Big Problem while sailing yesterday [Main Halyard]

[Frank Langer]

I had a great sail underway yesterday in 16 knot winds, boat going 6.8 knots, heeled about 20 degrees. All of a sudden the mainsail began to drop, and I noticed the professionally done splice attaching the halyard to shackle to head of the sail had let go, halyard broken. I was able to get the sail flaked and got back to dock safely with headsail.
Today I went up the mast tower at our yacht club to see if I could spot a loose end of halyard but the openings at the mast head are tiny, no halyard visible.
I threaded a 50' electric fishtape through an opening for another halyard to the mast to (not easy, lots of twisting, push/pull) and was able to thread a 3/16" messenger line up the mast, around the sheave for the mainsail, and back to deck level, to allow me to install a new halyard.
I then pulled on the old broken halyard, expecting it to come freely down the mast and out the exit fitting. Unfortunately most of it came ok but the last bit, not sure how much, got stuck and won't move. I tried with the fishtape to move the old halyard up the mast to free it, but that didn't work.
So my problem is an end of the old halyard stuck part way up the mast, with no way to see what is causing that. The mast is deck stepped (1984 E30+).
If anyone has any ideas on how to get the old halyard unstuck and out, I'd really appreciate it!!
Boating should be fun, but these episodes are not.
Frank

 

[Dave G.]

That sucks ! Is it stuck in the exit plate or on something farther up in the mast? That professionally done splice may be the culprit. If it's hung up on the exit plate opening due to size of the line at the splice you could remove the plate which you may have to do anyway. If it's farther up the mast it's probably wedged between another halyard and the mast wall. Try loosening everything else to see if it will pull loose, you may have to move the other lines both directions if it's wedged to get it free. Last resort would be to cut it off and hopefully it falls down below any possible interference. I have replaced all my halyards by connecting the new line to the old and pulling them in from the working end. Never tried to pull a eye splice through the mast though. I then tie halyard knots to the shackle which has also alleviated some problems the splices were causing in the sheaves. Good luck Frank and let us know how it goes.

 

[Christian Williams]

Ugh. If you had the splice made locally I'd talk to them for "advice."

The shackle probably fell off. If it did, I might apply winch force to the jammed line. Probably (?) the fat remains of splice are just hung up, and I don't immediately see why fairly strong force would damage anything. But maybe someone will warn against that plan.

I've never seen a mast tower. Great idea.

 

[Frank Langer]

Thanks for your replies so far. For clarification, the splice pulled apart, leaving just the outside sheath of the line, core missing, but the shackle was still attached to that short 6" splice and to the head of the sail so I still have the shackle. So now the halyard is just the line, with a frayed end and no loop, shackle or other obstructing piece to get caught. I thought it would just come out of the halyard exit when I pulled on it, and most of the halyard did come out, but it's the last few feet that have stopped. The exit plate is not the problem, it's somewhere between that and maybe the lower spreader (there are two spreaders) where it's hung up. I did try several times to use the electrical fishtape which I taped to the halyard where it exits the mast and tried to move it back up the mast, but that didn't work to free it. The next step is to try to move both the headsail halyard and the spinnaker halyard to see if they are running free or if one of them might have wedged the stuck halyard. I'm a little worried that I might damage wiring in the mast by working these lines and pulling on the stuck halyard--the anchor light, steaming and bow light, anemometer wire, radio antenna wire.
If that all doesn't work, I think the only thing left is to get a boatyard to pull the mast and try to get at the stuck halyard from the bottom end of the mast, but that would be expensive, time comsuming and I'm not even sure what tool one could use to reach the stuck point if it's 15 fee or so inside the mast.
I have considered cutting the halyard at the exit plate and pushing it inside the mast, but I'm worried that it may over time obstruct something in there--other halyards or wires--and cause problems, so I'd rather get it out.
Christian, the splice was done many years ago before I bought the boat, so I can't go back to where that splice was done. I thought that splices were stronger than knots and would essentially last forever as long as the rope was still good, but this one was obviously faulty in some way.
I would really appreciate any other thoughts of ideas.
Frank

 

[Gaviate]

I'm a little worried that I might damage wiring

I think due caution is in order here. Probable that all of line piled on itself inside the mast, when it cleared top sheave at beginning of pull but could have just as easily fell between something. I would use an "inspecto-scope" camera to get a look inside and see what's happening. Plumbers use them all the time to look into pipes and drains, I use mine to check interior of wall cavities before demolition work. The only issue here is getting the scope inside the mast. Maybe clear another halyard sheave with messenger line and slip in that way. My scope is about same diameter as line so should fit through sheave. Once you can see then an informed decision is available, i.e. brute force or pull the mast. Flexible scope cameras are found at auto parts stores, or Harbor Freight, or buy your plumber a beer!

 

[Loren Beach]

If that 30+ rig is a Kenyon like our boat, there are solid bars thru the spar at each spreader point. While a falling halyard could slide past on its way to piling up at the inside base of the spar, a loop could get caught by its mass and friction at a spreader point.
When I "sky-ed" a halyard a few years ago luck was with me and the line was retrievable thru a halyard exit plate. I like the idea of using a modern camera inspection device to look inside. You may need to remove some exit plates temporarily to get better access. I wish you much luck. I hope that the spar does not have to be pulled.

 

[bigd14]

Oh that’s a bummer, Frank.
Almost all the wiring should be protected in the aft track except where the steaming light wire exits and runs across to the forward edge of the mast. I like the scope approach to see if any snags or knots can be identified. I might first try to apply light pressure with a winch to try to break something loose although you might end up sacrificing the steaming light wiring. Best of luck getting the halyard free.

And yeah the mast tower sounds like an interesting structure. Do you have any photos of it?

 

[Frank Langer]

Thanks for your replies so far. For clarification, the splice pulled apart, leaving just the outside sheath of the line, core missing, but the shackle was still attached to that short 6" splice and to the head of the sail so I still have the shackle. So now the halyard is just the line, with a frayed end and no loop, shackle or other obstructing piece to get caught. I thought it would just come out of the halyard exit when I pulled on it, and most of the halyard did come out, but it's the last few feet that have stopped. The exit plate is not the problem, it's somewhere between that and maybe the lower spreader (there are two spreaders) where it's hung up. I did try several times to use the electrical fishtape which I taped to the halyard where it exits the mast and tried to move it back up the mast, but that didn't work to free it. The next step is to try to move both the headsail halyard and the spinnaker halyard to see if they are running free or if one of them might have wedged the stuck halyard. I'm a little worried that I might damage wiring in the mast by working these lines and pulling on the stuck halyard--the anchor light, steaming and bow light, anemometer wire, radio antenna wire.
If that all doesn't work, I think the only thing left is to get a boatyard to pull the mast and try to get at the stuck halyard from the bottom end of the mast, but that would be expensive, time comsuming and I'm not even sure what tool one could use to reach the stuck point if it's 15 fee or so inside the mast.
I have considered cutting the halyard at the exit plate and pushing it inside the mast, but I'm worried that it may over time obstruct something in there--other halyards or wires--and cause problems, so I'd rather get it out.
Christian, the splice was done many years ago before I bought the boat, so I can't go back to where that splice was done. I thought that splices were stronger than knots and would essentially last forever as long as the rope was still good, but this one was obviously faulty in some way.
I would really appreciate any other thoughts of ideas.
Frank

 

[Frank Langer]

Oh that’s a bummer, Frank.
Almost all the wiring should be protected in the aft track except where the steaming light wire exits and runs across to the forward edge of the mast. I like the scope approach to see if any snags or knots can be identified. I might first try to apply light pressure with a winch to try to break something loose although you might end up sacrificing the steaming light wiring. Best of luck getting the halyard free.

And yeah the mast tower sounds like an interesting structure. Do you have any photos

I think due caution is in order here. Probable that all of line piled on itself inside the mast, when it cleared top sheave at beginning of pull but could have just as easily fell between something. I would use an "inspecto-scope" camera to get a look inside and see what's happening. Plumbers use them all the time to look into pipes and drains, I use mine to check interior of wall cavities before demolition work. The only issue here is getting the scope inside the mast. Maybe clear another halyard sheave with messenger line and slip in that way. My scope is about same diameter as line so should fit through sheave. Once you can see then an informed decision is available, i.e. brute force or pull the mast. Flexible scope cameras are found at auto parts stores, or Harbor Freight, or buy your plumber a beer!

Thanks for this great idea! I've ordered one, but it won't arrive till March 4th.
So in the meantime I'll try various ways of moving the other halyards to get them out of the way, but I'm guessing the old one wrapped itself around something. Maybe the camera will show that when it arrives.
Frank

 

[Christian Williams]

Presuming Dyneema or similar, It does raise concern about core to core splices in the new halyard lines. Burying a long core is challenging and I will remind myself not to cheat when I do it myself. Such an eye splice is really just held together by tension and there needs to be a long bury, according to:

Length of bury: Both Brion Toss and Starzinger recommend that the length of the buried tail should be 72 times the rope's diameter. This is about three and a half full fid lengths (a full length fid is 21 times the rope's diameter.) The very slippery Spectra and Dyneema require this long bury.

But a halyard has to go around a sheave, and I don't think my main halyard splice is quite as long as recommended.

 

[Nick J]

Presuming Dyneema or similar, It does raise concern about core to core splices in the new halyard lines. Burying a long core is challenging and I will remind myself not to cheat when I do it myself. Such an eye splice is really just held together by tension and there needs to be a long bury, according to:

Length of bury: Both Brion Toss and Starzinger recommend that the length of the buried tail should be 72 times the rope's diameter. This is about three and a half full fid lengths (a full length fid is 21 times the rope's diameter.) The very slippery Spectra and Dyneema require this long bury.

But a halyard has to go around a sheave, and I don't think my main halyard splice is quite as long as recommended.

I had that problem when I replaced the headsail halyard on the 25+. I ended up cutting it off and using a halyard knot instead when the burry wouldn't fit through the sheave opening. I've read a few times about the importance of end over ending halyards and/or cutting off the last few feet to extend the life of the halyard. Is this something you do in your Bluewater experience? If so, does it require using halyard knots?

When I made up a halyard for the 35-3 headsail, I used a spliced in soft shackle. It fits on my boat, but my not in some instances. so far it works well, but this thread has be rethinking the risk reward balance now that I've seen what can go wrong if the knot or splice fails.

 

[peaman]

I ended up cutting it off and using a halyard knot instead when the burry wouldn't fit through the sheave opening. I've read a few times about the importance of end over ending halyards

This is what I have been doing. The boat gets hauled out each year for the winter (Rhode Island), so I pull messengers to replace the halyards. That gives me a chance to see the entire length of each line before they go back up in spring. The halyard hitch seems very secure and compact, but is easy enough to undo as needed. Each of my halyards is whipped with a messenger loop at each end.

 

[Loren Beach]

I would really appreciate any other thoughts of ideas.

My "other" thought is to use a halyard hitch (or the similar 'anchor hitch') to attach it to the shackle. I have been doing this for over 20 years. This also enables me to easily end-for-end the halyard after bring it down for wash. When removing any internal line, I do stitch a messenger line to the end, not relying on tape to keep the ends together.

 

[bgary]

Somewhere around here (I'll see if I can dig it up) there's another thread where a halyard got stuck inside the mast. There were a variety of ideas about how one might get it un-stuck.

My thought (worth every penny you've paid for it) is to run a new messenger line down the mast to the exit slot, tie a small loop (or stainless ring) in the end, and run the tail of the halyard through that loop. Then pull the messenger line up (running the loop along the hidden length of the old halyard) to see if you can lift the old halyard off whatever it is caught on inside the mast.

If you do that, I'd recommend also tying a "recovery line" to the loop and feeding it through the exit slot so you can get it back out if the attempt fails...

 

["Betty"]

Somewhere around here (I'll see if I can dig it up) there's another thread where a halyard got stuck inside the mast. There were a variety of ideas about how one might get it un-stuck.

My thought (worth every penny you've paid for it) is to run a new messenger line down the mast to the exit slot, tie a small loop (or stainless ring) in the end, and run the tail of the halyard through that loop. Then pull the messenger line up (running the loop along the hidden length of the old halyard) to see if you can lift the old halyard off whatever it is caught on inside the mast.

If you do that, I'd recommend also tying a "recovery line" to the loop and feeding it through the exit slot so you can get it back out if the attempt fails...

View attachment 49303

What size and type of line should the recovery and new messanger be?

 

[Christian Williams]

I had a look at my main halyard today. I sure didn't make that eye splice, the rigger did.

The bury goes all the way to the end of the loop. Amazing smooth.

...

 

[Frank Langer]

I had a look at my main halyard today. I sure didn't make that eye splice, the rigger did.

The bury goes all the way to the end of the loop. Amazing smooth.

View attachment 49310...View attachment 49307

Christian, the splice on my mainsail halyard that failed went about 5" below the loop in your pic, to about where your little finger is. I still don't know how it could have failed, but it did.
Frank

 

[Frank Langer]

Update on halyard problem:
I have tried every which way to free the stuck halyard, and nothing has worked so far. I tried pushing it upwards in the mast with a 50' fishtape, tried sliding a ring up the halyard with the fishtape to free it, loosened the headsail and spinnaker halyards in case it was stuck there. After giving it a good tug, I checked all the electrical stuff--VHF radio, anchor light, steaming light, anemometer, and they all still worked, so I surmised that the halyard was not caught on any wiring. My next hypothesis was that it had wrapped itself around the compression bolt between the two lower spreaders as it was falling. So I measured the length of halyard that I could see from the halyard exit plate on the mast back to the cockpit. That showed that there was likely about 5' left in the mast, so probably not wrapped around the compression post/spreaders which is a bit higher up. I then decided to lower the headsail and the spinnaker halyard to see if they were running free. I noticed that the old mainsail halyard moved when either of the other halyards moved, meaning that it had wrapped itself around these halyards while falling down the mast. I decided to risk using the winch to pull the halyard free, but even with alot of pressure on the winch, the halyard remained stuck.
I did order an endoscopic camera from Amazon but it won't arrive til March 4th. I'm not confident that even if I can see where the old halyard is hung up, that I could reach it in any way to free it, so I have arranged with Blackline Marine in Sidney to have them try to deal with it, starting next Thursday. They were very pleasant in discussing the problem and my attempts to date, and are very hopeful that they will be able to resolve it.
I don't like not being able to fix everything on my boat, but in this case, I'm a bit at wits end, and need the help. I'll report back on how that goes.
Frank

 

[bigd14]

Frank are the other halyards free enough that you could replace them with light messenger lines to try to free up some space to shift the stuck halyard?

 

[Frank Langer]

Frank are the other halyards free enough that you could replace them with light messenger lines to try to free up some space to shift the stuck halyard?

Doug,
Thanks for thinking of this, and yes, they seem to be running free, but interestingly, when I lowered the headsail to check, the old stuck main halyard moved up the mast as the Genoa and spinnaker rode up the mast as sails came down. Despite that, the last part of the halyard remained stuck. As all the electrical was working, and the halyards were moving, I followed Christian's suggestion of using a winch on the stuck one in hopes of freeing it, but no luck.
I spoke to a rigger in Sidney who commiserated, said there is 80% chance he can fix it. He thinks the old halyard has wrapped itself around the other halyards inside the mast when it fell inside the mast. At this point I've decided it's beyond my skill and patience level. So I'm heading to Sidney next week.
Thanks again for your suggestions!
Frank