Ericson 35 MKll spinnaker setup

[Scottc]

I am new to the Ericson 35 and love it by the way. I am trying to setup the sheets and guys for my boat to race short handed. Someone had mentioned that I should have two sets of sheets and guys for jybing. Has anyone done the setup this way?

Thanks,
Scott
E35MKll Ergo

 

[Morgan Stinemetz]

Racing shorthanded

I often raced with three on my E-27, and we did okay. But the very last time I raced the boat I had a crew of four on board. We were all good, how good I never dreamed of. In a reverse handicap race all the boats in my class were theoretically supposed to finished at exactly the same time. We all got our handicaps at the start of the race. After we finished, the second place boat in our class did not cross the line for 6:24. We had enough people to do everything right at exactly the right time. I think of all the lessons I learned in 30 years of sailing, this was the most cogent. It was the last race I ever did on my boat.

 

[Seth]

To answer the question....

On a boat of this size and unless you have a superstar on the bow, double sheets and guys are the only way to go. Obviously you will attach a sheet and a guy to each clew of the spinnaker (we are assuming a symmetrical spinnaker, right?). The guys should be led to a block on the outboard track at the widest part of the boat, a little aft (2-3') of the chainplates. Most folks use a sliding padeye on the track and attach a snatch block to the padeye. This of course is done on both sides. The guys should then lead directly one set of the cockpit winches. The sheets should be lead to a block at the aft corner of the boat (again, another sliding padeye near the back end of the outboard track and snatch block is simplest, but if you can step up to ratchet blocks for the sheets it is better), then lead the sheets to the other pair of winches in the cockpit. Whether you run the guys to the aft winches and the sheets fwd or vice versa is something you will need to experiment with and see what is easiest for you.

If sailing shorthanded, you NEED double sheets and guys. In light air you could get away with single sheets (only in lighter air) if you have a good crew.

Let me know if you need help with the mechanics of gybing a spinnaker single/shorthanded (you will need an autopilot if singlehanded). If you don't have 4 winches, we can come up with alternatives too, albeit less convenient.

If A-sail, let me know and I will give other ideas.

Cheers!
S

 

[Matey]

On a boat of this size and unless you have a superstar on the bow, double sheets and guys are the only way to go. Obviously you will attach a sheet and a guy to each clew of the spinnaker (we are assuming a symmetrical spinnaker, right?). The guys should be led to a block on the outboard track at the widest part of the boat, a little aft (2-3') of the chainplates. Most folks use a sliding padeye on the track and attach a snatch block to the padeye. This of course is done on both sides. The guys should then lead directly one set of the cockpit winches. The sheets should be lead to a block at the aft corner of the boat (again, another sliding padeye near the back end of the outboard track and snatch block is simplest, but if you can step up to ratchet blocks for the sheets it is better), then lead the sheets to the other pair of winches in the cockpit. Whether you run the guys to the aft winches and the sheets fwd or vice versa is something you will need to experiment with and see what is easiest for you.If sailing shorthanded, you NEED double sheets and guys. In light air you could get away with single sheets (only in lighter air) if you have a good crew.Let me know if you need help with the mechanics of gybing a spinnaker single/shorthanded (you will need an autopilot if singlehanded). If you don't have 4 winches, we can come up with alternatives too, albeit less convenient.If A-sail, let me know and I will give other ideas.Cheers!S

Scott,"What they said" .. We pretty much always run dbl sheets & guys and I have very good crew. In the winter I have gone singles but not often. I would buy new (light / strong / small) sheets and guys and just plan on it. No hawsers like mine pictured. My blocks for the guys are as Seth described at the wide point with snatch blocks, then straight to winch. It seems a much better angle and control of the guys. Sheets go aft to turning blocks and back forward to the winch. Get your pole re-built with spectra bridles & pull cords if it isn't, much easier dbl or solo. Make sure the ends work perfectly, I bought new ones. Having halyard, topping lift and foreguy very avail to you in cockpit is a must too. Singlehanded I only set or douse with the autopilot. Double Mike & I can pull it off and drive. Up to 15 or so the pilot steers deep about as well as me, to windward .. not. I deploy from a bag on the rail with tack pre-fed and douse into the companionway not the forward hatch. At about 20 knts I stow the chute unless we're sailing nearly dead down. It's a full size kite and my 32 spins out easily any hotter in a breeze. Tried it many times. Look forward to a rebuilt rudder to work thru that. I'll only share these shots it you guys ignore that pathetic main. Just talked to the sailmaker yesterday and will remedy that next.Good luck and see you at the "Three Bridge Fisaco" in a few weeksRegards, Greg

 

[Scottc]

Spinnaker setup

Thanks for the advice. I really appreciate it. This is my first big boat and am only used to the simple setup of a straight forward 30 footer. I have a learning curve and am looking forward to stretching my sailing abilities. I love my new boat. The spinnaker is a symetrical and there will be two of us as crew for this season of racing anyway. I was thinking that 5/16, 8mm would be a good size for the line. I found a sight on the internet that will calculate running rigging but they want 3/8, 10mm for spinnaker sheets and guys. http://shop.trailersailor.com/cordage/list2.htm?bid=1129

Thanks,
Scott
Ergo

 

[Seth]

sheets and guys

5/16" is perfect for the sheets, and you could probabaly go with 5/16" for both-certainly loads are no issue if you use high quality line Dyneema/Vectran/Spectra (not basic dacron). Many folks-step up one size for the guys, so you could use 3/8" on those, but I think this is more of a personal choice.

 

[Matey]

5/16" is perfect for the sheets, and you could probabaly go with 5/16" for both-certainly loads are no issue if you use high quality line Dyneema/Vectran/Spectra (not basic dacron). Many folks-step up one size for the guys, so you could use 3/8" on those, but I think this is more of a personal choice.

Scott,I agree, a good 5/16 for me. But I too would look at better lines as suggested, somewhere like APS . See what they recommend (super helpful on the phone) and then go talk to Easom, he'll price match them with a same or like item and you'll be set with time to spare before the 3BF. It will cost you some, but .. having low stretch lines with a good hand (feel) is so so nice and actually a safety item shorthanded in SF if you ask me. You'll want everything right flying that kite on the Bay. I'd spend the $ to get decent shackles spliced on as well. Mike at Easom does beautiful work on those. I've gone the cheap rout before on other boats and never again. Not for the events we're racing for surehttp://www.apsltd.com/c-1485-line.aspxRegards, Greg

 

[e38 owner]

I bought 5/16 high tech line with a cover.
I bought one red and one green
When it is blowing the 5/16 can be hard on the hands and the guy will not hold in the self tailers on the winch. However most of the time it is fine.
I found the center of each line and looped a continuous line through the shackle Slid on a stopper over both lines and whipped it. Both lines will fit in the outer end of the pole for the first set. We sail in light air alot so this was the lightest way I could think of.

It has worked well. In light air the weight of only one shackle is good.
I made the line long enough that I can set the chute from just about anywhere. Front hatch, Rail or bow, They are long enough that after a take down I can hook the shackes and halyard to pull around the boat if the take down was on the wrong side for the next set.

 

[Scottc]

Spinnaker setup

Thanks for the replies. I have ordered my sheets and guys from Easom Rigging. Went with the Samson XLS Extra T Blend 3/8 by the riggers suggestion with Tylaska snap shackles. Damn those things are expensive. Also replacing the foreguy for a continuous 5/16 line. What length do you all use? I will have it come back to the cockpit, not necessarilly back to the wheel area. Pretty much like you Greg. That looks like the standard way. Sure is nice to have other boats the same on my dock...

Scott
Ergo

 

[Loren Beach]

FWIW, if you are going to pay extra for lightweight snap shackles, why not go with Titanium?
We did that, about a decade ago, when a Seattle chandler was closing out some of them....
I recall paying about $35. each.

Keep watching for sales and at swap meets, too.

Also, there is a local discount chandler that has some on their shelf now, albeit not nearly that cheap.
http://www.columbiamarineexchange.com/

Regards,
Loren

 

[Doug177]

How high to mount Spinnaker Ring on 35-3, Track Placement

I am currently mounting a track for my Spinnaker Pole Ring.

I thought I would start with the eye about 21 inches above the deck so that I could angle the pole down and out of the way (basically on the foredeck up at the bow and slightly angled up to clear the vent roll bar) but still attached at the mast.

Then a long enough 12+ footish track would allow me to carry it in the locked and upright position on the front side of mast when not in use.

BUT the E35-3 brochure pic attached gives me great cause for concern. Did they just borrow a chute from a J-24 and have to fly it halfway up the mast or what?

Depending on the Spinnaker size I was thinking of having the sailing position of the ring and pole about opposite of the boom attachment perhaps a couple feet higher.

Doug

 

[Seth]

I am currently mounting a track for my Spinnaker Pole Ring.

I thought I would start with the eye about 21 inches above the deck so that I could angle the pole down and out of the way (basically on the foredeck up at the bow and slightly angled up to clear the vent roll bar) but still attached at the mast.

Then a long enough 12+ footish track would allow me to carry it in the locked and upright position on the front side of mast when not in use.

BUT the E35-3 brochure pic attached gives me great cause for concern. Did they just borrow a chute from a J-24 and have to fly it halfway up the mast or what?

Depending on the Spinnaker size I was thinking of having the sailing position of the ring and pole about opposite of the boom attachment perhaps a couple feet higher.

Doug

Doug, there is a bit to unpack here. If you want, feel free to contact me directly at sethtec@aol.com. phone:312-401-4974.

 

[p.gazibara]

Having multiple sheets/guys is a great idea for bigger winds, but what I have noticed is that when I'm flying the kite cruising (0-10kts) the weight of the sheets/guys will collapse the chute (especially when it is blowing less than about 5kts). I have a .5 oz and a .75 oz chute and both fall victim. I will normally use a single sheet on either side in this situation. It is more of a challenge to jybe, and a reaching strut is useful, but the chute stays open, and we keep sailing (usually with crew weight on the leeward side.

I also went out and picked up very light weight sheets that have been a HUGE help with this. I believe I bought 5/16" sheets as well, any smaller and they are quite a challenge to hold. I do not have self tailing winches, but I installed clam cleats just below the winches which make sheeting a big kite in light winds much much easier. (The only downside is a oblivious crewmember may accidently step on the sheet and pop it out of the cleat).

If I was trying to fly the chute in more wind racing, using separate guys would be a big help as it would be much easier to gybe (The windward guy can easily be made slack and easily clipped to the pole).

Ditto to the topping lift/foreguy, ideally you have them both run to clam cleats next to each other as they are both worked together easy.

Hope that helps! All of our boats have been rigged quite a bit differently over the years. I would recommend going out on a nice day with some friends and plenty of cold beverages and try things out. You will quickly see what needs to be made easier (you might even be tempted to get rid of the pole and put an asym in a sock or on one of those fancy furlers)

-P

 

[bgary]

A couple of recommendations from an ex foredeck-monkey....

Assuming a symmetric kite,
-- the sheets should attach to the sail
-- the afterguys should clip into the bails of the sheet snap-shackle
-- *don't* connect afterguys directly to the pole
By doing it this way (sheets on sail, guys on sheets) you can easily disconnect the "lazy" afterguy if it is dragging down the sheet, and the pole remains free to swing-through in gibes (because nothing but the topping lift and foreguy are connected directly to it).

As far as the pole position on the mast, it varies. In light air it will be lower than when the breeze is blowing and helping the kite lift. In all cases, though, the connection will generally be higher than the gooseneck for the boom. I'd expect the inboard end of the pole to be between 5 and 8 feet off the deck. You basically want to adjust the pole to be level, and at a height where the pole-side of the kite and the sheet-side of the kite are flying at the same height. There can be a lot of difference depending on conditions.

Having the lower end of the track low enough that you can have the pole in a "low ready" position as you described (pole attached to mast, and resting on foredeck at the bow) is nice to have.

I'd recommend *against* having the pole stored upright in front of the mast, though. I've seen too many injuries occur when the fitting at the inboard end of the pole lets go. Having the pole stored upright means that you'd be constantly depending on that fitting to hold the pole up, no matter what the conditions. You'd basically be betting that nobody will be around when that 16-foot-long aluminum pole decides to come down. Much better (IMHO) to store the pole on the deck, either in chocks or in Forespar brackets that mount on stanchions. Since whoever is working the bow will have to go forward anyway (to attach sheets to the sail, run the guy through the pole-end, etc.) it's no extra work to also put the butt-end of the pole on the mast, and storing it in chocks or brackets is a much more secure way to ensure it stays "stowed" when done.


$.02
Bruce

 

[Seth]

double sheets and guys

Having multiple sheets/guys is a great idea for bigger winds, but what I have noticed is that when I'm flying the kite cruising (0-10kts) the weight of the sheets/guys will collapse the chute (especially when it is blowing less than about 5kts). I have a .5 oz and a .75 oz chute and both fall victim. I will normally use a single sheet on either side in this situation. It is more of a challenge to jybe, and a reaching strut is useful, but the chute stays open, and we keep sailing (usually with crew weight on the leeward side.

I also went out and picked up very light weight sheets that have been a HUGE help with this. I believe I bought 5/16" sheets as well, any smaller and they are quite a challenge to hold. I do not have self tailing winches, but I installed clam cleats just below the winches which make sheeting a big kite in light winds much much easier. (The only downside is a oblivious crewmember may accidently step on the sheet and pop it out of the cleat).

If I was trying to fly the chute in more wind racing, using separate guys would be a big help as it would be much easier to gybe (The windward guy can easily be made slack and easily clipped to the pole).

Ditto to the topping lift/foreguy, ideally you have them both run to clam cleats next to each other as they are both worked together easy.

Hope that helps! All of our boats have been rigged quite a bit differently over the years. I would recommend going out on a nice day with some friends and plenty of cold beverages and try things out. You will quickly see what needs to be made easier (you might even be tempted to get rid of the pole and put an asym in a sock or on one of those fancy furlers)

-P

Having both sheets on the GUY side causes no problems even in the lightest air, since the guy is run through the end of a pole. MOST folks disconnect the lazy guy from the sail in light air, so you only have the weight of the sheet to contend with. Anything heavier than 5/16 isn't buying you anything on a boat this size. This assumes each sheet ad guy has it's own shackle. When it gets REALLY light, regardless of how your sheets and guys are set up, most folks just disconnect the sheet and/or guy and run a 3/16" or 1/4" light air sheet tied onto the sail to avoid the weight of a shackle. When you need to gybe, reconnect the sheets and guys and remove the light air sheet, gybe, and repeat on the other side.

 

[MarineCityBrian]

Ericson 35 Primary/Secondary Winch Setup

Doug, there is a bit to unpack here. If you want, feel free to contact me directly at sethtec@aol.com. phone:312-401-4974.

I, too, am trying to run my spinnaker setup, but on my 35-3. I was planning on running with enough mast track to afford vertical storage of the pole to keep it off the deck and not have it clamped to the life lines (and not have to remove it from any storage location to clip it to the mast, merely lower it for use). That said, I'm trying to figure out the 35-3's winch setup. Presently I only have primaries, and in the picture I found on the site of the 35-3's deck layout, it shows the primaries AFT of the secondaries, whereas I've typically known them to be forward, since the secondaries run the sheets and the primaries run the guys. Are they intended to criss-cross? I've presently got Barient 27STs in the primary position and recently purchased a pair of 23STs for my secondaries, but was curious if anyone reversed their locations for their 35-3 (though it doesn't appear as though there's enough space on the cockpit rail for this)?
There certainly doesn't appear to be enough width of the cockpit rail to mount them aft of the primaries, and the rail at the primaries actually 'wows' both inboard and outboard to accommodate the diameter of the primaries.
Thanks in advance for the help - LOVE this forum!!!!

 

[Seth]

E35-3 Spinnaker setup

Well,
Are you racing with any seriousness? If so, storing the pole vertically has some negatives:
More weight higher than the deck will reduce stability and also worsen rolling motion in a seaway.
It is also something the Genoa can snag on during tacks. If you mainly cruise and have a dacron furling headsail, not a big deal. If you race, you will likely have an expensive composite headsail, and tack much more often, increase chafe and potential for a snag.
Depending on how your halyards are led and controlled, I would probably put the secondaries on the aft end if the cabin top, and take the spin sheets from the stern block to another block on the toe rail somewhere fwd of the primaries so it gives a good lead to the cabin top. Having the
sheets fwd like this makes the cockpit cleaner during gybes, and keeps trimmers out if the cockpit, which makes a HUGE difference in speed in light to moderate air. Any more than 3 folks including the driver back there for any period is SLOW.
Keep the spin trimmer outside the cockpit is FAST. You might even replace the halyard winches (assuming all is led aft) with your new secondaries and use them for everything. That would be ideal. The answer depends on the kind of sailing you do, and there are in-between solutions too.
Feel free to call and chat.
Sail safe

 

[MarineCityBrian]

Well,
Are you racing with any seriousness? If so, storing the pole vertically has some negatives:
More weight higher than the deck will reduce stability and also worsen rolling motion in a seaway.
It is also something the Genoa can snag on during tacks. If you mainly cruise and have a dacron furling headsail, not a big deal. If you race, you will likely have an expensive composite headsail, and tack much more often, increase chafe and potential for a snag.
Depending on how your halyards are led and controlled, I would probably put the secondaries on the aft end if the cabin top, and take the spin sheets from the stern block to another block on the toe rail somewhere fwd of the primaries so it gives a good lead to the cabin top. Having the
sheets fwd like this makes the cockpit cleaner during gybes, and keeps trimmers out if the cockpit, which makes a HUGE difference in speed in light to moderate air. Any more than 3 folks including the driver back there for any period is SLOW.
Keep the spin trimmer outside the cockpit is FAST. You might even replace the halyard winches (assuming all is led aft) with your new secondaries and use them for everything. That would be ideal. The answer depends on the kind of sailing you do, and there are in-between solutions too.
Feel free to call and chat.
Sail safe

Seth - your sage advice is very much appreciated and now has caused me to do considerably more pondering. Firstly, let me answer some of your questions:
-Presently I'm primarily cruising, but I have aspirations to race at some future point (~3-5 years). We're presently just enjoying the boat as a family cruiser and I've worked to get all important lines aft. Proposed setup is as follows, and I actually already have the old main sheet winch acting as a halyard/rope clutch winch on the starboard side, and am installing a new winch to replace the main sheet winch in an area most seem to have it when the boat came from the factory with aft-led lines (right up next to the hand rail on the starboard cabin top). I have all lines on the port side run with the exception of the downhaul (still need to get the padeye and fairlead(s), and am pondering their locations as well). The starboard deck organizer was installed and original cheek block holes for the mainsheet filled-in, but a moist core in the aft area of the starboard cabin top prevented me from mounting any of the other hardware (new mainsheet winch & rope clutches):


-I did not immediately think of the additional weight high (worsening rolling motion in a seaway). As for tacking with a fancy sail (we presently have no sails that any legitimate racer would consider fancy... ) I'm thinking the nice rounded spar may be about even with the mostly bare T-Track and spinnaker pole car in terms of chafe and snag potential, but I suppose it all depends on the shape/hardware on the pole, and likewise on the mast. My initial thought was convenience, and thinking that the entire pole should weigh-in around 30 lbs if my calculations are correct based on my pole-end mass added to the lbs/ft of tubing I calculated. Still, 30 lbs evenly distributed up the first 1/3 of the mast height is not insignificant, and definitely something I'm pondering in terms of drawbacks. In further study the mast-mounted pole seems to be more of a cruiser thing than a racer thing... I was also pondering flying the chute with a fairly sparse crew for cruising and thinking the mast-stored pole may be easier to deploy shorthanded

-I love the idea of putting the secondaries on the cabin top and running them as my halyard winches as well as the secondaries. I'll need to stop by the boat to make sure the angles work-out for criss-crossing the lines (since the primaries will be heading underneath to the cars at the beamiest point on the boat to run the guys, and the secondaries will be running above these to the blocks as far aft on the rail T-Track as is feasible to run the sheets). Your idea of running another block on the toe-rail may be necessary with this setup given the potential criss-cross, but I'll lay it out on the boat soon enough and get back to you.

Thanks so much for the offer to call and chat - I will very likely take you up on this.

Thanks once again, and happy sailing!

 

[Seth]

SPinny set up

The layout works. I helped a local 35-2 Providence redo their deck layout this way-they were upgrading the boat to stay competitive in the Mac race (which they are 1st, 2nd or 3rd in every year!). The new layout saved weight, simplified the overall arrangement, and kept bodies out of the cockpit, which is a MUST unless you are broad reaching/running in 18+ knots. Invest in the bigger rudder-you won't believe how much faster and more controllable the boat is. Lot's of posts here on that subject. Cheers

Seth - your sage advice is very much appreciated and now has caused me to do considerably more pondering. Firstly, let me answer some of your questions:
-Presently I'm primarily cruising, but I have aspirations to race at some future point (~3-5 years). We're presently just enjoying the boat as a family cruiser and I've worked to get all important lines aft. Proposed setup is as follows, and I actually already have the old main sheet winch acting as a halyard/rope clutch winch on the starboard side, and am installing a new winch to replace the main sheet winch in an area most seem to have it when the boat came from the factory with aft-led lines (right up next to the hand rail on the starboard cabin top). I have all lines on the port side run with the exception of the downhaul (still need to get the padeye and fairlead(s), and am pondering their locations as well). The starboard deck organizer was installed and original cheek block holes for the mainsheet filled-in, but a moist core in the aft area of the starboard cabin top prevented me from mounting any of the other hardware (new mainsheet winch & rope clutches):
View attachment 23589

-I did not immediately think of the additional weight high (worsening rolling motion in a seaway). As for tacking with a fancy sail (we presently have no sails that any legitimate racer would consider fancy... ) I'm thinking the nice rounded spar may be about even with the mostly bare T-Track and spinnaker pole car in terms of chafe and snag potential, but I suppose it all depends on the shape/hardware on the pole, and likewise on the mast. My initial thought was convenience, and thinking that the entire pole should weigh-in around 30 lbs if my calculations are correct based on my pole-end mass added to the lbs/ft of tubing I calculated. Still, 30 lbs evenly distributed up the first 1/3 of the mast height is not insignificant, and definitely something I'm pondering in terms of drawbacks. In further study the mast-mounted pole seems to be more of a cruiser thing than a racer thing... I was also pondering flying the chute with a fairly sparse crew for cruising and thinking the mast-stored pole may be easier to deploy shorthanded

-I love the idea of putting the secondaries on the cabin top and running them as my halyard winches as well as the secondaries. I'll need to stop by the boat to make sure the angles work-out for criss-crossing the lines (since the primaries will be heading underneath to the cars at the beamiest point on the boat to run the guys, and the secondaries will be running above these to the blocks as far aft on the rail T-Track as is feasible to run the sheets). Your idea of running another block on the toe-rail may be necessary with this setup given the potential criss-cross, but I'll lay it out on the boat soon enough and get back to you.

Thanks so much for the offer to call and chat - I will very likely take you up on this.

Thanks once again, and happy sailing!

 

[MarineCityBrian]

The layout works. I helped a local 35-2 Providence redo their deck layout this way-they were upgrading the boat to stay competitive in the Mac race (which they are 1st, 2nd or 3rd in every year!). The new layout saved weight, simplified the overall arrangement, and kept bodies out of the cockpit, which is a MUST unless you are broad reaching/running in 18+ knots. Invest in the bigger rudder-you won't believe how much faster and more controllable the boat is. Lot's of posts here on that subject. Cheers

I've actually got the 35-3, which I thought had a reasonably appropriate sized rudder (though I had heard the 35-2's rudder was a bit small and Foss Foams had a better shape/size on-hand for it). If for the E35-3, though, I'd be interested, but admittedly that upgrade may be a bit later in the budget...

In examining my setup, it DOES look like I could replace my existing halyward winches with these Barient 23s and have a servicable secondary winch system to run the sheets. My only worry is that the port winch presently also assists the topping lift if needed, so I'd be S.O.L. if in a heavy breeze and needed extra tug on that. Poor thinking on my part I suppose since while the pole is on the starboard side you'd be using the port secondary to run the sheet.....may need to swap a line from one side of the mast to the other. I presently have vang and cunningham running aft on the starboard side to the mainsheet trim station, but I suppose my foredeck guy could take responsibility for one of those (my initial thought would be cunningham) and send the topping lift over to the starboard side where the lazy sheet would be while the pole is on the starboard side. Or, maybe I'm crazy and doing a dip-pole (I'm admittedly only skilled in the end-for-end jibe, but understand the dip-pole in theory and understand this to be the only way to go on my boat) with the topping lift won't require any more than 1:1. Again - thanks so much for the feedback. More pondering and thinking this through I'm sure will yield a better system!