significant water ingress to the bilges - 32-3

[nquigley]

I need advice for sourcing a steady water leak into my bilges. I have not had a persistent water leak into the bilges before (except when motoring fast and stern squats).

I've been on the hard at a marina in Mobile AL for a month - bottom paint, cutlass bearing replacement, new injectors, install new head gasket set.
I went back in the water late yesterday afternoon. The engine started fine after thorough fuel line bleeding, and I motored to a transient slip. There was water in the bilges which I pumped out (including using a manual pump)

BUT, the main bilge pump activated about 10pm with about 2" of water in main bilge. I helped it empty the bilge by pulling the float up until the pump finished.
Then, about every hour all night, the bilge pump activated again.
If I use a manual vacuum to get all water out of all bilge areas (incl in front of the mast), it takes 1hr, 15min to refill enough for the pump to cycle on automatically.
If I don't help it get all water out and just let the pump deactivate with ~1" still in the main bilge, it takes about 40 min to refill enough to activate the pump automatically.
So, it's not a trivial leak that I can ignore!

These possible culprits have been eliminated: stuffing box and rubber hose clamped to shaft tube are not leaking, anchor well is dry, water tanks were filled 2 days ago - all still completely full, seacocks in head and in engine bay are not leaking, when engine is running - no leaks seen on raw water side, heat exchanger side, or exhaust side.

Please give me any ideas I should chase - feeling a bit desperate :-\
Are there any potential back-syphons that could be happening, when bilge pump and engine are off?
Due to the inaccessibility of under-floor areas and plumbing, I'm worried that I'll end up having to tear up the floors if I suspect a split hose under there or other inaccessible failure point.

 

[Bolo]

I have an Ericson 32-3 also, hull #722 so we’re practically related. So, from what you describe, the leak happens also when the auxiliary isn’t running. Of course you double, maybe triple checked all the places you listed as possible leak spots. There is one you might also check that caused the same issue on my boat that you have now. That is the hose that runs from the seacock under the galley sink to the inner scuppers by way of the “T” fitting under the bridge deck. My hose split someplace in between those two point so that when the seacock was open or if it rained the bilge filled up cause the pump to activate. It wasn’t an obvious leak but one clue was that there was a very small stream of water coming out of the hole in the TAFG that could be seen by opening the third bilge from the bow. (My boat has four bilge panels. One for the mast(shower and two for the main bilge with the last one under the companion way steps) So take a look at that hose. The one I replaced was damaged by freezing. Now when I winterize I pour antifreeze down the inner scuppers.

If not that then did you check the rudder tube? The hot water relief valve? I had that go bad on me once but it didn’t leak at the rate you described. How about the transducers which are located under the v-birth?

 

[AK67]

Saltwater?

 

[bigd14]

Process of elimination. Close all thru hulls. If it’s dry you know it’s an hose. Open one thru hull at a time and wait to see if bilge fills then chase hoses and fittings. If you haven’t replaced the crusty old ribbed hoses one of them is probably the culprit. Good luck. No fun.

 

[peaman]

Through hull speed log? Since you were hauled and refloated, if the speed log was not removed, it could have been damaged. I always remove mine before hauling out.

 

[Loren Beach]

Through hull speed log? Since you were hauled and refloated, if the speed log was not removed, it could have been damaged. I always remove mine before hauling out.

Excellent point. Same double-check if the hull has a depth transducer mounted thru-hull.

 

[Kenneth K]

Are your bilge sections connected to each other with limber holes at the bottom? Can you plug some of the limber holes to see if the water is coming in from the front half (head, water tanks, speed transducer) or the back half of the boat (cockpit scuppers, rudder, prop shaft, galley, depth transducer)?

Both the speed and depth transducers on the 32-3 are inspectable without floor access.

 

[nquigley]

Thank you all!
I tried the 'close all through-hulls' tip - did not affect the flow ... at least that means it's likely not a hose.
I tried to block a limber hole but could only block the after one in the bilge just aft of the main bilge - didn't impact ingress.
The only transducer I still have is a depth meter - I was careful to make the yard guys avoid it with their lift straps - On the inside, that area is bone dry (my anchor locker has a full-height/width tabbed bulkhead, making it water-tight except the drain hole (i.e., it is not connected to the bilges).
Saltwater? I'm in a brackish river that empties into Mobile Bay - between that, and the traces of oil, and my citrus bilge cleaner, I'm not sure I could use that taste test to determine its source.
The packing gland is not dripping (viewed from in front of the engine. But, in the morning, I'll carefully check the rubber hose that connects the stuffing box and the shaft tube - the yard replaced the cutlass bearing (with a puller tool that avoiding pulling the shaft out) - I'm wondering if it took some force to do that, or to get the prop off, which might have tweaked that rubber hose connection - a leak there could fit all the symptoms so far.
I'm pretty sure it's not from a leaking keel bolt - I tried to torque them when I was on the hard (250 lb for the big nuts and 175 lb or the small one) I was able to tighten only one big nut, by <1/8th of a turn - the others were very tight and would not budge. Also - no crack between hull and top of keel was seen.
More fun in the morning ... thank everyone!

 

[jtsai]

Sounds like you have ruled out all the obvious. Time to be brave and taste the bilge water. If brackish, the source may be a compromised anchor well drain tube, Go motor around at hull speed and monitor water level in the bilge. It will be quite obvious.

 

[Loren Beach]

Hmmm.... You have done the Occam's Razor part of the trouble shooting pretty darned well.
One other place I would look is at the heavy duty short hose on the stuffing box. There should be two ss clamps holding it onto the shaft log.
And there should never be a drip from that connection.

 

[nquigley]

I have an Ericson 32-3 also, hull #722 so we’re practically related. So, from what you describe, the leak happens also when the auxiliary isn’t running. Of course you double, maybe triple checked all the places you listed as possible leak spots. There is one you might also check that caused the same issue on my boat that you have now. That is the hose that runs from the seacock under the galley sink to the inner scuppers by way of the “T” fitting under the bridge deck. My hose split someplace in between those two point so that when the seacock was open or if it rained the bilge filled up cause the pump to activate. It wasn’t an obvious leak but one clue was that there was a very small stream of water coming out of the hole in the TAFG that could be seen by opening the third bilge from the bow. (My boat has four bilge panels. One for the mast(shower and two for the main bilge with the last one under the companion way steps) So take a look at that hose. The one I replaced was damaged by freezing. Now when I winterize I pour antifreeze down the inner scuppers.

If not that then did you check the rudder tube? The hot water relief valve? I had that go bad on me once but it didn’t leak at the rate you described. How about the transducers which are located under the v-birth?

Hi Bob,

Thanks for these great ideas. I remember your cracked Y-hose deal. Please see below - I closed all seacocks tonight - the ingress still continues.
Yes - the leak continues with the engine off.
I have 5 bilge compartments: the one under the companionway is (always) bone dry, the next one sometimes has a very little water at the forward end , seems to have a very very slight trickle running through it (from occasional packing gland drips at rest?). The two main bilges seem to be receiving water from their aft limber holes. The inaccessible bilge under the floor right in front of the mast is filling up with bilge water too, and not just with rainwater coming from the drain in the front of the keel step. I can suck that out via the keel step's drain hole. Strangely, though, the forward bilge (shower water) is also filling up a bit - maybe the shower drain hose doesn't completely occupy the hole through which it enters the bilge).

I'll check the rudder tube in the morning, and the clamped rubber hose connecting the stuffing box and the prop shaft tube.
I'm running out to places where a steady flow of water can be coming in :-\

 

[nquigley]

Sounds like you have ruled out all the obvious. Time to be brave and taste the bilge water. If brackish, the source may be a compromised anchor well drain tube, Go motor around at hull speed and monitor water level in the bilge. It will be quite obvious.

I did that just now - slightly salty, as might be expected in a brackish tidal river.
My anchor well 'bucket' was removed and the forward bulkhead was reinforced (3/4" marine ply, glass cloth and epoxy) and extended down to the hull and tabbed to the sides - yes, water does get pushed into the anchor well via the drain hole (I've seen it up to ~8" deep), but it can't go into my bilges and quickly drains out when I slow down.

 

[nquigley]

Hmmm.... You have done the Occam's Razor part of the trouble shooting pretty darned well.
One other place I would look is at the heavy duty short hose on the stuffing box. There should be two ss clamps holding it onto the shaft log.
And there should never be a drip from that connection.

Thanks, Loren. I'll do that in the morning.
I'll also check the rudder post housing for possible cracks/leakage, from the quarterberth angle and from inside the lazarette.

I sucked out all bilges just now and watched the new ingress ... seems to be a slow stream entering the bilge with one keel bolt and the whale gusher inlet, and a general rising of the water level in the main bilge via it's one limber hole. If I had floorboards that I could lift up, this would be an easy study, but, alas.

 

[bsangs]

seems to be a slow stream entering the bilge with one keel bolt and the whale gusher inlet, and a general rising of the water level in the main bilge via it's one limber hole. If I had floorboards that I could lift up, this would be an easy study, but, alas.

Is that keel bolt OK?

 

[Prairie Schooner]

You didn't by any chance put any screws in the sole or near the hull/TAFG junction?
post # 54 https://ericsonyachts.org/ie/threads/e35-3-yet-another-thread-on-sole-replacement.19702/post-176941

Even when I put the screw in the hole to staunch the flow the water that came through past the threads was about equal to what you are describing. So I don't think it takes a very big breach to get dangerous flow. I can really identify with how you might be feeling. Though I was lucky to know the source right away.

In the process of pulling the cutless bearing, could the crew have tweaked the strut enough to crack the hull? Sailing on the Chesapeake one night, we got stuck in a fish trap net. The skipper tried to back out under power which wrapped the prop in cable which torqued the strut, cracking it's connection to the hull. It allowed a Lot of water in. That was the first time I used epoxy putty to patch a boat leak.

 

[Christian Williams]

Empty all drinking water tanks (just open the faucets at sink and head).

Need to eliminate that common source of mystery bilge water. Sometimes fresh water tanks and their hidden hoses leak only when pressure water is on, especially if the system is left pressurized overnight.

 

[Alan Gomes]

If your hull is somehow breached, you may need to haul the boat, fill the bilge with water as high as you can, and see where it comes out.

Something similar actually happened to me, and that is how we found the source. The breach in question was a very small crack where the rudder tube was bonded to the hull. (See first photo.) The water was making its way up the crack and into the aft end of the boat. From there the water ran down into the bilge. While I could easily see that the water was coming in from above and running down, for all the world it looked as though the breach was originating from the very aft end of the skeg.

When we hauled the boat and tore into the skeg it was clear that there *was* some really poor layup in that area and we did a thorough repair of the skeg's aft end. (See second photo.) But after splashing the boat the water was still coming in because we had "repaired" the wrong place! (I'm glad we did, actually, because the layup was exceedingly bad and now it is really solid. The layup had so many voids that it looked like an ant farm before we redid it!) Anyway, we built a dam that would contain the water inside the skeg, i.e., from inside the boat, and it was only then that we could see the water flow back out, with the help of gravity. (See third photo for a picture of the dam.) That crack, though clear enough in the first picture, was not so obvious until we cleaned it out; the picture was taken after we cleaned it all up. But we would not have seen it had we not observed the water dribbling out of there.

In my case the leak was intermittent. This is because marine growth would sometimes block the crack and stop the water flow or keep it to a minimum. Then, right after my diver would do my monthly hull cleaning, it would return with a vengeance. I put together the fact that the leak coincided with the hull cleanings, but again, I thought the offending area was the aft end of the skeg, and there were enough voids in it that we wrongly thought we had found our smoking gun during the initial repair.

Not sure any of this would apply to your situation. However, it's worth keeping in mind that the same entry point that allows water into the hull could also allow it to flow out.

 

[Kenneth K]

Maybe the shower drain hose doesn't completely occupy the hole through which it enters the bilge.

Yeah, that was my experience. A rather sloppy hole with a loose hose poked through it. Water that entered the mast bilge would thus flow under the TAFG (and vice versa).

 

[Kenneth K]

Also, here are some pictures from my PSS leak in 2020. The flow of water would be similar for a rudder post leak.

Water from the prop shaft log (or rudder tube) flows forward along the hull, then goes under the engine pan (you can see the leaking water flowing just below the arrow):
Under the engine pan.

When it comes out from under the engine pan, water is first visible again in the bilge with the small, single keel bolt.
Small, single keel bolt.

Between the engine pan and this first bilge pocket, water is not visible (flows under the TAFG). Here's what it looks like if you pull up the floorboard:


After this, water is free to flow under the TAFG in the bilge areas and will be begin filling each bilge pocket from below, as it rises to the level of their limber holes.

If you can remove your water heater (and the wood plate that it sits on), it gives you a good inspection of the rudder tube and strut areas.

There is a molded-in "pocket" just forward of the rudder tube that fills with water (and debris) before water can flow forward along the hull:
Pocket.

 

[Christian Williams]

Due to the inaccessibility of under-floor areas and plumbing

Here are some more photos of a 32-3 with the floorboards up:

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