hard starting?

[brassmeister]

1989 32-3 with M25XP. It always takes 5-10 pushes of the starter button before the starter engages. When it does engage it starts fine. Is this normal? It's been this way for at least 10 years.

 

[Bolo]

Don’t think so. My M25XP “cold“ starts right away after about 10-15 second glow plug pre-heat. You might at least want to look into this by yourself or a qualified mechanic. Don’t crank the engine too much trying to start it with the seacock open cause that can cause catastrophic damage. Close the seacock and then open it after the engine starts. That short period (like 10 seconds) won’t harm the engine but will prevent damage.

 

[peaman]

1989 32-3 with M25XP. It always takes 5-10 pushes of the starter button before the starter engages. When it does engage it starts fine. Is this normal? It's been this way for at least 10 years.

Your start button could be corroded. Your start solenoid could have corroded wiring connections. Both are “easy” to diagnose and fix.

The start button has only two terminals (wire connections). Use a screw driver or other piece of metal to short them together. If the starter is responsive, the button should be replaced.

Checking and replacing the start solenoid is a little more difficult, but doable with an hour’s effort.

 

[Loren Beach]

There are several relevant threads here, and this is a good one:

Battery Health--hydrometer, plus potential starter motor isssues

I use two Trojan Group 27s for both house and starting. Lately one battery turns the M25 over with less oomph than the other. Both batteries were installed by the PO in early 2012. When on the Xantrex Truecharge2 40A charger, Hydrometer readings on Battery 1 are 127 for all six cells. Three...

ericsonyachts.org

I had the starter rebuilt on our prior M25XP at about a thousand hours, and it did wonders for starting quickly. That said, check ALL the wiring connections (pos. and neg.) also.

If you do a Search on 'starter motor' related topics there are others to study over, as well.

 

[Dave G.]

Sounds like loose or corroded connection(s). I would check all your connections especially the starter circuit and grounds on the block. Best to disassemble, clean, and re torque them all. I had a similar issue a few years back and that solved it for me.

 

[Dave G.]

Don’t crank the engine too much trying to start it with the seacock open cause that can cause catastrophic damage.

Bob, I have never heard this and curious what damage would result and what the source is for this ? Hopefully not something that happened to you

 

[peaman]

Bob, I have never heard this and curious what damage would result and what the source is for this ? Hopefully not something that happened to you

The pressure of exhaust gases is what pushes the water out of the wet exhaust muffler. Cranking allows raw water to go into the muffler, but without exhaust from combustion, the water can build up to the point of backing up into the engine.

 

[gabriel]

I don’t have a diesel in my boat but I’ve owned many Mercedes Benz with them, the first place I would look at with that symptom are the glow plugs, glow relay if it’s an IDI diesel.

 

[Bolo]

Bob, I have never heard this and curious what damage would result and what the source is for this ? Hopefully not something that happened to you

In extreme cases, if you "overcrank" a marine diesel with a wet exhaust, water can back up into the cylinders causing a “hydro lock” and can possibly crack the block…or so I’ve read. In any case, cranking your diesel engine for long periods usually means that there is an issue that needs to be addressed.

 

[brassmeister]

Sounds like loose or corroded connection(s). I would check all your connections especially the starter circuit and grounds on the block. Best to disassemble, clean, and re torque them all. I had a similar issue a few years back and that solved it for me.

Redid all the starter side connections already with no change. Going to check the starter button as peaman suggested-don't know why I didn't think of that while I was doing the starter side.

 

[Frank Langer]

When I had similar symptoms, replacing the solenoid solved the starting problems, has started regularly since then
Frank

 

[Pete the Cat]

Your start button could be corroded. Your start solenoid could have corroded wiring connections. Both are “easy” to diagnose and fix.

The start button has only two terminals (wire connections). Use a screw driver or other piece of metal to short them together. If the starter is responsive, the button should be replaced.

Checking and replacing the start solenoid is a little more difficult, but doable with an hour’s effort.

I would suggest the wiring is likely the problem. The "trailer hitch" connection for the instrument panel is a bugger and i would recommend replacing it with a regular bus--takes time, but not skills. Also, the main ground for the starter on the 25XP is right below where the heat exchanger and a bunch of plumbing could be dropping leaks and condensation--so I would clean that up with a wire brush. You can check the solenoid as with a screwdriver. I definitely would do the wiring changes and maintenance before starting to replace starters and solenoids.

 

[dandimm]

I feel your pain...I have the same, frustrating inconsistent starting issues as you on my 1984 30+. It has a Universal M18 engine. This past weekend it left me stuck for a hour while I had guests on the boat. (panic) I almost had to bear the shame of calling TowBoatUS .

Lot of good info on this thread that I have already tried.

When I push the starter button somethings and I can hear the solenoid click but no start. I push it a second or third time and it starts up. I am still trying to track down the issue. I have replaced the batteries, starter/solenoid, new wire bypassing the trailer connector to the solenoid, new wire to from the starter directly to the key switch, new starter button, did the ammeter mod to remove the orange wire, new fuse holder for the solenoid wire, cleaned all the battery connections and tried to locate all the engine grounds to clean.

I plan to replace the rest of the low amp wires in the trailer harness this fall.

I saw in @Pete the Cat previous post about the starter ground and it got me thinking. Sorry to ask but does anyone here know where the M18 starter grounds at on the engine? I am started to also suspect it is a grounding issue.

Thanks,
Daniel

 

[Kenneth K]

Sorry to ask but does anyone here know where the M18 starter grounds at on the engine? I am started to also suspect it is a grounding issue.

I suspect this could be a grounding issue, too.

The starter grounds itself to the engine block by virtue of being bolted to it (btw, the same is true for the glow plugs). This begs the question, "how is the engine block grounded to the batteries?" Surprisingly, many Ericson engines are grounded via a (neg) battery cable attached to the exhaust flange. Sounds really dumb to hook a major, high amperage connection to the hottest part of the engine but this is what Ericson often did. The picture below is borrowed from Compass Marine. The black cable on the right-most exhaust flange bolt is the cable that grounds the engine block back to the battery(s).


Ericson used the engine block itself as a "ground bus," which leads to the problem of other multiple, various bolts on the engine being used as ground points. This is a picture of my original engine exhaust manifold, with three of the attachment screws being as ground points.



It's far better to relocate the engine grounding cable to a lower point on the engine and then run a cable to a ground-bus-block on the engine stringer. A separate bus block makes a neat and tidy collection of all ground points that are then connected by a single cable back to the negative battery terminal.

New ground point.

Ground bus block.

 

[dandimm]

Thank you very much for the detailed information. I will be changing out the ground points on my next trip to the marine.

 

[Christian Williams]

5-10 pushes of the starter button before the starter engages

But the first thing to do is suspect the button itself. They're not very long-lived. Connect the wires, or bridge with a screwdriver, to eliminate this simple possibility. These typical "Mom on" buttons corrode and need periodic replacement.

[Oh, sorry, already said in Post #3]

 

[dandimm]

Just a quick update to the fix that finally resolved my intermittent starting issue that I had for the last 5 years. After replacing all the wiring to the cockpit, new starter, new solenoid, new batteries, cleaned and replaced a lot of the grounds and connections points, the solution that really fixed the issue was installing a Cole Hersee 24037 Intermittent Duty Solenoid. It's $30 on Amazon plus about 3 hours work.

I have attached my updated engine wiring diagram.

Amazon.com

The boat now starts first time, first press of the starter button. I am grateful to all the helpful people on this group!

 

[Christian Williams]

M25 Engine Wiring Upgrade--Part 1, Cockpit Gauges
M25 Engine Wiring Upgrade--Part 2, Alternator Jump and Bus Bar
A Novice's Guide to Panel Reorganization--Part 1
A Novice's Guide to Panel Reorganization--Part 2

 

[N.A.]

Thanks everyone!

I will try a new solenoid myself; I have the same intermittent issue, though I have a different engine (Yanmar 3GM30F). It is not the switch -- I replaced that (and yes, with a Yanmar part) and no change. A dockmate with the same engine had told me that the wire runs for Yanmars were often too small-gauge wire, and that replacing the run with heavier gauge had fixed his similar issue.

The solenoid sounds like a much easier fix than redoing the wire run : ) Ditto with @Pete the Cat 's suggestion re: replacing the trailer hitch with a block terminal -- might also help decrease (in this case contact) resistance in a simpler way than redoing the wire run.

 

[Pete the Cat]

In deciding about new wire or not: I have seen situations where, for reasons I cannot explain, the corrosion goes through the wire and turns it green and sometimes black for a long way. Those wires are going to be a problem and need to be replaced. But most electrical problems seem to be in the connectors rather in the wire run. I carefully cleaned and refastened the grounds to my system last year (recent wire), and still had a hard starting situation attributable to the main negative connection just 12 months later. Go figure.