Plans for Extending Rudder

[windjunkee]

Tenders

Water got into the tube while the rudder post was out, but the top of the tube was above water level. When I got in the water and positioned the post to slide back into the tube, a little water was pushed up in front of the post, but it just drained into the bilge. It wasn't a concern and probably didn't amount to more than a few pints of water at most.

I notified our local PHRF chapter of the modifications to the rudder AND about the addition of the hydraulic backstay adjuster and neither resulted in a change to our rating.

Jim McCone
Voice of Reason, E32-2 Hull #134
Redondo Beach, CA

 

[clayton]

Rudder

Seth is correct, the 32-3 has a large rudder, and shouldn't need to be modified. If you feel that the boat is tender, and find yourself reefing, well welcome to Ericson. Look at your keel - if you have the deep delta shape, most of the weight is located just under the hull. See the thread regarding adding a torpedo bulb, and threads regarding new sails. Keeping the boat on its feet is what you need to do, and reefing earlier than some of the competition will find you still upright and moving fast.
Good luck.
Clayton
E32-200

 

[Loren Beach]

Time Flies.......

Speaking of sails...
Most of these "newer series" Ericsons are now two decades plus in age and very likely need to have sails recut or replaced. On any boat of this vintage you get excess heel and weather helm from bagged-out and stretched sails. Once the draft moves aft, I figure that you can get one good recut, and even that is dependent on the health of the rest of the cloth.

My .02 worth,

Loren

 

[msc1212]

I finally decided to send my rudder to Foss to be rebuilt. I spoke to a few fabricators who told me (once they found out the price $900.00) that I would be stupid not to. To save on shipping Foss recommended I cut away the fibreglass and foam and just send the post. I've attached several jpegs of the deconstruction. The process took about 90 minutes with a saw, hammer and chisel. I photographed what I thought were interesting parts of the process. They might help someone who has a question about the construction of these rudders. Something that I was impressed with was the absence in my rudder of any leaks,cracks or soft spots. The rudder was 38 years old and looked brand new from the inside. It hurt to cut up something so well made so I focused instead on the stock broker who recommended buying financials this summer because they were at 52 week lows. This made it a little easier. I hope the photos are helpful.

Cheers

Michael

 

[dc27]

To save on shipping Foss recommended I cut away the fibreglass and foam and just send the post.

Michael

curious: what determines that you'd want to send them your old post to build a new rudder around, versus just ordering a new rudder *and* post?

(cool photos, BTW!)

 

[msc1212]

The difference is about $900 dollars: $900 to rebuilt, $1800 to buy a new one. There is the extra cost of shipping my post to them that adds about $150. The upside of building on my post is that at least I know it fits. This is never a guarantee with something new going into a forty year old boat.

Cheers

Michael

 

[dc27]

$900 is a very convincing reason!

 

[Chad and Sandy]

Rudder

I'm just curious. Could you just do it yourself? I don't mean start from scratch, I mean just add glass, foam, and cloth to the leading edge and bottom. It may not be scientific or as efficient but it would be cheaper. Just an idea.

Fair winds,

Chad

 

[Lucky Dog]

Thanks for the photos

I have removed our 35- II rudder with plans for a redesign and rebuild. So far I have removed the paint. Interesting stress marks. Your inner structure is much different than am expecting. I have surprised at the posts about the rudder floats. Our weighs more than expected. I dropped ours when the boat was in the cradle. It was after hours and of course it knock over the ladder leaving high, dry and laughing at myself.
Next week I start cutting the old shape away.

 

[msc1212]

I'm just curious. Could you just do it yourself? I don't mean start from scratch, I mean just add glass, foam, and cloth to the leading edge and bottom. It may not be scientific or as efficient but it would be cheaper. Just an idea.

Fair winds,

Chad

I thought long and hard about doing it myself. My idea was to have 1"carbon/foam panels cut on a water jet cutter. The foil shape would be created by stacking cross sections which would be glued to the rudder's steel structure. The advantage of this would be getting the foil shape quickly and accurately. You'd save time on the fairing. The costs though to do this are considerable. Plus I wasn't able to find autocad drawings of an appropriate foil. Getting a designer to make you autocad drawings isn't cheap either. $900 for Foss is a bargain compared with this option.

Just adding onto the rudder with some foam and glass is not as easy as it sounds either. The point is to extend the rudder and improve it's performance. Lengthening the foil changes the way water passes over it. Many things about the shape need to change because you've changed the aspect ratio of the foil. You could spend a lot of time glassing and fairing and not improve the rudder's performance.

I'm all for DIY but this was one of those times where I decided to send the rudder to the guys who've worked out all these problems.

I hope this helps.

Cheers

Michael

 

[steven]

is a foil (v. a flat plate) really necessary?

 

[missalot]

is a foil (v. a flat plate) really necessary?

The simple answer is yes. As you turn the rudder, the foil creates lift, just like the draft and shape of our sails.

 

[msc1212]

I read a good book over Christmas that brought me to the decision to spend the money and time to extend my rudder and have Foss do it. The book is called "Yacht Design Explained" by Steve Killing and Douglas Hunter. It does a very good job of explaining why boats sail the way they do in terms that a non-engineer like me can understand. There's an entire chapter on rudder design. If you can find the book it's worth it. Arguably a flat rudder is a foil- albeit not a very efficient one. An efficient foil creates maximum lift and minimizes drag. A flat rudder can create the lift but without a curved leading edge it also creates a lot of drag.

Reading the book was somewhat painful because it added hours of projects to my "things to do list". One of the big ones is to take a look at the leading edge of my keel. The leading edge on Impromptu is somewhat the worse for wear - there are dings and nicks and a very bad patch job from a rock I hit the first day I owned the boat. The uneven leading edge can create drag which will slow down the boat in a number of ways. Once it's warm again I'll be fairing the first third of my keel.

Cheers

Michael

 

[dc27]

Am I correct in thinking we can keep more sail up in higher winds with a larger rudder? That we will gain greater control of the boat? I have an E 32 MK III 1985. Thanks
West

yes, you are correct.

i've been following this thread with interest, with an eye toward getting the most out of my dear little Lotus. admittedly, i'm a chronic tinkerer with little idea what i'm doing, usually to the detriment of my bank account and standing among peers. and an inexperienced sailor at best. nevertheless, the comments in this thread have suggested that among the range of options for improving our beloved old Ericsons, some models would indeed benefit -- in a real, objective sense -- from a rudder improved over the smallish stock design.

so i had an interesting exchange with a sailmaker recently, in which i asked whether "bigger rudder, more sail" in fact made sense to optimize the boat's speed and handling generally. the sailmaker's answer was candid: that i'd be best served by improving my sailing skills -- specifically, reefing my 135 sooner to de-power the boat and keep her off her ear -- rather than looking for mechanical improvement through a new rudder. his arguments were quite detailed and made sense on their face, and i certainly don't mean to impugn his expertise. but he suggested that i should simply accept the inherent limitations of the classic old 27 -- which he described as a "neat" boat, fun to race and fairly rated for its vintage and design -- and leave my money in the bank. (he also tactfully declined to sell me a sail.)

now, i make allowance that my sailing skills are pretty rough, and that the thrill my girlfriend and i get heeling in a brisk breeze probably runs counter to actual speed and VMG. (and the question of appropriate jib for conditions is its own discussion.) but the comments in this thread imply that there are real, tangible benefits to a modified rudder on a 27 (among other models), quantifiable improvements to handling both upwind and down that would be manifest whether racing or just cruising, and no matter whose hand was on the tiller – mine, or someone who actually knows what they''re doing.

is this not correct? i guess i'm looking for reassurance.

 

[Seth]

Sailmaker is right

For sure, when we say a bigger rudder provides better control, we are not necessarily saying "more sail", or "reef later". It seems as though you are learning that sailing around with too much sail up is slow and uncomfortable (and shows a lack of skill), and those of us who are interested in optimizing performance will have the "right" sail combination up for a given condition, and enjoy the performance and comfort benefits that go with it..

Furthermore, I think you have a 27, which is not one of the usual suspects for this mod (35-2 and 32-2 are the primary ones), so I would not even consider it.

The only time when this idea of carrying more sail might apply is for a racer, who pushes hard with a spinnaker in big breeze. He/She may have sufficient added control in these conditions to allow a larger kite to be carried (and remain under control) into higher winds than without the mod..When sailing upwind, you MIGHT get a bit more control when you are overpowered, but you will still be way overpowered, so the answer here is the right sail combo-not the bigger rudder

What the rudder mod does provide:

1). More lift and surface area. which means a reduced tendency for the bow to "hunt" around when pressed, and when it does, you can get it to stop much more easily, since the rudder will "bite" harder (I hate to use that analogy)..also the increase in lift will help your upwind net performance-meaning less leeway, and better VMG upwind..but only when not overpowered!

2). More precise response under power in tight quarters..


Happy Trails!

S

 

[msc1212]

I haven't followed up on my new rudder. Since my last post -which showed pictures of my disassembled rudder post prior to shipping to Foss- I received my rudder about eight weeks after I sent it. It arrived nicely crated and with an invoice that was exactly what they quoted me at the beginning. I installed it about eight weeks ago just prior to putting the boat in the water. Reinstalling it was fairly straight forward except for the inevitable need to grow a third arm and at least five more fingers to re-instal the bolts that attach the quadrant to the post. The result of this rudder extension has been nothing short of awesome. The boat is faster, points higher and is much more maneuverable. On the weekend I was pointing higher and with better speed than a Viking 33 and a Beneteau 35. Last year the same boats pointed higher than me. At the start of races our ability to maneuver has been dramatically improved.

The rudder cost me a 6 second penalty on my PHRF rating. I fell from 177 to 171 for NFS and to 151 for flying Sail. This 6 seconds is a small price to pay for the improvement.

I've posted images of the rudder extension compared with the original rudder. These photos were used in my application to PHRF.

 

[Phil MacFarlane]

Same rudder I have. So glad your happy with it. To bad about the rating hit but still, well worth it.

Phil

 

[Mr. Scarlett]

Has anyone who has upgraded their rudder done anything to beef up the tube inside the boat? Maybe glassed in three or four equally spaced gussets?
I'd like to tack this onto my "in the next year or two list" as a reward for tackling the blisters.

 

[Seth]

Has anyone who has upgraded their rudder done anything to beef up the tube inside the boat? Maybe glassed in three or four equally spaced gussets?
I'd like to tack this onto my "in the next year or two list" as a reward for tackling the blisters.

Not sure why that would be necessary unless you have had a pre-existing structural problem with the rudder post..I don't think the new rudders cause any greater stress in the post, in fact, maybe a little less. I would consider upgrading the rudder bearings for less slop and better "feel", but the post should be fine unless something happened before. This part of the structure has not been an issue for Ericsons that I recall

 

[Phil MacFarlane]

Yes.