Plans for Extending Rudder

[msc1212]

A year ago I posted a question about what modifications I needed to make to improve the upwind performance of my E35mk11. Seth provided a three point list-

-install inner tracks
-install a backstay adjuster
-lengthen the depth of the E35 rudder to a Cal40 shape.

The first two were done last winter with great results. I want to drop the rudder out next week and get started on the rudder modification. Because I live in Ontario sending the rudder to California to Foss is a bit of a stretch. I have boat builders in my town that can make the changes. The question is, are there plans that I can get for this project?

As always any help would be greatly appreciated.

As an aside I have to tell the Ericson community about our best result this season- In the "Lake Ontario 300" we sailed IMPROMPTU to a second place finish in our division and third (on corrected time) in the fleet of 58 boats - 160 nautical miles white sail only. It was fun to finish 10th over the line with a couple of J boats ahead and behind. Not a dreaded Beneteau in sight. Awesome.

Cheers

Michael

 

[missalot]

A while back I contacted Foss about a rudder for my 29. This was included in the information they sent back. This might give you a bit of an idea for your rudder modifications.

 

[Chad and Sandy]

Rudder

I was just wondering if this configuration would also work for the 27' and 32' Ericson of the same vintage?

 

[dc27]

I was just wondering if this configuration would also work for the 27' and 32' Ericson of the same vintage?

their design for the E27 rudder appears to be exactly the same, except A) with a shorter rudder post (26.5 inches, instead of 33.5) and B) with a slightly contoured top edge, i assume to accommodate contours in the bottom of the E27 hull. they quote a price of $950.

i wonder what "make from Cal 40" means?

i also wonder if they'd get mad seeing their technical drawings posted online? :eek:

 

[CaptDan]

i wonder what "make from Cal 40" means?

It's been oft stated the E35II's rudder is insufficient for optimum windward performance, contributes to weather helm, squirelly downwind response, and is a leading cause of adult acne. {One of those claims is bogus, but I threw it in anyway.} So owners opted for one of three solutions:

1. Fabricate (or do an outright swap to) a Cal 40 rudder. The venerable Bill Lapworth designed
Cal 40 (from 1960-70s So Cal's Jensen Marine) is among the great classic plastics, was sailed to glory by such rock stars as Dennis Connor, and sports a deep rudder with enhanced profile relative to the E35II's stock unit.

2. Swap to (or fabricate) an E38 rudder. Allegedly, Bruce King originally had something similar in mind but bean counters @ Ericson Yachts over ruled him by foisting the extant E32 rudder on the
hull instead.

3. Reef early and often, use vang and traveler, trim well and prosper.

Capt Dan G> E35II "Kunu"

 

[dc27]

ah.

so were the rudders of the '70s-era Ericsons foam like the Foss designs, or some other construction? anyone know?

 

[Glyn Judson]

Rudder innards.

Dear Mr. dc27, As to the E31, close to half of them were filled fiberglass and asbestos mixed into a slurry and poured in (Marty, what's that stuff called?). I lifted one off hull #33 and it took two of us to heft it. Mind you, our rudders are seven or eight feet tall so your rudder and other Ericson rudders might be a lot easier to lift especially if they're foam filled. Glyn Judson, E31 hull #55, Marina del Rey, CA

 

[Loren Beach]

Just a SWAG, but the spade rudder cores were probably high density foam molded around a steel armature which was welded to a SS shaft. All is well forever as long as you keep water from entering and corroding the welds.


As to whether the drawings above give away any secrets, remember that the profile is important, but not more so than the blade-foil table of offsets....

(Imagine trying to reconstruct an Ericson 27 from scratch, if you have only a profile drawing of the hull.)


Cheers,
Loren

 

[steven]

This rudder was put on by PO. For a 38?
Boat handles very well. Also have a big wheel.

--Steve

 

[CaptDan]

This rudder was put on by PO. For a 38?
--Steve

Yup. Here's another example for comparison:

http://members.aol.com/socalsail/Page5.html

Scroll down the page for the rudder pix.

Capt Dan G>E35II "Kunu'

 

[windjunkee]

I had our rudder modified a couple years ago on our 1970 E-32-2. I dropped the rudder out in the water. If you do this, be careful. The rudder itself floats, but the SS rudder post does not. Thus, when we pushed the post out the rudder tube, it immediately inverted, striking the underside of the hull and taking a nice bite out of the trailing edge of the rudder blade. I was more careful putting it back in.

I thought of having the rudder completely redesigned and spoke with a couple of MA's here in town. That was tremendously expensive though (upwards of $8,000 for design and fabrication). So I took it to a local builder (Dennis Choate, Dencho Marine) who thought it would be much more economical (cost-benefit analysis) to modify it. He added about 3.5 square feet to the rudder area. He narrowed it, reshaped it and lengthened it. So now it is deeper and slimmer. I have better lift upwind and MUCH better control off the wind. It only cost me around $800 for the modification. I did the paint prep and paint myself after that.

Hope that helps.

I didn't get any decent photos to show the before/after. I should have been more thoughtful.

Jim McCone
Voice of Reason E-32-2 Hull #134
Redondo Beach, CA
Hope that helps.

 

[msc1212]

Thanks very much for all the comments. I've approached Foss to have the modification done. One question I have which I didn't ask before... does the bigger rudder change the PRHF rating on the E35mk11? THe boat as I understand it was originally designed with a larger rudder. Enlarging the rudder just returns the boat to it's original design specifications which would make the modification neutral. Is this correct? If there is a penalty, what could I expect? My rating in Lake Ontario is 177. Cheers

Michael

 

[tenders]

It might well change the rating. PHRF measurements are taken from actual boats, not plans of boats. The actual penalty depends on lots of things...probably a few seconds a mile, similar to the way a large genoa gets penalized. (Arguably a rudder is a better way to take a penalty...you use the rudder 100% of the time, not so the larger sail.)

> I dropped the rudder out in the water.

Jim, how did you prevent water from getting into the hollow rudderpost when you reinstalled it?

 

[Seth]

Nice try!

You must be in sales!
It is a stretch to make the claim of a "neutral" mod-one that returns the boat to normal-and that won't fly.

The good news is the hit will be minor and maybe no hit at all. The rudder will make the boat perform better-otherwise it is not worth doing.You will be slightly faster on all points except possibly very light air, point higher upwind (hence better VMG), be able to sail deeper with control downwind (again, better VMG), but you can make a claim (but I wouldn't buy it) that the larger area will slow you a little in light air-which offsets the gain in breeze-for a net ZERO.

The fair thing is about a 3 second hit-and it is well worth it....
Cheers,
S

 

[Phil MacFarlane]

Hi All,

I have the Cal 40 rudder in my E-35 II. It is the one that Bruce King recommended I get. It was made by Foss Foam. The construction is as Loren stated.
This rudder is not the original Cal 40 rudder. It is a newer design by Carl Schumacher of Express fame and others. Mr. King and Don at Foss Foam said it would be a far better choice than the E 38 rudder I was thinking of. It fits under a 35 II without any modification. I have bought two (different story) the last one about three years ago for $1400.00 plus shipping from so Cal.
Nor Cal PHRF did not hit me and told me they never hit a rating for a rudder change. Your local board may feel differently.

Best

Phil

 

[west]

Am I correct in thinking we can keep more sail up in higher winds with a larger rudder? That we will gain greater control of the boat? I have an E 32 MK III 1985. Thanks
West

 

[Phil MacFarlane]

Am I correct in thinking we can keep more sail up in higher winds with a larger rudder? That we will gain greater control of the boat? I have an E 32 MK III 1985. Thanks
West

yes, you are correct.

 

[dc27]

next question: do all 27s have the same diameter rudder post? that is, would one need to pull the rudder and get out the calipers before ordering a new rudder, or would Foss know the proper setup already? (i'll ask Foss too, but they know rudders, you guys know Ericsons.)

 

[Seth]

Foss knows rudders

IIRC the 27 has a 3/4" post-but I am sure others here can confirm.
Either way-Foss will know exactly.

 

[Seth]

Hold the phone

Am I correct in thinking we can keep more sail up in higher winds with a larger rudder? That we will gain greater control of the boat? I have an E 32 MK III 1985. Thanks
West

The 32-3 is the modern style and is not generally considered to be afflicted with a small rudder-certainly not in the way the 32-2 and 35-2 are/were.

These mods are generally done for the 70's vintage boats, and there is a HUGE difference between these designs and those of the 1980's.

I would not hesitate to consider a rudder mod for a 32-2 or 35-2, but I would look elsewhere for solutions to whatever is ailing your 32-3. These boats have ample rudders so I would look at sail combinations (biggest area for solutions), load distribution (where and how much "extra" weight is being carried-do you have a lot of stuff in the bow area?), rig tune, etc...

Let's see specifically what your problem is and try to solve it...

Cheers,
S