E34-2 Mainsheet Woes (and other assorted rigging jobs to do)

[Phr3d]

Good morning all,

While sailing last time in the bay at San Diego (There was a noticeable need to trim differently between puffs), I was amazed at how difficult it was to get the mainsheet trimmed. I would have preferred it was on the outside starboard winch (Lewmar 16) rather than the one further forward (Lewmar 30) for grinding. It is thick, soft, stretchy line.

I've been looking for solutions. So far, I've identified the following:

-Stop procrastinating and push/pull some heavy weights
-Getting more "slippery" line (what kind is that?)
-Changing the fiddle block (the smaller block is aggravating friction?)
-Increasing purchase with new blocks (6:1, 8:1?)
-Some combination of the above

I did a search but did not find any low hanging fruit. I'm interested on how others have improved this situation...

Vang
It is installed with the cleat at the mast base. Is it this way because it was reaved through a block at the mast base to the cockpit? Or just to get the line "out of the way" of the companionway? The cleat does block the hatch from opening...

I'm going to try to turn it around so the line can be cleated/uncleated from cockpit.

Outhaul
It is ran through a clutch on the port side. The car was stuck and block frozen. I got it moving some...

Reefing Lines
They are through the boom and not touching the sail. The main is difficult (slides stick) to raise/lower at about 3/4 height. I'm going to go up there and inspect/clean it first chance. I wonder if the reefing lines were removed to lower resistance?

Topping Lift
I started wondering if there was a line for that?

Cunningham
I didn't see one, but I think I might need one...

Winches
What winch do you use for which lines?

Telltales
They are missing on the main. Is this an expensive thing to have repaired?

Miscellaneous Updates
Bottom paint complete!
Name change in process
I found the emergency tiller (still in bubble wrap)
Signaling kit included some 2003 vintage flares

 

[Christian Williams]

We need photo (maybe photos) showing your deck gear, vang, winches, deck organizers and clutches so we can see how it all works.

Probably some revision required.

You won't need a Cunningham and telltales are usually only on the foresail. Many issues here and a good iPhone photo, an "establishing shot" showing the cabin house, will help a lot in collecting opinions.

 

[bgary]

Mainsheet trim, oversimplified down to its essence, is about getting the shape you want positioned at the optimal angle to the wind.

Shape is determined by - in order of importance, IMO - vang (leech shape), outhaul (draft depth), and cunningham (draft position).

Once you have the shape you want, you can move the sail in and out using the mainsheet or traveler. If the vang is set to maintain the boom height, you can do gross adjustments with the mainsheet (called "vang sheeting", a useful technique for variable/gusty conditions), and fine adjustments with the traveler.


So... if any of that is valid, I'd suggest a couple of things to think about:

1) good line on the mainsheet is a must. If yours is stretchy, that's a good place to start. There are many good, low-stretch synthetics out there that run well in blocks and work well in self-tailers. For a traditional double-braid I'd look at Globe-5000. For a more modern core-dependent, I like VPC. There are many many other options, but the priority I'd recommend is about reducing friction. Personal preference, I like the smallest line that doesn't hurt my hands. Smaller lines run through blocks better and, with modern materials, the strength is a non-factor.

I use 5/16" low-stretch lines for vang, halyards and mainsheet.... both mainsheet and halyards are rated at over 4000 lbs safe-working load, and I figure if I ever have 4000 lbs of load on my mainsheet, I've got bigger problems to worry about. (the line I chose for my vang is rated at over 9000 lbs!)

2) good purchase is the secret sauce to making gross adjustments. I personally like more, but there is a trade-off. More purchase means more line, but it's easier to trim; less purchase is more efficient at delivering force, but... takes more effort. I ended up going with a 6:1 system that is *entirely* on the traveler (it does not run forward along the boom, then down and aft along the deck - it's simply a 6:1 system that feeds through a ratchet/cam-cleat block at the traveler). I did this for two reasons: one, I'm usually solo and I wanted to be able to gross-adjust the main from anywhere in the cockpit rather than having to go to the cabintop, and two, it is a LOT less friction. It allows me to easily "vang-sheet" my main like a gigantic Laser when I'm out and about.

3) if racing (or fascinated by getting that last 0.1% of performance out of the main), an easy-to-adjust traveler is the third pillar. Get the main in the shape you want, gross-trim the angle with mainsheet, and then fine-trim it with the traveler.


Nuances? Sure, there are many. Some to ponder....

4) I like being able to adjust the vang. I also like being able to flick the vang off ("dump the leech") in gusty conditions. So, similar to the mainsheet I made a simple cascading tackle and made it so it runs through a ratchet/cam-cleat block at the upper vang-bail on the boom. Easy enough to reach and can flick it out of the cleat as needed. Again, personal preference but it works for me. Note that you DO for-sure want low-stretch line here.

5) I tend to think of outhaul as a set-and-forget line unless that last 0.1% is the goal. Set it for the conditions, and if the conditions change significantly go fuss with it for a second. Because I don't adjust it much, I didn't see the need to run it aft along the deck to a cabintop winch - I have a purchase (3:1, IIRC) inside the boom and the tail comes out through the slot on the side. If I need to adjust it, I dump the mainsheet and vang, go pull (or ease) the outhaul. Yeah, it means I need to leave the cockpit, I don't do it often enough that it bothers me.

6) I do like a couple telltales on the leech of the main, usually one at/near each batten. They provide a good/quick visual check to see if the shape and angle are good... if all those telltales are streaming off the leech, you're doing well. You can pick up a package of stick-on telltales at the local marine hardware store, or order them online. Not expensive.


From there, IMO main trim is sort of a loop: check course and heel-angle, gross-adjust the main, check the telltales, fine-adjust the shape and position to get them streaming, repeat. And (especially upwind) do this in concert with adjustments to the headsail - the interaction between the two sails (leech-curve, slot, etc) is important.

Hope that helps...

 

[Frank Langer]

A few thoughts... After cleaning the mainsail track, spray it with McLube dry spray to make it much easier to raise the sail. My mainsail came from the loft with four Telltale's stuck on the Leach of the sail at the end of the battens. They are the kind that most chandleries sell for a few dollars. Although they are not essential, I do find them helpful.
I also find a cunningham useful to tension the bottom quarter of the mainsail luff. While I can achieve the same result by tensioning the halyard quite hard, it's easier with my cunningham.
The mainsheet should not be a soft, stretchy line. I think a new better line is needed.
Frank

 

[Christian Williams]

Here's a fairly standard arrangement. Mainsheet and main halyard have dedicated winches (mainsheet shares with first reef). Jib halyard, second reef and vang share a winch (using the clutch). Reef downhauls, optional, don't need a winch. Outhaul and topping lift not led back.

 

[Phr3d]

Good morning.

Several things:

My fantasy Hawaiian hailing port is complete.



Autohelm
I received the belt and other parts and need to take that thing apart to see if the lever can be made to do what it should.

Vang
The block without the cleat had a badly rusted snap shackle. we got it loose enough to bring home, currently trying to get the snap shackle loose - ideas are welcome.

Mainsheet
The furthermost forward block had split. Replaced and also replaced the 12mm line with 10mm APC. Night and day difference

Line Bags
Has anyone tried the Robship essential adhesive attachment type?

Winches
There are 2 Lewmar 30s on the starboard side and 1 on the port, with a single-speed 16 forward. What is the 16 best suited for?

Gooseneck
It is riveted to the mast. Has anyone changed this so that a cunningham is doable?

Pennant
The genoa is all the way down onto the furler. A rigger suggested adding a pennant to avoid a halyard wrap at the top. There is 16"-18" of halyard showing and the headsail could go up much further. Other benefits would be better view under the sail and it not wrapping around the pullpit. Has anyone got information to go about doing this pennant thing?


Hatches
All three deck hatches are sitting in my hallway ready to be installed.

Rigging
The picture below is the only picture I thought to take of the rigging.

 

[bgary]

Gooseneck
It is riveted to the mast. Has anyone changed this so that a cunningham is doable?

Pennant
The genoa is all the way down onto the furler. A rigger suggested adding a pennant to avoid a halyard wrap at the top. There is 16"-18" of halyard showing and the headsail could go up much further. Other benefits would be better view under the sail and it not wrapping around the pullpit. Has anyone got information to go about doing this pennant thing?

Gooseneck: it is fixed in place by design, to use a cunningham you ask your sailmaker to add a grommet about 6" up from the tack of the mainsail, and connect a cunningham line to that. It pulls down the cloth, not the gooseneck

Pennant: just my personal opinion, but I find the furler works better when the tack of the headsail is directly fixed to the furler drum, and the head is directly connected to the upper swivel. Pennants tend to wrap around the headstay foil and become problematic. A better option (IMO) is to install a halyard deflector on the front of the mast - if needed - so the halyard doesn't have room to wrap around the foil.

 

[Loren Beach]

Looking at Bruce's picture of his mainsheet multipart tackle, I wonder if it might benefit from a couple of single lines between the top of each block and the tang on the boom? (I did this for ours over 20 years ago, but it is admittedly easier with a single 6 to 1 mainsheet.)

Even a modest 1.5' or 2' pennant between each upper block and the the attachment points on the boom would reduce the total amount of sheet when jibbing by at least 6 feet, and likely a bit more.

I tried to show the parts referred to with some added arrows to the photo.
I should have shown the arrows lading from the boom downwards a ways, on second thought.

 

[Christian Williams]

Line Bags

I don't think any adhesive or Velcro works on line bags. Even snaps may not work in an active cockpit.

The issue is that line bags get stepped on, kneeled into and dragged open by the lines they contain, and in my experience nothing will keep them in place except screwing them into the bulkhead. Which is easy enough to do--and they'll unscrew fine when you want to wax the boat or take the bags home for repair.

 

[Marlin Prowell]

The innermost winch on port side is meant for the two reefing lines.

 

[Phr3d]

Has anyone had the topping lift wrap the green reef line inside the boom? Does it mean dissemble the gooseneck? Or is there a trick?

 

[Frank Langer]

I've not had that problem, but I had the outhaul get stuck in the boom. It was a bit tricky to get to the sheaves to get them untangled, but with patience I was able to get it fixed. Might be similar with the topping lift and reef lines
Frank

 

[Prairie Schooner]

Has anyone had the topping lift wrap the green reef line inside the boom? Does it mean dissemble the gooseneck? Or is there a trick?

If you want to dive deeper, these are some threads I have found helpful:

Whats in the boom?

I am replacing all the standing and running rigging on Moonshine. It previously had a roller furling system on the main. I have removed that and I am now returning it to its orignal configuration, if I can figure out what that was. It seems that there are three systems within the boom. A...

ericsonyachts.org

Outhaul diagram / drawing

Has anyone disassemble their outhaul and have came up with a diagram of how the purchases are set up? Mine has never worked freely, especially when winds are calm and I need to release the foot of the sail. I either need to install an exterior outhaul that works better or remove the one inside...

ericsonyachts.org

Boom Refurbish

Which end of the boom gave you the best access to the internal bits? Jeff, From memory, you probably need to attack it from both ends. The outhaul and topping lift are "anchored" at the front of the boom but do their work at the back. Here's the dis-assembly drawing I made when pulling mine...

ericsonyachts.org

Cheers,
Jeff

 

[Christian Williams]

has anyone had the topping lift wrap the green reef line inside the boom?

Yes. Took the boom apart. Learned to keep a little tension on outhaul, topping lift and reef lines.

 

[N.A.]

Boy there is some great information here; thanks all!

FWIW, I (E34-2) have my main sheet on the outside starboard winch. It's hard enough to grind there; can't imaging having it on the smaller inboard winch. I agree a new mainsheet is in order (see below, though), and if that, and a move to the outer winch, does not do it then would check whether your blocks are running smoothly or need replacing.

*** A big issue I have run into is that when downsizing running rigging, the smaller lines do not always (e.g. my jib sheets) hold properly in the winch self-tailers. This is a huge hassle, and sometimes dangerous when loads are high. And not at all cheap to fix (as in, new line or new winch as far as I or a boatyard can tell -- they tell me, and it looks to me, like the winches themselves are fine.) Anyway, before you get a hundred feet or so of small-diameter, expensive sheet I would make sure that not only is it not too nasty on your hands but that it holds in the self-tailer(s) of the winch(es) you plan to use. Slippery line, BTW, may also affect this.

I have no idea what windspeed and sail plan were involved in your assessment of ease of sheeting, but I would really NOT encourage a "Stop procrastinating and push/pull some heavy weights" approach. In high wind -- and I am sure that will get you in San Diego too, if it didn't already -- life is hard enough and you need to be able to trim when overpowered and things are dicey... for instance those times you didn't reef early enough, or whatever. That is not the time to discover you don't have the strength to trim, or to hurt yourself trying. I think it's a safety issue in that sense; get the friction out of the system and get the line on a big enough winch before you need it badly.

One thing I learned (from my friendly sailmaker when he was measuring for a sail) was that the mainsheet tackle blocks, which were rotating and twisting for me in a way I didn't understand, can be fixed in an orientation with setscrews so they don't twist as you sheet in/out. Maybe this wasn't happening to you, but if it was that would add a ton of friction, and it's a pain in the wazoo. Your blocks surely have the setscrews on the attachment fittings that let you allow them to rotate or fix them at a given angle to the shackle. Apologies if I am the only one who didn't know about this feature and everyone thinks this is obvious, but it sure made my life better, and for free.

My E34-2 has an adjustable topping lift. Not sure if you are suggesting you don't have one at all, or just that you can't find the adjustment.

FWIW: The best rigging modification I have made is running reef tack lines back to the cabintop. I strongly encourage it: suddenly you can reef calmly and from the safety fo the cockpit even in pretty arduous conditions. I viewed myself as a very competent reefer (lots of J24 at-the-mast reefing experience in high winds), but boy, having _both_ the reef tacks and outhauls led back is just awesome. I encourage you to do that, unless there is never any high wind in San Diego and you are never going anywhere else (which the Hawaii hailing port would seem to belie.)


PS: @bgary : That is a fantastic post in so many ways! Certainly helpful to me. I like the idea of the 6:1 and sheeting by hand... will have to look at that. As it is, though (rig similar to @Phr3d 's) I don't have much trouble with the main on the outside winch, even in 25 kts+ (though reefed then of course). My only complaint is the hassle of getting to it from behind the wheel, etc.
Anyway, for E34's: bgary's 6:1 mainsheet tackle is probably too little for an E34 -- he has 207 sqft vs and E34's 250 sqft of main, so I'd expect you'd need 7:1 or 8:1 to make it work. It's still tempting, but that's a lot of line and I think would require a quad block at least at the traveler end; a Harken 57mm quad has a max working load of 2400lb... far less than the 4000lb breaking load on bgary's sheet, but then I think most of the mainsheet blocks everyone has a far lower-load than the line these days.

 

[Christian Williams]

mainsheet tackle blocks, which were rotating and twisting

Set screws, yes, if you have them. But it's winching that puts the twist in the mainsheet, and turns the blocks, so the issue can be fixed by periodically unreeving and relieving the built-up twist in the line.

difficult to get the mainsheet trimmed.

Fine control of the mainsheet and multiple purchase is critical in racing. But I'm not racing, so if the cranking gets hard I just head up a little. Same with genoa trim. Same with changing position of the traveler uphill.

A quick luff is worth two winch sizes, costs nothing, and is underutilized basic technique.

 

[ConchyDug]

If your mainsheet gets twisted put a swiveling snap shackle on the sheet where it attaches to the becket on the block. It'll stop the twists from happening.

 

[Vtonian]

has anyone had the topping lift wrap the green reef line inside the boom?

Yes. Took the boom apart. Learned to keep a little tension on outhaul, topping lift and reef lines.

View attachment 50146

yikes, I had no idea that was the linguine storage locker.

 

[Nick J]

Here's a fairly standard arrangement. Mainsheet and main halyard have dedicated winches (mainsheet shares with first reef). Jib halyard, second reef and vang share a winch (using the clutch). Reef downhauls, optional, don't need a winch. Outhaul and topping lift not led back.


View attachment 50089

@Christian,

I would like to add downhaul lines for reefing. Can you elaborate on the other end of the downhaul? does it terminate on the sail or does it terminate on the mast and loop through the reef point?

 

[Christian Williams]

The downhauls are attached to dogbones on the main. The lines lie quietly against the mast with full main hoisted. Sometimes I tie them off at the gooseneck, if reefing seems unlikely, just for simplicity. There are some views of them in this 2-minute clip, with subtitles: