guy), for the rest of us in the 99.9% of local racers the largest determinant of finish position by a huge margin is how much time we spent going in the right direction and avoiding going in the wrong direction.
(Sermon / rant over )

Hope your discussion with the sailmaker goes well.

Regards,
Loren

 

[Frank Langer]

Only the top batten on our mainsail catches in light air, and I can live with that for the extra sail area and speed on our E30+. It really is an individual decision.
Frank

 

[Vagabond39]

Roach Overlap

ChrisS:
The technical term for the sailmaker's reply on the overlap is "CYA".
The acronym for "Cover You A--".
Bob

 

[tenders]

FWIW that would drive me nuts and I would expect the sailmaker to remove it. There's the sticking in light air, there's the battens with reverse camber after the tack, and then there's the chafe on the sail and battens. If you want roach in interesting places, put it on the genoa (with vertical battens).

 

[beachologist]

Lots of racing mains extend past the backstay. Keep the new main for racing and use the old one for cruising.

 

[e38 owner]

overlapping roach

A main cut to maximum phrf specs will have an overlapping roach.
Mine was cut that way with 1 full batten and 3 larger but not full battens.

Like everything with sails it is all about the intended use
In light air it can be a pita for two reasons. The full batten can invert and the leach can catch on the back stay. On my 38 the backstay goes to the very back of the boat as opposed to the end of the cockpit. Thus not quite as bad as it could be.

That being said you will get the hang of it. If you have a backstay adjuster a little more backstay helps.
pulling down on the sheet also helps.
Down wind jibes I will flip the backstay.


One thought off the top of my head to have the best of both worlds might be a reef point about a foot up the main. Thus in cruise mode the sail would not be fully hoisted and have like an older flatting reef. In race mode full hoist

Before we had our 38 we had a 32-2 and raced phrf. I would suggest that if you are in a light air venue every bit of sail area helps on a 32-2, a little roach may also help with pointing. If I remember the 32-2 reached great, but we had a hard pointing with some of the other boats in the fleet. PHRF is about boat speed as compared to your handicap. The extra roach wont make up for a bad tack or poor boat speed but if everything else is done well it helps a little

 

[Neil Gallagher]

Mainsail catches on back stay

My last boat was a Cal 31, I had Quantam come down measure the rig and told the sailmaker the intended use was to be cruising with some phf club racing. He suggested a main with extra roach. The top batten would hit the back stay. It was'nt an issue for me, sailed/raced the boat for a number of years and did not notice any extra wear issues on the top batten as it had extra reinforcement. What a difference a new set of sails make!

I'd say give it a whirl.

 

[Alan Gomes]

Maybe you could strike a compromise with your sail maker. Tell him you'll be willing to give the new sail with the extra roach a good test but if after a certain agreed upon time (3 or 4 months?) you find that it is driving you crazy then he'll take it back and recut it for you at no cost. That way, you could see whether you actually like it as originally cut, and he gets the *possibility* that you'll not require anything more of him.

 

[Rocinante33]

Or get a boom kicker and dump the backstay.

 

[Slick470]

mast bend...

As noted by others above, a lot of racing oriented main sails have extra roach and sometimes the battens can get hung up on the backstay during tacks in light air. On every boat I've raced on adding some mast bend with backstay tension, or babystay will help with this. If you don't already have a hydraulic backstay adjuster, I would seriously consider this as a useful upgrade.

Before having the sailmaker take the extra roach out, I'd ask them to come out with you for a sail. They can make recommendations on how to tune your rig and show you some tips and tricks to get the most out of your new sail. A lot of sailmakers will do a test sail with you as part of the price, so it doesn't hurt to ask.

 

[Loren Beach]

Communications

One caveat about bending -- some rigs can do this easier than others. On a classic 70's rig with double lowers it will be more difficult than it is on our Olson with single's. Note that our Kenyon spar does bend, about 6" give or take, but only at approx 1800# or more on the the hydraulic adjuster.
Our main was spec'd out with moderate draft so that reshaping the draft with mast bend is not much needed.

One facet of this situation that bothers me is an apparent lack of communication from the sail maker, in the interview and design phase. I guess I am spoiled by our experiences with the NW UKSail loft over the decades where they would commonly try to talk me out of notions that would not make our particular boat any better and just cost money and complexity.
Nowadays the owner of the PDX North Sails loft is cautious about assessing the real needs of his customers. He will design what you want, but goes over the benefits and drawbacks, first.

Then there's the argument used by so many vendors - brokers, sailmakers, etc. that "racing" is synonymous with sailing speed. Whether fairing the keel or fine turning the shape of the sails, or changing to lightweight fabric shrouds, you are just incrementally adding speed and pointing.

And like the problem with the leach catching on the backstay, there are practical drawbacks to what you do toward the end of the "added horsepower" spectrum. Remember, ALL boats become "race boats" when they enter a race and cross the starting line.

Having found a true dual-purpose design most of us with our Ericson's and Olson's just want to have gratifying performance for general sailing and cruising. Our boat is very easy to sail fast, and that's why we've kept it so long.

While there certainly are one-dimensional purpose-built racing sailboats, our boats are much much more than that.

Oops, slipped into sermon mode there, for a minute.

 

[Christian Williams]

Yes, we always want an edge in handicap racing. It gets personal fast, and the felt need for advantage is strong. "Boat speed" is the mantra. I myself have let children starve for yet another spinnaker.

But I believe now that, beyond the right sails and a clean hull, gear is mostly a psycho edge. One wrong tack toward the layline equals a $2000 hydraulic backstay adjuster.

One-design racing is a great illustrator.

In a Soling regatta of 30 boats in 20 knots in Annapolis, I got off to a good start and had clear air. From out inventory of 15 sails, we had selected the flattest of five mainsails and the newest Mylar jib. We were in about fourth place, romping to windward in three-foot seas, which make a Soling wet.

At the start, Buddy Melges had been fouled, which put him far behind.

To my horror, Melges suddenly appeared to leeward, five boats back.

In the next 20 minutes, he passed four other identical Solings, all equally equipped.

Then, to my amazement, he gradually closed the gap from leeward. He was going faster than we were, and he was outpointing us.

As the mark approached he took my wind and I had to tack away.

We finished about 10th. Melges won it.

All the boats were the same.

"Boat speed" is mostly skill. Money doesn't buy a level playing field. Skills can be improved for free.

 

[bgary]

Money doesn't buy a level playing field. Skills can be improved for free.

Well said.

I was amused, during that dark (and thankfully short) period when I thought golf was interesting, by the players who would hit a bad shot off the tee, grumble about it for the next three hours, and then go buy a new driver, thinking it was the old one's fault. spending those three hours analyzing a weakness and addressing it, and spending the money on the practice tee to "groove" the fix, would have had a far more direct and lasting effect on their game.

So it is in sailboat racing. Many people (especially in PHRF, but in top-level offshore and one-design as well) think they can "buy" their way to the front of the fleet. It doesn't work. Spending the time practicing <gasp!>, smoothing out maneuvers, streamlining the flow of information around the boat, improving the quality of tactical decisions and preparing the equipment so it is ready for race day.... *those* are the components of winning. You can't (reliably) win with crappy sails... but you can lose with with perfect ones. There's a lesson there.

I don't remember who said it, but one of my inspirational quotes from my racing days was

"a professional is someone who is dedicated to excellence. it has nothing to do with money."​

_/)_

 

[Slick470]

I completely agree that a backstay adjuster isn't necessary to be a successful racer and with anything else, going the wrong way, overstanding laylines, or a blown tack can have a bigger impact on the outcome of a race than the gear on the boat.

However, I consider it another useful tool to have like line adjustable jib leads, not necessary, but pretty nice if you have them. And yes, I fully recognize that they do add cost, complexity, and violate KISS.

Our boat is set up for racing, but we cruise and daysail our boat more than race it and I find the backstay adjuster (along with all the other race related sail controls I have) very helpful in de-powering our rig. We have small children and we try to take out friends who have never been sailing and a lot of times when the wind picks up, I will flatten out and board the main to keep things more comfortable. Plus, I don't want anyone spilling their wine (or juice) if I can help it.

I do like playing with all those controls, so maybe it's just me.

The larger point I was trying to make was to see if the sail maker will go out for a sail as they might have some tips and tricks to make use of that added roach, and make it less likely to snag on the backstay. Plus, that would also help the sail maker understand how much to take out of the sail if that is the decision.

 

[ChrisS]

Thanks for all the replies

Thanks for the insight, especially to those who have sailed with "extra roach." The sailmaker, in an e-mail conversation, tells me he'll cut it down if I like, but hopes I'll try it out for a while and see what I think. He also offered to go out for a sail, test it all out, and show me some ways to tack in light air. I'll give an update after I give it a go. Planning to do the "Round the Rocks" race ot the 15th.