Factory original bilge pumps in 32-3

[william.haas]

Yeah, that seems to be one of the first things many people change.

The other thing to consider about the shower sump is whether to have it connected to the other bilges (via limber holes), or isolated.

My shower sump originally had a limber hole at the very bottom, so an inch of water in this sump meant an inch of water across the whole boat, including in the inaccessible areas below the TAGF. I sealed off that lower limber hole and added a limber hole higher, at the same height as a PVC conduits. Now I can trap and pump water from the shower sump without getting ANY water in the rest of the boats--a huge improvement.

If you isolate this bilge, it becomes pretty small--I think mine holds about 96 oz (before overflowing to the limber hole). This can cause a problem with the centrifugal type pumps that backflow when they stop. The back flowing water refills the bilge about 1/2 way, and can cause the old, mechanical float switches to cycle repeatedly. I avoided this by installing an electric float switch which keeps pumping for 15 seconds after the float bottoms out. This would also be a good application for a diaphragm pump, which doesn't have the backflow issue.

This has turned into one of the more interesting threads of recent memory (or maybe us with our boats on the hard in cold climates need Spring to arrive). With a deck stepped mast on the 28 the improvements and modifications are clearly quite different.

I have always appreciated that my shower bilge is completely isolated from the rest of the boat keeping all the oils, skin, soaps, hair, etc. from showers getting elsewhere into the depths of the boat. Gross yes, and that’s exactly why I like keeping it isolated. Having a diaphragm pump I have not had the backfill issue but I do like your solution.

 

[william.haas]

This works well too. And not just for the bilge. https://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B08HYGKS4M/ref=ppx_yo_dt_b_search_asin_title?ie=UTF8&psc=1

When winterizing since it is on hand I use my oil extractor and the very thin hose to remove water from inside all the limber holes where it can settle in odd spaces when on the hard and the boat is balanced differently. This solution, like Loren’s Turkey baster, could live on board year round.

 

[peaman]

I use my oil extractor

I discovered a 1 gallon capacity non-electric oil extractor only a few months ago and have found it really useful for this to prevent any chance of ice in the bilges. Besides its intended use for oil and trans fluid changes.

 

[william.haas]

I discovered a 1 gallon capacity non-electric oil extractor only a few months ago and have found it really useful for this to prevent any chance of ice in the bilges. Besides its intended use for oil and trans fluid changes.

Basically the same that I use... mine is just the WM branded one.

 

[Loren Beach]

There has been some discussion on centrifugal pumps and their advantages and disadvantages.
***I had a good chat with a 20 year veteran of the company yesterday at the Seattle show. Xylem does indeed own Jabsco and Rule, and the operation at Jabsco has been left in place and their QC has not degraded.

The Rule pumps do have inherent problems when used in all boats with long discharge runs where any small sags in the hose can cause air locks. (In hose routing for a 3/4" hose, a sag or 3 or 4 places is almost inevitable, in a 15 foot plus hose run.)
Rule has added small "joker valves" in the output side of some of their pumps, and these are easily removable/changeable. I looked at one. Their float switches have been thru several major re-designs, and the current generation is considered a lot more durable, after some previous wire chafe/internal connection problems.

And, as suspected, the centrifugal pumps work a lot better with a short discharge hose run, like in the 90 % market where these are in smaller power boats, ski & fishing. There is even, now, a small pin hole in some of the smaller ones to let excess air bleed out, if I understood that properly.
And, now they also offer a newer pump that's mounted very low/flatter and does utilize a diaphragm mechanism. It's better than the older designs, but does need some horizontal bilge room. I believe that it costs more, also.
The gentleman was quite candid, compared to some encounters in the past.

***These are not exact quotes and not intended to be, and are based on my recollection.

Nothing here that will change anyone's preconceived notions, but it does speak to sailboaters being a niche market for Rule, and a small niche at that.

 

[bsangs]

There has been some discussion on centrifugal pumps and their advantages and disadvantages.
***I had a good chat with a 20 year veteran of the company yesterday at the Seattle show. Xylem does indeed own Jabsco and Rule, and the operation at Jabsco has been left in place and their QC has not degraded.

The Rule pumps do have inherent problems when used in all boats with long discharge runs where any small sags in the hose can cause air locks. (In hose routing for a 3/4" hose, a sag or 3 or 4 places is almost inevitable, in a 15 foot plus hose run.)
Rule has added small "joker valves" in the output side of some of their pumps, and these are easily removable/changeable. I looked at one. Their float switches have been thru several major re-designs, and the current generation is considered a lot more durable, after some previous wire chafe/internal connection problems.

And, as suspected, the centrifugal pumps work a lot better with a short discharge hose run, like in the 90 % market where these are in smaller power boats, ski & fishing. There is even, now, a small pin hole in some of the smaller ones to let excess air bleed out, if I understood that properly.
And, now they also offer a newer pump that's mounted very low/flatter and does utilize a diaphragm mechanism. It's better than the older designs, but does need some horizontal bilge room. I believe that it costs more, also.
The gentleman was quite candid, compared to some encounters in the past.

***These are not exact quotes and not intended to be, and are based on my recollection.

Nothing here that will change anyone's preconceived notions, but it does speak to sailboaters being a niche market for Rule, and a small niche at that.

Very interesting Loren. Were you discussing the models such as this one? If so, I have not experienced any air locks, and I'm not sure it has a joker valve. It's been a very solid performer. (Knock wood).

 

[Loren Beach]

Were you discussing the models such as this one? If so, I have not experienced any air locks, and I'm not sure it has a joker valve. It's been a very solid performer. (Knock wood).

Not sure how to answer that. I got the impression that they have some newer designs in their main (centrifugal) line, and that some older ones might be phasing out.
The whole "air lock" problem seems to really get back to (seemingly innocuous) small sags in the long discharge hose runs on larger boats (like most of ours...)

Also, even their brochure for their new bilge model does not use the words "check valve". I suspect that no one at Rule admits to any possible design fault in their profitable centrifugal line of pumps. Like I said before, our larger boats are really a minor niche market for them.

 

[bsangs]

Not sure how to answer that. I got the impression that they have some newer designs in their main (centrifugal) line, and that some older ones might be phasing out.
The whole "air lock" problem seems to really get back to (seemingly innocuous) small sags in the long discharge hose runs on larger boats (like most of ours...)

Also, even their brochure for their new bilge model does not use the words "check valve". I suspect that no one at Rule admits to any possible design fault in their profitable centrifugal line of pumps. Like I said before, our larger boats are really a minor niche market for them.

Interesting. Well, it's what I have and the system works. I bought a couple extras before they're no longer available. I'm OK with being niche.

On my 35-3, this sits in the fourth of sixth bilge chambers, from fore to aft. (I'm including the small area located under the dustbin as a chamber in this description.) It's located in the chamber behind the two mast chambers, and is wired directly to the battery with an in-line fuse, and a separate On/Off switch located in the battery area, which I always keep "On." There is a float switch and a high water alarm also in that chamber.

All six chambers are "connected" via limber holes. The manual pump is located in the fifth chamber, and that has a check valve, as the hose T's into the hose coming from the centrifugal pump. The hose rises and is zip tied to the bulkhead, and doesn't sag in any area where I can see it. The shower will drain into the smallest forward chamber and depending on the volume, will reach the bilge pump chamber. Most times the water is universally fresh - coming mainly from the mast - except for the few times it gets salty after a sail, due to a rudder post I need to hopefully just grease.

The previous owner set it up this way. He left the two diaphragm pumps bolted to the wall in the engine room, but removed the hoses. Didn't like them as bilge pumps, but he kept them around in case he needed a pump in a pinch, so I'm keeping them there too. If this system does ever go haywire for me, guess I'll look into the diaphragm pump solution. Thanks for the info.

 

[Kenneth K]

...... In hose routing for a 3/4" hose, a sag or 3 or 4 places is almost inevitable, in a 15 foot plus hose run.

....... (seemingly innocuous) small sags in the long discharge hose runs on larger boats (like most of ours...)

Loren, I really don't think this argument, in many cases, ahem, holds water.

A simple way to prevent sagging in bilge hoses is to run them directly along the smooth, graceful, curved lines of the hull, which, in many boats, is exactly what Ericson did. Where they traverse the cut-up bilge areas of the TAFG, the hoses are supported in conduits. This explains that it was by design, and not just dumb luck that I don't get airlocks in my (32-3) centrifugal pump and hose setup, and why Ericson shipped 32-3s from the factory with such pumps. Many other Ericson models share similar construction.

It also explains why other models, where the hoses don't lie flatly against the hull, will repeatedly airlock with these pumps. Specifically, in the 32-200 (and, apparently the O-34 as well), Ericson chose to have the hoses rise up in the engine compartment to facilitate the mounting of diaphragm pumps. I assume the hoses then drop back down to the hull before they exit the boat. Here, the large rise-and-fall built in to the hose layout by the manufacture means that these boats cannot effectively be retrofitted with a centrifugal pump....it's just not gonna work. The built in "hump" is going to cause an airlock.

This latter case sounds like what you experienced with your Rules--a failed attempt at retrofitting a boat (with hoses laid out for diaphragm pumps) with centrifugals. While your experience is quite useful information, an understanding of why is much more important. When an erudite, experienced, and admired moderator such as yourself casts doubts about a product, people listen. EF Hutton had the same problem. The important thing, I think, is that readers should be aware that that the particular problem you encountered in your O34 may or may not apply to their boat.

I, for one, can claim that the air-lock issue is not a problem in my 32-3 with the factory hose layout.

The backflow problem is another issue, which can't really be avoided in the "old" pumps. This in itself may be enough to make some people look elsewhere for pumps.

BTW, the "new" pumps with the joker valve have the extended looking "snout" where the "old" pumps had a standard barb fitting outlet. The snout screws off to reveal the joker valve.

 

[Nick J]

All six chambers are "connected" via limber holes. The manual pump is located in the fifth chamber, and that has a check valve, as the hose T's into the hose coming from the centrifugal pump. The hose rises and is zip tied to the bulkhead, and doesn't sag in any area where I can see it. The shower will drain into the smallest forward chamber and depending on the volume, will reach the bilge pump chamber.

Does this mean your main centrifugal bilge pump is pumping through the manual bilge pump in the cockpit and the original 5/8" hose is not being used?

 

[Loren Beach]

It also explains why other models, where the hoses don't lie flatly against the hull, will repeatedly airlock with these pumps. Specifically, in the 32-200 (and, apparently the O-34 as well), Ericson chose to have the hoses rise up in the engine compartment to facilitate the mounting of diaphragm pumps. I assume the hoses then drop back down to the hull before they exit the boat. Here, the large rise-and-fall built in to the hose layout by the manufacture means that these boats cannot effectively be retrofitted with a centrifugal pump....it's just not gonna work. The built in "hump" is going to cause an airlock.

Actually.... when I was replacing all of the OEM hoses, I did try to figure out how to "straighten out" the routing. I could find Rube Goldberg ways to reach into tight areas and attach them "mostly" at the same level, but not completely. FWIW I have visited (if that's the word) the stern sections of a 32-3, a 38-200, and a 33RH Ericson with the grid system all the way aft. My recall is that once out of the main bilges those hoses are exposed and can easily have the little sags that are common in our design. I even contemplated trying to route part of the bilge system with solid pvc piping, but there was no practical way to put 10 or 12 feet of piping in without doing it in sections with a lot of couplings in almost-closed compartments.
To plead my case further, Your Honor, I did spend a Lot of time inside down in all of the aft parts of our boat trying to upgrade from the OEM hose routing.
With the check-valve type of Jabsco pumps it is a moot point... There will be water trapped in those runs forward of the high loops inside of the lazaretto, anyway. That said, you do want to make the discharge as smooth as possible.

Different Topic, sort of: anyone who has a big ol' Ericson with about $600, worth of a pair of Jabsco pumps (!!) should really keep those in good operational order. EY installed those spendy pumps, and they are a major bonus compared to all of the cheap-a_s boats with little or nothing, when new, to dewater their bilges.

 

[bsangs]

Does this mean your main centrifugal bilge pump is pumping through the manual bilge pump in the cockpit and the original 5/8" hose is not being used?

There is a Y valve in the cockpit lazaret with a diverter switch. Turn it one way for the manual pump, and the other for the electric. Is it the original hose? That I cannot say for certain. Keep in mind, this is all still relatively new to me, as we just purchased the boat last May.

 

[bsangs]

Different Topic, sort of: anyone who has a big ol' Ericson with about $600, worth of a pair of Jabsco pumps (!!) should really keep those in good operational order. EY installed those spendy pumps, and they are a major bonus compared to all of the cheap-a_s boats with little or nothing, when new, to dewater their bilges.

Duly noted!

 

[Kenneth K]

FWIW I have visited (if that's the word) the stern sections of a 32-3, and a 33RH Ericson with the grid system all the way aft. My recall is that once out of the main bilges those hoses are exposed and can easily have the little sags that are common in our design. I even contemplated trying to route part of the bilge system with solid pvc piping, but there was no practical way to put 10 or 12 feet of piping in without do

Admittedly, it's always difficult to generalize across a number of boats. Some earlier posts here described the differences between even '85, '87, and '89 model 32-3s. It's also difficult for any of us "non-original" owners to know what the "factory" configuration of our boats looked like.

Nonetheless, post #11, I shows (the yellow circle) how the two bilge hoses in the 32-3 run under the TAFG (in direct contact with the hull) aft of the engine compartment. The hoses do not rise above the TAFG (lose contact with the hull) until they exit at the stern (second picture in post #42). YMMV.

It's one of the reasons I've found it difficult to mount diaphragm pumps in the 32-3--the bilge hoses are buried/hidden everywhere except for the far stern. Apparently, member Bolo was successful in mounting his replacement pumps there.

 

[Loren Beach]

Good Point, Ken.
The TAFG is likely different in each model. Maybe more different than I have guessed.

I can imagine our time together at the big Rendezvous:
Late in the evening of the first day... the other owners will recall that first we were observed visiting back n forth and there was waving of hands and raised voices. Then they heard the pop of wine corks. Then later there was hearty laughter, and then things got really quiet... and then they heard snoring....

 

[Nick J]

There is a Y valve in the cockpit lazaret with a diverter switch. Turn it one way for the manual pump, and the other for the electric. Is it the original hose? That I cannot say for certain. Keep in mind, this is all still relatively new to me, as we just purchased the boat last May.

That's an interesting configuration. I was thinking about keeping my Rule 1500 as a backup and plumbing it into the manual bilge pump hose, but I couldn't figure out a way to bypass the manual pump without using multiple Y valves. Any chance you could post some pics next time your on board?

 

[Kenneth K]

Then later there was hearty laughter, and then things got really quiet... and then they heard snoring....

...interrupted only by the annoying sound of someone's silly little bilge pump cycling every two-and-a-half minutes....all night long...

 

[bsangs]

That's an interesting configuration. I was thinking about keeping my Rule 1500 as a backup and plumbing it into the manual bilge pump hose, but I couldn't figure out a way to bypass the manual pump without using multiple Y valves. Any chance you could post some pics next time your on board?

Will do. I'll put it in my "Boat Notes." Probably won't be until next week though, when I bring my winches back, after having cleaned them at home.

 

[Christian Williams]

The manual pump is located in the fifth chamber, and that has a check valve, as the hose T's into the hose coming from the centrifugal pump.

I noticed this too. Ericson put big manual diaphragm pumps in many models--for emergencies. The hose is something like 1.5 inches. Since they move a lot of water they need a dedicated hose of adequate diameter to live up to the role. What manual pump came on your boat?.

 

[Bolo]

Finally got to the boat to work on electronics up grade. Photographed my two diaphragm pumps in the aft compartment. Been very happy with this set up.